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Author Topic: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor  (Read 23119 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #120 on: October 17, 2017, 08:17:00 PM »
Sorry TXCtaig,Can I ask you a question? I read this post not interally  during this year. But the question "CF vs RT" is regarding only about sourdough or saccharomyces cerevisiae ?

I think it applies to both though moreso to SD as it has orders of magnitude greater concentrations of LAB.
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Offline Jackitup

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #121 on: October 17, 2017, 09:27:25 PM »
Whats been frustrating is that there appears to be almost no research at temps lover than 20C which I guess isnt that surprising given that there isnt much mass commercial interest in cold fermenting

Craig, you make a great point at the end, and it made me think of all the books written of charcuterie! If people thought about about yeast fermentation as it relates to bread and pizza doughs in the same ways as is fermenting meats and sausages you would see more interest. Granted, going into aging meats, we already know it is going to take weeks or months but speaking to that "sweet" spot of optimum temps, there IS some similarities! Just need to get people thinking with a different mindset,  or am I reaching too far here......food for thought maybe???
Jon

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Offline Antilife

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #122 on: October 18, 2017, 01:44:42 AM »
I think it applies to both though moreso to SD as it has orders of magnitude greater concentrations of LAB.
if I can make my contribution to this post I can confirm that RT has more flavors than CF. After 2 years of use and intensive study with sourddough i classificate that many LABS as a feature die below 14 degrees or completely stop working, so the passage in fridge kills these labs by increasing the development of wild yeasts that produce acetic acid but do not have the development of LAB's flavors. In my opinion (and of other Italian  professionals) the mother's yeast dough should never be put into the fridge to allow Lactic and not acetic development. If using the fridge is inevitable, then add a small percentage of Saccharomyces. The dough with sourdough at RT is my favorite mix, but requires carefulness not to create acidity. I think differently regarding brew' yeast dough, because it does not have any problems with CF except slowdown. Always my personal taste probably the ambient temperature will give more flavours, but the fridge gives greater lightness and taste.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 01:49:58 AM by Antilife »

Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #123 on: November 09, 2017, 07:56:07 AM »
Antilife and Craig: what are the temperatures that you using for your CF and RT fermentations?

Offline Antilife

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #124 on: November 09, 2017, 08:02:39 AM »
Antilife and Craig: what are the temperatures that you using for your CF and RT fermentations?
CF 3/5. RT Temp is variable to hours i want to give to balls. Usual 18/22
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:06:13 AM by Antilife »

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #125 on: November 09, 2017, 08:54:38 AM »
Antilife and Craig: what are the temperatures that you using for your CF and RT fermentations?

For my SD Neapolitan, I use 60-65F.

For most doughs with IDY, I use my ambient temp with is 76-77F
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline paulraphael

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #126 on: March 20, 2018, 12:00:11 PM »
Has anyone gotten their hands on Mhyrvold & Co's Modernist Bread epic?
http://modernistcuisine.com/books/modernist-bread/

I don't have the budget or shelf space, but have gotten a few recipes and read some discussion about it. There is information on cold fermenting. If anyone's done rigorous experimentation (with flavor and quality in mind) it's this team. I'm confident in them after having spent many years working with the original Modernist Cuisine series.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #127 on: March 20, 2018, 04:29:36 PM »
Let's see....Hmm, Modernist  Cuisine books for $625..or 10 bucks to be a Supporting Member here and learn  from and rub elbows  with world-class  pizza and bread makers? Tough call? Uh, nope. :-D

Offline sub

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #128 on: May 20, 2018, 03:04:30 AM »
Has anyone gotten their hands on Mhyrvold & Co's Modernist Bread epic?

Prefered method: wine refrigerator 14h @ 13C


Offline jvp123

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #129 on: August 13, 2018, 12:08:07 PM »
For my SD Neapolitan, I use 60-65F.

For most doughs with IDY, I use my ambient temp with is 76-77F

BTW, I made another "emergency" dough yesterday and again I scratch my head at how great it tasted.   IDY only for about 7-8 hrs between 62-72F.  I bulked it for about 4 hours and then re balled for around 4.  It was light and crispy too!   

Makes me wonder if my 2-3 day poolish CF dough is worth the time and effort.  :-D.    More testing ahead.  :'(
 
« Last Edit: August 13, 2018, 02:13:49 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #130 on: August 13, 2018, 12:57:38 PM »
LDM?

Offline jvp123

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #131 on: August 13, 2018, 02:12:29 PM »
LDM?

Yup.  1%.  On my longer CFs I have gone as low as .2%, but since this was short I went back up to 1%.
 
Bill, do you think the LDM adds much in terms of flavor?   Maybe that is one of the reasons it tasted great?

Jeff

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #132 on: August 13, 2018, 06:06:34 PM »
To me, absolutely..it's what makes it work. Kind of magical. I've done  four hour fermentations with 2% and liked the pies a lot...and I'm the guy who likes 5 day  RT/CF hybrids. Still do, but for a fast pie  this is a wonderful addition.

Offline jvp123

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #133 on: August 13, 2018, 06:20:06 PM »
To me, absolutely..it's what makes it work. Kind of magical. I've done  four hour fermentations with 2% and liked the pies a lot...and I'm the guy who likes 5 day  RT/CF hybrids. Still do, but for a fast pie  this is a wonderful addition.

Cool.  How much do you use on your 5 dayers since that should provide a lot of flavor and color on it's own?
Jeff

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #134 on: August 13, 2018, 09:54:32 PM »
Jeff...usually none, because most of my  long ferments are a combination of RT and CF.. and not sure why  but LDM  makes the dough nastily sticky even at small amounts. Others may disagree, but that's been my experience. I have had good results at .5% for 3 and even 4 days, on completely CF doughs.   

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #135 on: August 26, 2018, 02:06:53 PM »
Craig,

After rereading your post I was wondering if there might be a way to get he best of not. Worlds - room temperature for flavor and more rapid development and cold storage for management.

Do you think there are any negative aspects to developing a dough, say, 70 to 75% of the way then pushing the pause button by using refrigeration (assuming we are talking only about fresh yeast and no sourdough?)

Also, in your experience, is using poolish in combination with RT fermentation lead to noticeable improvement in flavor?

Im wondering if, for those of us that cant or dont want to develop dough for days in the refrigerator, quite a bit of flavor development can be achieved with a decent amount of prefermebted flour in the form of poolish (or even just room temp flour and water soak) along with a room temp final dough mix (say, in a 24h window) using only CF to manage the dough (ie, pause it when close to optimal development has been achieved.)

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #136 on: August 26, 2018, 03:15:23 PM »
You can of course combine them, but I don't know how it affects flavor. It is very common to proof a dough for bread in RT for 6-8 hours, then put it in the fridge for 12-36 hours and bake at your convenience.

I know, pizza isn't bread, just saying it's possible. I've used it s few times when my dough proofed faster than expect and was ready 12-24 hours before I wanted to use it. I think I could make some good pizzas that way if perfected. Maybe not 100% ideal for flavor, but many would probably think it's fine to sacrifice some flavor for easier scheduling.

I would think you still got a good flavor out of the dough. Maybe tenderness and dough qualities are what would suffer most. And maybe more so for Neapolitan than other styles.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2018, 03:25:37 PM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #137 on: August 26, 2018, 04:36:28 PM »
Lou,


While we're awaiting Craig on this one, I'll stick my head in the door (and sometimes, my foot in my mouth :-))


While this doesn't really apply to my NP dough (and I do know this is the NP category but the discussion seems to have broadened), my best doughs are a combination of RT and CF..at least I consider them my best. I've tried almost RT before CF, almost full RT after CF, but the best results I get are using about half the RT in front, then a CF period from 3 to 5, or sometimes 7 days, then additional RT as needed. I've found the latter can be done independent of pre-bake counter warmup, and if the least is low enough it barely factors in to fermentation.

As far as flavor, of course it's a totally individual perception, but I  prefer a dough that has RT over one that doesn't. Can I describe the flavor difference? Only that it's more complex , and has more :toasty' notes. I've also done head to head poolish vs no poolish for multi-day   RT/CF doughs. For my non-NP pies,  now I  always use a poolish. It's just my perception of course, but it's quite strong.




Offline thowi

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #138 on: May 02, 2019, 11:32:38 AM »
Great thread!
Thanks, Craig, for compiling all this research.

I don't even remotely know as much about this topic, but I'll try to summarize:
  • Temperature has an influence on the activity of yeast, bacteria (LAB), enzymes (e.g. Arrhenius equation).
  • Concentration (amount) and time are the other major contributors.
  • Yeast shows the highest activity at ~27C. Stops at ~36.
  • LAB show the highest activity at ~32-33C. Stops at ~42C. (other LAB might be different).
  • Enzymes work all the way up to ~70C.
  • Up until ~25C LAB and yeast activity growth is very similar relative to temperature.
  • However, some bacteria stop working or die at low temperatures (e.g. below 15C).
  • We can compensate lower temperatures with longer fermentation time.
  • => So between 5C and 25C we should get similar results, with the biggest difference coming from some (which?) bacteria that don't work at low temperatures.
  • => We can boost LAB products/flavors by fermenting > 15C. Might also produce some off-flavors though.
  • We also typically compensate time/temp with a different concentration of yeast. It's less common to add more enzymes or LAB.
  • => We can boost yeast products/flavors by adding more yeast (and not adding more LAB) and cutting down time and/or temp.
  • => We can boost enzymatic products/flavors by adding the yeast later and giving the enzymes more time to work.

So bottom-line: There are ways to boost enzymes, LAB, and yeast. It's subjective which flavors you like best (those produced by enzymes, LAB, or yeast) and you can balance them to your taste using different temperatures, yeast concentrations, and yeast timing.

That makes sense?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Fermentation: a science-based look suggests RT is better for flavor
« Reply #139 on: May 02, 2019, 11:46:54 AM »
I'm not sure many of these things lend themselves well to summarizing.

At the end of the day, these things may or may not be interesting, however the most important factor in making great pizza by FAR is hands-on experience (and #2, whatever it is, isn't even close - almost to the point of being irrelevant).
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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