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Author Topic: WFO made in Poland  (Read 6298 times)

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Offline ImmortalJellyfish

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WFO made in Poland
« on: September 07, 2016, 08:19:01 AM »
Hello everyone!

My name is Jakub, I'm from Poland, I've just started building my pizza oven and I love pizza :) I'm located in Kraków - former capitol of Poland. I work in IT business and I have no idea how to build "real" things like pizza oven!

I've started from doing research how to build oven and now I have general idea. Oven will be at my in-laws garden which is 65 km from me so I have time only during the weekends and not in everyone. I'm going to finish my oven in spring because... winter is coming ;)

I was inspired by these people

shuboyje http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13681.0.html
Protoolskaiser http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32618.0
Fagilia http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22618.0
MotoMannequin http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42027.0

Since I love Detlefs appearance of the oven I would like to build similar. I have few people who support my project:

My father - "everything should be correct to the millimeter"
My father in law - "lets just do it right now!"
My mother in law - "lets deal with this problem in a rational and well-considered manner"
My fiancee - "It has to be beautiful!"

Still have few questions but the hardest thing is to start so let's go!

In Poland we have negative temperatures and during this time soil moves and can have negative affect on foundation. I've found map of "frozen soil zone in Poland" and my oven is located in 1m depth zone. So I had to dig 1m deep hole, then put gravel, concrete blocks and filled all gaps with concrete. It was 7 hours digging and 2 hours playing with the blocks.


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 09:16:50 AM »
I have few people who support my project:

My father - "everything should be correct to the millimeter"
My father in law - "lets just do it right now!"
My mother in law - "lets deal with this problem in a rational and well-considered manner"
My fiancee - "It has to be beautiful!"

While all of these folks are important, I think you need a 5th person - "the oven's design and construction materials have to be right."
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Neopolitan

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 11:54:25 AM »
With the cold climate it would be much better to build the oven in a shelter or housing!
Otherwise you can only use the oven during nice weather.
You and your family will maybe neglect the oven because you only use it during ideal situations.
Offcourse when building it in the house or near the house or garage in a shelter make shure the WFO is safe!
Is the location you planned wel thought of?
Easy to reach from the prepping station/kitchen?
Is there no wind directed towards the oven mouth?
Is the oven protected from foul weather and rain?

Actualy building it under the nice veranda with Greek colums would be a beautiful location (T please Your Fiancee :P)

Case
« Last Edit: September 08, 2016, 11:59:02 AM by Neopolitan »

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2016, 05:45:43 AM »
I've removed some soil and covered a hole with 10 cm layer of gravel and put building foil. Few days before I bought metal pipes (Ų 8 mm) and made reinforcement. Next I poured the base slab 150 cm wide and 170 cm long. 

Next steps:

1. Build a walls
2. Pour 10 cm concrete slab
3. Pour 10 cm perlite slab but only under the heart of oven. 25 kg of cement + 200 dm3 perlite + 45 dm³ water = thermal conductivity 0.066 W/m2K.

I examine the matter of bricks for soldiers and floor. I've found some nice firebricks with thermal conductivity 0.12 W/m2K but after I wrote to the manufacturer asking about if they can come into contact with food he wrote back that absolutely no.

Now I check clinker bricks. Is surface of this brick is OK for the floor? Is it good idea to use fireclay brick to build dome?

Also I have project of the mouth of the oven. Now I have to find someone who will produce it for me :)

While all of these folks are important, I think you need a 5th person - "the oven's design and construction materials have to be right."

I will try to be this 5th person with help of folks from this forum I hope so.

With the cold climate it would be much better to build the oven in a shelter or housing!
Otherwise you can only use the oven during nice weather.
You and your family will maybe neglect the oven because you only use it during ideal situations.
Offcourse when building it in the house or near the house or garage in a shelter make shure the WFO is safe!
Is the location you planned wel thought of?
Easy to reach from the prepping station/kitchen?
Is there no wind directed towards the oven mouth?
Is the oven protected from foul weather and rain?

Actualy building it under the nice veranda with Greek colums would be a beautiful location (T please Your Fiancee :P)

Case

The house is not inhabited and there is no kitchen. For now its only for holidays.
Oven is located near the terrace on the hill with nice view. I couldn't build it under veranda because there is no space for this size oven. Greek columns are a symbol of my fathers in law youth :D
I will build some prepping station near the oven but this is future.
I had not thought about the direction of the wind. Front of the oven will be located from the side of terrace.
It will be fully built up.


Total cost: $223
« Last Edit: September 10, 2016, 06:43:04 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2016, 12:24:09 PM »
Do yourself a favour and if possible make sure your ovenmouth is not facing into the regular wind direction!
I made the mistake of building a WFO in Greece were thewind does disturb the convection in the oven. With strong gusts it could even extinguish or worse start a fire outside of the oven because of fliyng sparks.
Lukely there is very little wind on the Island I build the oven. And Build a windscreen that protects the ovens mouth.
Did you think about the WFO floor height?  (Operators Elbow height)



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Offline Neopolitan

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2016, 12:41:08 PM »
The bricks for the floor are very important. If the distubitor says there not suited for food then I think they might have Chemical contents or maybe they are poluted?
Old handmade bricks usually contain pure clay an can be used for the oven interior. But if they are reused who knows if they are save for food preperation.
Did you read about the possitif experiences with the Biscotto di sorento tiles on this forum?
Biscotto or unglazed terra-cotta tiles would be a much better floor if you want to make Neapolitan pizza.


Do you have a design for your oven dome?

Case

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2016, 05:17:36 AM »
Hello!

Last week I was able to build walls from concrete blocks and pour the concrete slab. I did it in the same way like this on bottom. Now I think that 10 cm of perlite layer could be not enough... when I read about floor insulation sometimes it's 10 cm and sometimes it's 30 cm. Any idea?

I've found firebricks with nice thermal conductivity 0.41 W/m2K, they are made from pure clay but their surface is porous (is not smooth) and I think it's not good for baking pizza. I saw Biscotto di Sorrento pictures and it seams that they are smooth.

The bricks for the floor are very important. If the distubitor says there not suited for food then I think they might have Chemical contents or maybe they are poluted?
Old handmade bricks usually contain pure clay an can be used for the oven interior. But if they are reused who knows if they are save for food preperation.
Did you read about the possitif experiences with the Biscotto di sorento tiles on this forum?
Biscotto or unglazed terra-cotta tiles would be a much better floor if you want to make Neapolitan pizza.

Do you have a design for your oven dome?

Case

Biscotto di sorento are out of my reach but you gave me some idea writing about terracotta. I've found that floor should be comprised of roughly 35% alumina and 50% silica and It's good to add some tuff (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23596.msg365994) and water glass... anyway I have to investigate more about this and then I will decide if I do floor by myself.

For now I know that internal diameter will be 80 cm and height of dome will be 40 cm.

Total cost: $245
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 09:37:48 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline Neopolitan

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2016, 08:39:19 AM »
You can never ad to much insulation on or under your WFO! The more insulation the faster it will reach baking temperature the temperature can be higher then in a poor insulated dome you will have a lower wood consumption (Saving cost or time) and your oven will hold the heat longer so that you can bake effectively after the fire has been removed.
For Pizza You don't want a large massa to safe all the above so with a smaller massa You could use less insulation.
Biscotto di Sorentto is not really smooth, at least on the the side and undersides and  It is poreus and combined with low conductivity it easily soaks up the heat protecting the pizza bottom from burning at the high temperatures used for Pizza Napoletana.
For Bread baking a more conductive floor is needed because of the low temperatures of baking bread.
The poreous nature of Biscotto makes it fragile and you should design your oven in such a way that you can remove the floor easily after it is damaged beyond use (5 to 10 years depending on the usage)
Look at Subs post on the Traditional Neapolitan Forno builders.
Making your own floor is quit a challenge look at the old post on recreating Biscotto Also by Sub if I remember correctly.

Choises, choises!

Case
« Last Edit: September 19, 2016, 08:50:38 AM by Neopolitan »

Offline mrmrva

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2016, 04:49:29 AM »
Love topics like this, impatiently waiting for updates  :)

Offline MotoMannequin

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2016, 07:05:18 PM »
Looks like you're off to a great start.

I was told, "the hard part is done" when I finished the stand. That is true in a way, that the most back-breaking labor is done, but now the detail work begins, and that takes time.

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Offline ImmortalJellyfish

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2016, 12:16:38 PM »
Weather in Poland broke down - we have lots of rain and temperature is low. I have written lots of emails to companies that do things from steel and all offers where way away of my budget until I've found the guy who produces parts for ships and he also wants to build pizza oven! We talked for a long time and I shared with him everything I know about the oven for example to use perlit under the floor instead of broken glass like he thought. Anyway he will have done two pieces of mouth of the oven till the end of October (one for me and one for him).

Second thing is that I've decided to do the floor by myself. I did some reserch about the clay and I found one which should be OK:

Chemical analysis

SiO2 56% - 58%
Al2O3  35% - 37%
TiO2 max 1,4%
Fe2O3 2,4% - 2,8%
CaO max 0,5$
MgO max 0,6%
Na2O + K2O 1,6% - 2,2%

The mineral composition

Kaolinite  min. 70%
Ilit max 24,0%
Quartz max 4,0%
loss on ignition 12,0% - 14,0%

On university in my city we have "Department of Materials Science and Ceramics" and now I'm trying to find someone with deep knowledge about ceramics from this department. Ceramics is pretty popular in Poland and there are lots of places when you can "burn the product" - I found a place where I can burn big enought pieces (quarter circle with a diameter of 80 cm).

Things I have to figure out:

- Do I have to add water glass to clay to prevent shrinking of product during drying and burning ceramics (http://www.handprintpress.com/authors/diy-earthen-castable-refractory/)
- How water glass affects on thermal conductivity?
- How to make product which is porous inside and smooth outside. I think more porous product is, more thermal conductivity it is.
- Do I have to add volcanic ash? If yes, how much?

Next I'm planing to buy ground clay and form small brick, then I will make bigger stone for my electric oven and then I will decide if I'm able to make my Biscotto ;)

Offline mrmrva

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2016, 01:45:31 PM »
- How to make product which is porous inside and smooth outside. I think more porous product is, more thermal conductivity it is.

More porous = less conductive

Offline sub

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2016, 02:14:03 PM »

- Do I have to add water glass to clay to prevent shrinking of product during drying and burning ceramics (http://www.handprintpress.com/authors/diy-earthen-castable-refractory/)


No It's just a mix of water / clay / pozzolan.

Offline mrmrva

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2016, 03:15:35 PM »
Maybe this can help in your attempt to make something similar to original biscotto. It can give you rough estimate at what density to aim at.

http://www.azom.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=1567

These conductivity values are for ambient temp for sure, don't know how much it would rise for neapolitan temps.

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2016, 05:35:32 PM »
@mrmrva thanks for link. It will be helpful but finally I would like to test thermal conductivity using professional equipment but I don't know if it will be possible.

Based on this publication http://ljs.academicdirect.org/A14/074_077.pdf the thermal conductivity depends on the moisture and additives for example ash.

@sub from other thread I know that you were experimenting with biscotto by yourself. What proportion of pozzolan did you use?

I found this about floor:

Quote
Medium duty firebrick. This is the brick that we recommend for both the cooking floor and dome of the Pompeii oven. medium duty firebricks are comprised of roughly 35% alumina and 50% silica, heat up quickly, easily withstand the 900F heat your oven will reach, and are designed for the rapid heat-up and cool down (thermal cycling) that your oven will experience.

If my clay contains

SiO2 56% - 58%
Al2O3  35% - 37%

Do I need to add pozzolan?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2016, 03:04:46 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

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Offline mrmrva

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2016, 04:57:42 AM »
Of course it depends on moisture but you need your floor completely dry to avoid cracking due to water expansion when heated. Bellow is table with values for brick depending on moisture content




Offline Neopolitan

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 06:31:01 PM »
In my countries language you call the mixed, kneaded and dried ceramics ready to be baked in a ceramic oven "Biscuit"
French for Biscotto.

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2016, 03:47:33 PM »
I've bought mentioned clay, next I've made small brick frame and bigger frame for pizza stone to my electric oven. Today I mixed clay with water and I decided not to use pozzolan:

Quote
Natural pozzolans with a high content of SiO2 + Al2O3 (≥80%) but a low content of MgO and SO3....

My clay has 91% - 95%  of SiO2 + Al2O3 and MgO max 0.6.

In my first try I added little water and I couldn't remove frame. In second I added more water but when I tried to remove frame it appears that clay was to sticky thats why I gave up this idea. I will wait untill it will be drier and then I will remove frame and also I will try to make it more smooth.

Any ideas how long should it dry before it goes to oven?

Next week I'm going to visit Southeast Asia so it will dry at least till 25 of November (21 days). Also I called the man who supposed to done me a mouth of the oven - I have to wait some more time....


Offline Neopolitan

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #18 on: November 05, 2016, 07:33:44 AM »
Biscotto di Polania!

In the video's on these hand made bricks they usually remove the form immidetialy after shaping.
Maybe because they need to produce a lot. Or maybe so it doesn't tear from sticking while shrinking.

The clay needs to be fully dried before baking ask a ceramic baker (You need one anyway for the baking I suppose?) From long time memory this should be about a week, but it depends on the volume, climate and clay i would say.



Good luck, Do you have a ceramic oven available?
« Last Edit: November 05, 2016, 07:45:02 AM by Neopolitan »

Offline mrmrva

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Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2016, 05:32:04 AM »
Did you wet the frame before putting clay in? Concrete sticks to wood if dry, maybe it is same with clay

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