A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: WFO made in Poland  (Read 6299 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline IIFYMpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 232
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2016, 05:50:20 AM »
I am so excited to see my countryman taking on such a fascinating task, fingers crossed i will look very closely in this thread to see your progress as i am flirting with the idea of building my own WFO.

Mam nadzieje, że będe mgł liczyć na Twoją poradę. Pki co czas na zimowy research by wiosną nie tracić czasu.

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2017, 04:15:30 AM »
It's time to write about my progress. During this time I was working on my biscotto and design of oven dome. Brick and pizza stone has dried and shrunk (brick 9%, stone 13% from every side). It needs at least 3 weeks do be dry. I haven't burned it out because of Christmas time and now the lady who owns oven is ill but it doesn't matter because I didn't write down proportions water to clay so I don't know how much it will shrink. I decided to go on with biscotto.

Frame for biscotto was made by student of sculptures in wood. It's 6cm high and side length of 48 cm. It will shrink and after all I will have to cut it to 40 cm. I've made first two biscottos, I've wet frame but it didn't want to move away from the side so I waited 4 days and the move the frame away. In next days I'll make all biscottos.

With my father I designed oven dome. Didn't find how how exactly inscribe eclipse in the oven so I did it like on pictures. I also have a picture how I'll draw eclipse on wooden board and what angle I'll cut soldier course bricks.

Courtesy of my friend I took a course in bakery. I worked there on Friday and night shift on Saturday. All dough they make they make by hands no machines. I was involved almost in all processes :)

Total cost: $255

Mam nadzieje, że będe mgł liczyć na Twoją poradę. Pki co czas na zimowy research by wiosną nie tracić czasu.

Oczywiście, radzę zacząć już teraz :)


« Last Edit: January 12, 2017, 04:22:48 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline IIFYMpizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 232
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2017, 06:58:01 AM »
Didnt you want to make more of a flat shaped dome at the center? If i recall correctly this is what Marco addvised to do. See the picture below, credit to Marco ofc.


Offline drogus

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Poland/Germany
  • Pizza Napoletana for life! ;)
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2017, 05:23:03 PM »

Offline shuboyje

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1335
  • Location: Detroit
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2017, 09:19:55 AM »
Not to disagree with Marco, but that design has no structural stability and would only be feasible in a cast oven.  I personally go the simple route and use a small chain to layout a catenary section for all my ovens.
-Jeff

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2017, 02:39:23 PM »
Now I'm consufed... first time I meet with idea of internal height like Marco posted: d / 3.4 - in my case 80 cm / 3.4 = 23.5 cm and my soldier course brick has 25 cm height minus 5 cm for the floor it's 20 cm so the dome would be extremely low.

From Forno Bravo Pompeii eBook I have:

Interior Diameter: 36
Interior Height: 14.5

Interior Diameter: 42
Interior Height: 15.5

And form this site http://www.traditionaloven.com/building.html:

Quote
Dome internal height (Vault) to entry door height ratio must be properly calculated. For best achieved burning in your ovens, this is very important to have both height measurements right. When you have your job done, you want the fire to burn well inside. This ratio is 62% to 64%. Most precise example for home oven:
Entry door height: 10 inch (25.4cm)
Vault height (internal): 16 inch (40.6cm)


@shuboyje: what did you mean by writing?:
Quote
...small chain to layout a catenary section for all my ovens

Is my drawing is correct and I can go on with this idea?   :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 03:13:01 PM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline drogus

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Poland/Germany
  • Pizza Napoletana for life! ;)
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2017, 03:23:02 PM »
Not to disagree with Marco, but that design has no structural stability and would only be feasible in a cast oven.  I personally go the simple route and use a small chain to layout a catenary section for all my ovens.

From what I can see on photos, most of the Neapolitan ovens have rather low dome, for example in this post and the next one: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26441.msg388374#msg388374

Offline drogus

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Poland/Germany
  • Pizza Napoletana for life! ;)
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2017, 03:35:27 PM »
Now I'm consufed... first time I meet with idea of internal height like Marco posted: d / 3.4 - in my case 80 cm / 3.4 = 23.5 cm and my soldier course brick has 25 cm height minus 5 cm for the floor it's 20 cm so the dome would be extremely low.

From Forno Bravo Pompeii eBook I have: (...)

Pompeii is not a neapolitan style oven. You will make a good pizza there, no doubt, but in order to achieve very short baking times like 60s (or even less then that) a lower dome is considered a best practice. Regarding your calculations, Marco also mentioned that the smallest size he would build is 42"/107cm diameter, but I'm not sure if that's because smaller ovens would be too low with this diameter, or is there anything else to consider.

All that said, I'm not an expert in that matter, so maybe you will be able to do neapolitan style bake times in pompeii as well.

Offline drogus

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Poland/Germany
  • Pizza Napoletana for life! ;)
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2017, 06:02:39 PM »
I just saw this topic created by sub about a small oven with a 60cm diameter and it looks like the dome is more towards neapolitan style. I guess maybe the answer for you is to build something similar, so put the first row of bricks vertically and then build the dome as an oblate sphere, not as a sphere as in pompeii. So maybe it won't be d/3.4, but at least it will be lower than the oven with spherical shape.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2017, 06:35:47 PM by drogus »

Offline drogus

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Poland/Germany
  • Pizza Napoletana for life! ;)
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2017, 09:09:49 AM »
While going through Omid's thread I noticed this oven: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg237914#msg237914, it's 80cm diameter Ferrara's oven. Quick google search gave me only this leaflet with specs, but unfortunately it doesn't say what's internal height. Maybe if you e-mail them, they'll be kind enough to tell you that?

One other thing that I found is that specs for 120cm version and specs for 140cm version both state 40.5cm as internal height. Also, all of their ovens have the same external height, so maybe they do 40.5cm height for all their ovens? Again, I'm not an expert in WFOs, but it seems that maybe the shape of the dome might be more important than the height.

While searching for the specs, I also found this topic on one of italian forums, where someone says that for 80cm diameter the internal height should be 30cm (and generally between 25 and 40cm). Not sure about the credibility of the author, though.


A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline MotoMannequin

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 303
  • Location: Livermore, CA
    • My Photography Website
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2017, 07:54:27 PM »
My take on this is that the Neopolitan specs are ideal when applied to 48-56" oven (120-140cm) and start to not work well below 42" (105cm). You will have to compromise somewhere for an 80cm oven, but the critical measurement is the door opening from 62-65% of the dome height. You may start with your door height and work backwards from there.

If you want a flatter dome, with structural stability, you should research the 3-centered arch shape as your cross-section. Personally, I just went elliptical on my build.

This is a great thread so far. I'm fascinated by your making your own biscotto.

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #31 on: April 29, 2017, 02:41:53 AM »
Hello!

My mission of making biscotti has failed. There were few things why this happend:
  • I moved biscotti before they completely dried and they grimaced
  • Because I had one frame and for some reason I couldn't took it off from clay after forming biscotti I was making them at several weekly intervals the density of clay was different and every biscotti had different dimensions.
  • (I think) Because I didn't put the newspaper underneath they stuck to the floor and I had lots of splashes.
  • I gave the test bricks to burn out and first what they did they they gave them a negative temperature and they broke. Conclusion was that there is to much air inside and I would break during burning. 

This is not the end :) I order Saputo but this summer I will try to do biscotti again considering my experience.

The weather in my region is total disaster. Two weeks ago there were negative temperatures and It has been raining for this two weeks so I couldn't do anything in the field.

Meanwhile I've bought perlite, I plan to pour 10 cm slab and on this slab place biscotti. Do you think this insulation is enough? I was thinking to put ceramic board like but what the difference between board and perlite slab?

Also I've bought bricks for soldier course and cut them, after that I think I've found better firebricks with 36% of Al2O3 so my oven will be colorful from inside. I've printed drawing of dome shape cut a frame.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 02:48:57 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2017, 05:43:25 AM »
To cut costs, with one of this forum member we've bought biscotto from here https://www.facebook.com/FornaceSaputoBiscottodiCasapullaArtigianale/?fref=ts. It was 80 EUR for four pieces (80 cm diameter). They are 4.7 cm high.

I've put insulating board on perlite slab and on this board soldier course plus biscotto. I used salt to level biscotto an fireproof mortar to connect soldiers - didn't know its white :)

Most of the time oven is covered with foil.

Total cost: $744


« Last Edit: May 28, 2017, 06:47:05 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2017, 03:41:21 AM »
Hello everyone!

Week ago I banded soldiers with a metal strings and I used a roman screws to make a tension. I also made sand form with little help of plastic bottles. My wooden circle to shape a dome worked perfectly :D To make it stand strait I used flipped kitchen sink strainer attached to the wooden board plus metal pipe. After one week construction looks very solid.

Yesterday I managed to finish the dome. I hope that I put bricks correctly... I have some doubts where they are in a straight line on top of each other. What do you think?

The next step is curing the oven. Can't wait to do it :)

I'm planning a ceramic chimney which will be square outside and round inside.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 04:44:35 AM by ImmortalJellyfish »

Offline vtsteve

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Location: Vermont, USA
  • If my pizza is wrong, I don't want to be right!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2017, 08:20:18 AM »
Yesterday I managed to finish the dome. I hope that I put bricks correctly... I have some doubts where they are in a straight line on top of each other. What do you think?


Added:
If it's the gypsum type that comes premixed in a bucket and never becomes water resistant, then you are out of luck -- it will probably collapse the first time it gets wet.   :'(


If your fireproof mortar is a calcium aluminate type that you mix yourself from dry powder ("Ciment Fondu", sets very hard and waterproof) then you should be OK. It's better if the joints don't align so much.

It will probably crack, but they all do, and they still bake fine. :)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2017, 12:29:29 PM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.
My wood-fired NY thread: Pizza Thursday

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2017, 04:28:59 PM »
I can't check at the moment if it's calcium aluminate type but it's waterproof, fireproof and frost-proof. It is designed for the construction of chimneys, garden grills and open fireplaces. Idea is that the oven will never get wet - it will have walls and a roof :) Now everytime I finish work I cover it by foil. Wonder how I'll do this if oven will be hot  ???

About cracks... if they appear should I fill them with mortar?

Offline vtsteve

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Location: Vermont, USA
  • If my pizza is wrong, I don't want to be right!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2017, 10:24:37 PM »
Since your mortar is intended for outdoor use, it should be fine.   :)

About cracks... if they appear should I fill them with mortar?

Unless pieces are falling out (structural cracks), or flames/smoke are passing through your insulation, it's not necessary to fill cracks. It's a pretty forgiving technology. :)
In grams we trust.
My wood-fired NY thread: Pizza Thursday

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2017, 08:23:55 AM »
Yesterday I pulled out the sand and I started first small fire. After few hours very small cracks started to go out - every time this happened there was loud crack and there was a lot of steam coming outside the dome. Next day I've been curing oven for over 7 hours and new bigger cracks appeared but nothing to worried about... yet :)

Dome from inside doesn't look great. I thing I've used to much force when laying bricks. Secondly mortar I've used was to dense and it didn't filled gaps very well - maybe I will fill them form inside, what do you think?

Now I'm waiting until the oven cools down so it's time for cold beer ;)

https://www.youtube.com/embed/tYx6dm7STeI

PS: how to embed youtube video



Offline vtsteve

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Location: Vermont, USA
  • If my pizza is wrong, I don't want to be right!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2017, 08:56:07 AM »
You are heating it too quickly, too soon, and damaging the oven!

You shouldn't be getting visible steam on Day One; the idea is to warm it *slowly* -- I started by leaving a 250W work light in the dome for a few days before I even built the first fire.

See this reply: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47997.msg484215#msg484215

Filling from the inside usually fails; the crack opens again and the patch falls out. You'll probably have a few cracks worth patching from the *outside* though, once you're finished curing (I wouldn't bother doing it before).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2017, 09:12:57 AM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.
My wood-fired NY thread: Pizza Thursday

Offline ImmortalJellyfish

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 22
  • Location: Poland
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: WFO made in Poland
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2017, 09:23:45 AM »
It was standing for one week under the foil. Yesterday there was about 190 F  / 90 C under the dome and today It was about 300 F / 150 C. I used this instruction https://www.fornobravo.com/pompeii-oven/curing/ (today is day one, yesterday was day zero)

Maybe I was so wet because It was under the foil?  :-\ Its very hard to keep low temperature.




A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress