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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #20 on: March 07, 2011, 09:19:38 AM »
matermark,

My numbers may be a little bit different because I used the conversion data built into the dough calculating tool I used.

Peter

Offline Kreetak

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2019, 03:43:00 PM »
John,

Here is the formulation for a single dough batch (16 oz.) for use with a 12" pan:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.555%):
ADY (1.18518%):
Salt (0.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (2.35155%):
Total (166.11372%):
277.16 g  |  9.78 oz | 0.61 lbs
153.98 g  |  5.43 oz | 0.34 lbs
3.28 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
2.43 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
11.84 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.61 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
5.2 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.3 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
6.52 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 4.53 tsp | 1.51 tbsp
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

For a dough batch (32 oz.) to make two pizzas, this is the dough formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (55.555%):
ADY (1.18518%):
Salt (0.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (2.35155%):
Total (166.11372%):
Single Ball:
554.32 g  |  19.55 oz | 1.22 lbs
307.95 g  |  10.86 oz | 0.68 lbs
6.57 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.74 tsp | 0.58 tbsp
4.85 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
23.68 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.21 tsp | 1.74 tbsp
10.39 g | 0.37 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.61 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
13.04 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 9.07 tsp | 3.02 tbsp
920.81 g | 32.48 oz | 2.03 lbs | TF = N/A
460.4 g | 16.24 oz | 1.01 lbs
Note: Bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

As you will note from the above, I used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

Good luck.

Peter

Hello Peter,

Can this recipe works for 48-72hours CF? Thank you!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2019, 04:13:20 PM »
Hello Peter,

Can this recipe works for 48-72hours CF? Thank you!

Kreetak,

My recollection is that the recipes you cited are intended to be used to make a dough that is subjected to some room temperature fermentation and also a cold fermentation period of up to about one day. So I tend to think that 1.18518% ADY is too high for a 48-72 hours cold fermentation. Can you tell me what the temperature of your refrigerator is? Based on that information I think we should be able to adjust the amount of ADY for a longer cold ferment.

Peter

Offline Kreetak

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #23 on: January 15, 2019, 03:20:57 PM »
Kreetak,

My recollection is that the recipes you cited are intended to be used to make a dough that is subjected to some room temperature fermentation and also a cold fermentation period of up to about one day. So I tend to think that 1.8518% ADY is too high for a 48-72 hours cold fermentation. Can you tell me what the temperature of your refrigerator is? Based on that information I think we should be able to adjust the amount of ADY for a longer cold ferment.

Peter

Peter,

The temperatura of my refrigerator it's about 3-4ºC.

Thank you!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #24 on: January 15, 2019, 04:49:44 PM »
Peter,

The temperatura of my refrigerator it's about 3-4ºC.

Thank you!

Kreetak,

As I understand it based on what I have read at https://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php and at Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4067.msg33990#msg33990, part of the dough preparation process is to allow the dough to warm up after being pressed into a pan and then refrigerating the dough (in the pan) after it has expanded to fill the pan. From that point, the dough and pan can be placed into the refrigerator for up to 24 hours.

In your case, you might want to use Craig's yeast quantity prediction chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 to determine the amount of ADY to use based on either a 48 hours of cold fermentation or 72 hours of cold fermentation. If you click on the chart, it will be enlarged.

At this point, I believe that you have two options. The first is to increase the amount of ADY from the value shown in Craig's table to allow sufficient time for the dough to rise in the pan as discussed in the two items cited above before refrigerating the dough. I am somewhat guessing here, but you might increase the amount of ADY from its value given in Craig's chart by about 10%. Unless you use a method to allow the dough to rise in the pan quickly, such as a proofing device, it is also likely that it may take some time for the dough to fill the pan--more than what is described in the two items cited above. Absent some kind of proofing device, a faster rise time would take quite a bit more ADY but would be too much if the dough is to then be cold fermented for two or three days.

The second option is to use the amount of ADY as given in Craig's chart and go directly to the refrigerator after the dough is pressed into the pan. When you are ready to use the dough to make a pizza, you should let the dough rise at room temperature after removing it from the refrigerator until the dough fills the pan as described in the items cited above. This step will take quite a bit longer than the first option because the dough will be cold rather than at room temperature.

I tend to think that the second option may be quite a bit easier than the first option.

You might also take a look at another chart that Craig came up with for a 48 hour cold fermented dough. That chart is at Reply 406 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511818#msg511818 (click to expand). The same two options should be available to you as discussed above but only for a 48-hour cold fermented dough. Again, the second option is likely to be the easier one.

Whichever way you decide to proceed, please let us know how things turn out. What you would like to do with the recipes you cited is something that has not been done before on this forum as best I can recall, so your experience might be of help to others who may want to make a version that involves a much longer cold fermentation period.

Good luck.

Peter

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2019, 01:47:01 AM »
Pete,

Do you let this proof in the pan and if so for how long?

And, how essential is the milk powder? I want to try making this but I don't have milk powder. I figure the lower hydration and decent amount of oil would get pretty close to this style of pie.

Also, what bake temp? I recently did a detroit style at 450 that was awesome but it took forever! 20+ minutes. I would maybe try this around 475 or no more than 500?

Offline wotavidone

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #26 on: November 24, 2019, 06:27:43 AM »
Can you just substitute skim milk for some of the water?
I'd never heard of non-fat dry milk powder, so i looked it up and found out its what you get when you dry skim milk instead of full cream milk.


Offline norma427

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #27 on: November 24, 2019, 09:55:19 AM »
Pete,



And, how essential is the milk powder? I want to try making this but I don't have milk powder.


Lou,

Is this the dry milk powder?

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #28 on: November 24, 2019, 01:48:26 PM »
Pete,

Do you let this proof in the pan and if so for how long?

And, how essential is the milk powder? I want to try making this but I don't have milk powder. I figure the lower hydration and decent amount of oil would get pretty close to this style of pie.

Also, what bake temp? I recently did a detroit style at 450 that was awesome but it took forever! 20+ minutes. I would maybe try this around 475 or no more than 500?
Lou,

This is one of those cases where I tried to help members with PH clone dough formulations but, as best I can recollect, I never did try any of the formulations. Had I done so, I am certain that I would have followed the instructions given at https://www.pizzamaking.com/panpizza.php, if only to see if the instructions worked and produced a decent pizza. If members who successfully used the formulations I came up with see this thread, they may be able to better respond to your questions. 

As for the milk powder, the member who devised the original dough formulation, xPHmgr, did not know why the milk powder was used (for example, see Reply 16 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=213.msg1553#msg1553 and Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=213.msg1558#msg1558). But, to answer your question more directly, there are many benefits that milk, in either liquid or dry form, can convey to a pizza crust. Those benefits can be seen by going to the post at Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48803.msg490049#msg490049 and clicking on a few of the links directed to milk. You might narrow the search by looking at the posts and articles by Tom Lehmann. For example, this article by Tom seems to cast some doubt about the benefits of using too little dry milk powder, for example, below 5%:

https://www.pmq.com/adding-milk-to-pizza-dough

So, if I construed Tom's comments correctly, eliminating the dry milk powder may not have a meaningful effect on the final crust.

Peter


Offline MisterPKM

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #29 on: November 27, 2019, 12:12:03 AM »
Planning on trying the recipe in this thread revised for the 14 inch pan. Was wondering if anyone has tried putting cornmeal in the bottom of their pan for crunch like some places have.

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2019, 12:48:08 AM »
You would probably have to use less oil - I don't think you could do the oldschool PH style with all that oil and cornmeal.

I just made a dough that was
100% AP flour
55% cool water
4% oil
2% salt
1% sugar
0.5% IDY

Mixed, rested, balled, proofed for 2 hours, then pressed, panned and finished panning about an hour later. lots of oil in the pan. It's being held in the fridge right now.

Made my Prince Street style fra diavola for a sauce.

EDIT:
Baked today for luch. 500 degrees lower center rack for about 17 minutes.
Pros - bottom was super crispy and really nice,
Cons - crust was not "light/fluffy/crispy" like you want in a pan pizza. It was almost hard-cake like. I think this is largely due to the long low bake, and possibly the low hydration with alot of oil but I doubt the latter. Also, cheese was probably overcooked

Also, cooked sauce might not be right for this style. Pan pizza sauce should straddle the line between a fresh tomato sauce and paste based sauce. Cooked doesn't work for it but a "zesty" sauce with some seasoning would do well.

Any suggestions for getting a lighter, crisper, fluffier crust? My first thought is to boost the temp to 550f. I am also inclined to push the hydration a bit and drop the oil but I'm unsure. For example, with this pie, the untopped edge was pretty stiff and bread like. A Pizza hut pan pie is light and spongy, you can press on it, it crackles a bit and springs back. This was breadlike - you couldn't press it in.


Planning on trying the recipe in this thread revised for the 14 inch pan. Was wondering if anyone has tried putting cornmeal in the bottom of their pan for crunch like some places have.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 03:59:08 PM by hotsawce »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2019, 05:07:52 PM »
Milk... Or milk powder... Skim, low fat, don't matter... It will only give you very slight tenderness, and a bit more Browning of the rim... That's it.  🧐
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Offline MisterPKM

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2019, 07:04:14 PM »
Looked through several pages, but can't seem to find a consensus on quantity of sauce and cheese for a 14 inch round. I am going to try the Seeker of Magic Sauce recipe with paste, which I believe came from Jackie Tran here.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2019, 12:23:04 AM »
The old PH training video showed 5oz sauce for a 12” medium, which was 2 spoons. That would make a large 14” 7.5oz (3 spoons.) I like a little more - did around 6oz for my 12” so maybe 8 to 8.5 for a 14”.

Also re:milk powder - that small amount likely won’t address the issue I had. It was like someone baked angel food cake or something. I think I need to bake hotter (17 minutes is just way too long that’s approaching bread territory.)

Looked through several pages, but can't seem to find a consensus on quantity of sauce and cheese for a 14 inch round. I am going to try the Seeker of Magic Sauce recipe with paste, which I believe came from Jackie Tran here.

Offline MisterPKM

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2019, 01:07:02 AM »
Thank you!

Also, looking through the threads, I've realized I don't exactly have the same type of pan I believe the recipes were tested on. They seem to be in a deep dish pan and I have a 14 inch diameter, .85 inch, angled cutter pan from Lloyd. (https://lloydpans.com/pizza-tools/pizza-pans/cutter-pans.html)


Should I decrease my oil and dock my dough to avoid a mess or should it be good to go as is?

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Offline MisterPKM

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2019, 09:05:24 PM »
Made this tonight and may have been the most successful first run I've ever done. Going to up the cheese next time. The tomato paste sauce was so awesome once baked. Thanks y'all!


Offline hotsawce

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #36 on: November 30, 2019, 12:06:07 AM »
Details on the dough and bake time/temp?

I did a 56+2 pan pizza today that was a much better attempt, but I also baked hotter. It was definitely fluffier while being crisp, but still a little too “white bready” for me. I might increase the water again.

Made this tonight and may have been the most successful first run I've ever done. Going to up the cheese next time. The tomato paste sauce was so awesome once baked. Thanks y'all!

Offline MisterPKM

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #37 on: November 30, 2019, 10:54:23 AM »
Used this dough from Peter.

All room temp rise. Brought everything together in a mixer, let stand about 10 minutes to hydrate further, then kneaded with the hook for about 7-8 minutes until smooth. The resulting dough was actually tougher than I thought it would be, but after sitting out, covered, for 4 hours put it into a pan greased with 1.5 ounces of shortening. Let rise in the pan for another 4 hours.

Sprayed the dough edge with butter spray and topped with 8 ounces cheese and 8 ounces sauce. Baked in a 450 degree oven for 17 minutes-rotated halfway through.

Hope that helps!




Flour (100%):
Water (55.555%):
ADY (1.18518%):
Salt (0.875%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4.27199%):
Sugar (1.875%):
Dry Non-Fat Milk (2.35155%):
Total (166.11372%):
375.47 g  |  13.24 oz | 0.83 lbs
208.59 g  |  7.36 oz | 0.46 lbs
4.45 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
3.29 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.59 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
16.04 g | 0.57 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.53 tsp | 1.18 tbsp
7.04 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
8.83 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 6.14 tsp | 2.05 tbsp
623.7 g | 22 oz | 1.38 lbs | TF = N/A



Peter

Offline hotsawce

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #38 on: November 30, 2019, 02:11:25 PM »
It wasn't hard and crunchy at that bake time and temp? I did 500 for about the same time and it was very crunchy and hard...

Used this dough from Peter.

All room temp rise. Brought everything together in a mixer, let stand about 10 minutes to hydrate further, then kneaded with the hook for about 7-8 minutes until smooth. The resulting dough was actually tougher than I thought it would be, but after sitting out, covered, for 4 hours put it into a pan greased with 1.5 ounces of shortening. Let rise in the pan for another 4 hours.

Sprayed the dough edge with butter spray and topped with 8 ounces cheese and 8 ounces sauce. Baked in a 450 degree oven for 17 minutes-rotated halfway through.

Hope that helps!

Offline MisterPKM

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Re: A pie for tonight
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2019, 05:12:39 PM »
I would say it was more crisp than crunchy. It stood out straight when held, for sure.

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