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Author Topic: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?  (Read 1144 times)

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Offline stamina888

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What accounts for the differences in the crispy soft pliable New York style pizza, the sturdier California style pizza and the deep dish Chicago style differences? 

Does it have to do with the water percentage, the method of mixing, the amount of kneading, the method of baking?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2017, 11:40:53 PM »
First let'd define each:
New York type pizza: Moderately thin crust, tough/chewy mastication properties, foldable.
California style: This is a thick crust pizza with a very light, tender eating characteristic and a crispy bottom crust.
Deep-dish Chicago style: Thick crust with a crispy, biscuit like eating characteristic, somewhat dry mouth feel.

What accounts for the differences?
New York style: Made using a very high protein flour, typically baked at higher temperatures, dough absorption about 62%.
California style: Made using a lower protein content bread type flour, dough is well fermented which exhibits a tenderizing effect upon the flour proteins, dough absorption typically around 65% +.
Deep-dish Chicago style: Higher fat content in the dough provides a unique eating characteristic, does not utilize a long fermentation time, dough absorption is typically 57%+.

Mixing time has little to nothing to do with the unique characteristics of each of these pizza types, instead, it is due more so to the flour strength, dough absorption and dough fermentation time and dough formulation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2017, 09:31:20 AM »
What accounts for the differences in the crispy soft pliable New York style pizza, the sturdier California style pizza and the deep dish Chicago style differences? 

Does it have to do with the water percentage, the method of mixing, the amount of kneading, the method of baking?
stamina888,

To add to what Tom has said, you might want to take a look at the following posts that I composed years ago but which strike me as still being relevant today:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2374.msg20742#msg20742 ;

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9008.msg77976#msg77976 ; and

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10701.msg95223#msg95223 .

Peter

Offline Pandastew

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Re: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2017, 01:13:21 PM »
First let'd define each:
New York type pizza: Moderately thin crust, tough/chewy mastication properties, foldable.
California style: This is a thick crust pizza with a very light, tender eating characteristic and a crispy bottom crust.
Deep-dish Chicago style: Thick crust with a crispy, biscuit like eating characteristic, somewhat dry mouth feel.

What accounts for the differences?
New York style: Made using a very high protein flour, typically baked at higher temperatures, dough absorption about 62%.
California style: Made using a lower protein content bread type flour, dough is well fermented which exhibits a tenderizing effect upon the flour proteins, dough absorption typically around 65% +.
Deep-dish Chicago style: Higher fat content in the dough provides a unique eating characteristic, does not utilize a long fermentation time, dough absorption is typically 57%+.

Mixing time has little to nothing to do with the unique characteristics of each of these pizza types, instead, it is due more so to the flour strength, dough absorption and dough fermentation time and dough formulation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I need a bit of clarification on the difference between California style dough vs NY style dough. Can you guide me as to what is California pizza dough recipe? I don't have clear understanding of what "well fermented" entails and when made with lower protein content does that mean AP with 10-12% protein flour range?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2017, 04:38:36 PM »
A well fermented dough would be one that has significant fermentation time, for example, if using CF (cold fermentation), at least 3-days in the fridge would typically qualify as "well fermented". New York style pizzas are made with what is essentially the highest protein flour commercially available which is a minimum of 13.5% protein to as much as 14%+ protein content. Any of the pan style pizzas (California style included) are made using a lower protein content flour which would be considered 10.5 to 11.8% protein content, or something close to that.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline Pandastew

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Re: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2017, 05:23:43 PM »
A well fermented dough would be one that has significant fermentation time, for example, if using CF (cold fermentation), at least 3-days in the fridge would typically qualify as "well fermented". New York style pizzas are made with what is essentially the highest protein flour commercially available which is a minimum of 13.5% protein to as much as 14%+ protein content. Any of the pan style pizzas (California style included) are made using a lower protein content flour which would be considered 10.5 to 11.8% protein content, or something close to that.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

By this definition of Californian style pizza dough, 5% oil and with 3+ days CF it is awfully close to Papa John clone except for the using of lower protein flour. Can Papa John dough be considered Californian style dough?

With the use of 13.5-14%+ protein content flour, NY style street and elite when left to cool down (like it would if it were to be delivered) be tough and "rubbery"/(require some teeth to tear) to some extend?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Differences between New York/Chicago/California style dough?
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2017, 06:56:25 PM »
By this definition of Californian style pizza dough, 5% oil and with 3+ days CF it is awfully close to Papa John clone except for the using of lower protein flour. Can Papa John dough be considered Californian style dough?
Pandastew,

To learn more about the California style of pizza, you might take a look at these posts:

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5487.msg46356#msg46356, and

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22400.msg228027;topicseen#msg228027.

In the last post cited, I discuss the differences between the California Pizza Kitchen type of pizza and different versions of the American style of pizza, which includes Papa John's.

I don't know if California Pizza Kitchen stores still use dough presses, but at the time of the following YouTube video, they did.



Peter

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