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Author Topic: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone  (Read 14859 times)

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Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #40 on: July 25, 2017, 09:42:26 PM »
7/22 dough

Dough Prep
20 hour RT bulk ferment
Skin frozen 55 hours
Defrosted 1 hour

Baked for 9 minutes @ 500 direct on stone.

This pizza was tougher than the last.  Maybe freezing the skins isn't such a good idea after all...  :-\
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 06:29:02 PM by bobgraff »
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2017, 10:01:29 PM »
7/22 Dough

Dough Prep
20 hour RT bulk ferment
Skin frozen 77 hours
Defrosted in fridge for 12 hours
Dough well docked (new)

Stone preheated on bottom rack for 1+ hours @ 530.
Par baked (no sauce) for 3 minutes + topped and finished for another 8 minutes on preheated stone @ 530.  Pizza turned after 5 minutes.

The result was slightly more well done than the previous night's pizza and still on the tough/chewy side.

The first pizza from the 7/22 batch was amazing, even without fridge time.  Ryan's observation about over fermented dough may be my problem here (or maybe it's the effect of freezing).

The next direction for my dough is less fermentation.   Moving the stone lower and baking @ 530 were both positive additions.  I think I got the time and temperature nailed down (for my oven).

P.S.  Those pepperoni are not from Carfagna's.  Don't ask...
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2017, 10:15:24 PM »
I can't believe you were able to do that long of a bulk ferment without seriously overfermenting the dough. But if it worked, awesome.

OK, so maybe I should have said 45-48% hydration instead of 50%. Seems like that's what I was thinking sometime in the past. I suspect I probably erred a little too high because I know how hard it is to roll stiff dough, then especially to roll the same dough after it's been laminated. I also know people don't like rolling stiff dough. So I probably kept it a little too soft to keep from freaking people out the first time they try it. With this style, I think I always figure hydration percentage with the assumption that there will be plenty of flour added while rolling. Which I suspect is probably not done at Tommy's. Probably more of a trick for at home (sans sheeter).

Plus I started suggesting bread flour or high gluten flour instead of AP flour. Which pretty much always makes for a stiffer dough than dough made from all-purpose flour at the same hydration.

What I'm about to say is probably more appropriate in the original thread, but after posting my most recent post there, I began to think it's probably best to do a 12-hour bulk ferment, roll the skin, then refrigerate for 12 to 24 hours before baking. This would work out really good in a commercial setting because you can either make the dough in the morning and let it bulk ferment all day or you can make the dough at night and let it bulk ferment overnight. Plus it seems pretty clear to me that Tommy's refrigerates ALL their skins for at least 12 hours (possibly excluding OSU football game days, at both Lane Avenue locations), considering they always have blisters.

Oh yeah. I also think a 10-15 minute mix time is probably better than the 7-10 minutes I said a couple days ago. I guess I'm just so used to using stiffer dough (which usually needs to mix for a shorter time than softer dough) that I didn't think about that before posting it. Also, if using a j-hook (KitchenAid Artisan), you'll probably want to use the high end of my mix-time estimate.

Note to self...
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline tedcholl

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2017, 04:38:51 PM »
I have had issues with the crust being tougher and more chewy after freezing the rolled out crusts.   Recently I have started to freeze the dough balls after their initial 12-24 bulk ferment and then defrost, and roll out the crusts on the day I plan to make the pizzas and have noticed that the crusts are not as tough and chewy.

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #44 on: July 29, 2017, 03:11:24 PM »
7/22 Dough

Dough Prep
20 hour RT bulk ferment
Skin frozen 149 hours
Defrosted on counter for 90 minutes
Dough not docked

Stone preheated on bottom rack for 30 minutes @ 530.
Par baked with sauce  for 4 minutes + topped and finished for another 7 minutes on stone @ 530.  Pizza turned during 2nd launch.

I stopped at Carfagna's for pepperoni and sausage.  On a slightly icky note, the guy behind the deli counter plunged his hands into the bin of pepperoni to fill my order after packaging up my raw sausage.  There was no glove change.  :o

Anyway - I though this pizza turned out pretty good.   This skin defrosted on the counter much longer than my previous freezer skins and I did not notice any ill effects.  One benefit of the longer defrost is that the dough was warm, so it rolled out a bit thinner, which I think helps mask the dough toughness.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2017, 05:34:13 PM by bobgraff »
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

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Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2017, 08:35:29 PM »
7/22 dough

Last skin from the freezer, prepared using the process noted in my previous post.  Another good pizza.  The crust had a very slight chew to it, but equally crispy.  I'm convinced that it's all about letting the dough approach room temperature (72 degrees, in my case).   I had gotten in the habit of rushing the skins from the fridge to the oven to preserve the laminates, however my last two room-temp skins have maintained their two distinct layers.

One difference with this pizza is that I used Cento crushed tomatoes instead of whole tomatoes that I stain and blend.  The crushed tomatoes are certainly more convenient, however I prefer the whole tomato version.

I also made another batch of dough this afternoon that I divided into thirds after a one hour rise at room temp.  One dough ball went into the freezer, one in the fridge, and the last is still going at room temperature.  I plan the skin the RT ball later tonight and put it in the fridge.  I hope to bake all three later this week and will report back with the results!  You know your obsession has hit the next level when your kids groan when you mention that pizza is for dinner ... again.  :chef:
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 12:36:54 AM by bobgraff »
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2017, 01:35:45 PM »
New toy...

I mainly got this for Chicago deep(er) dish crusts, but I plan on using it to revisit my skin making process in general.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000CFTQT/?tag=pmak-20

Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2017, 09:14:37 PM »
7/30 Dough

821 g Flour (90% bread flour + 10% Semolina)
377 g Water (46%)
12 g IDY
12 g Salt
41 g Olive Oil (5%)
16 g Low diastatic malt powder
8g Dry milk powder

Dough Prep
8 hour RT bulk ferment (new)
Skin refrigerated 20 hours
Not docked
Less than 3 minutes from fridge to par bake.

Par baked for 4ish minutes @ 530, inverted skin on cooling rack for 5 minutes (new), dressed pizza back in the oven for another 6 minutes @ 530.

The skin seemed to bubble much more than usual during the par bake, even with some aggressive bubble popping on my part.  I chose not to sauce the skin during the par bake because I wanted to try inverting it during the cooling phase, as suggested by one of the dough experts here on another thread.

This pizza by far was my crispiest and crunchiest to date.  No chew whatsoever!  The crust still tasted decent, though I missed the uber fermented flavor of the ones treated with a 20+ hour RT ferment.  I think the sweet spot for balanced flavor and crunch is somewhere in the 12-16 hour range. Stay tuned....
« Last Edit: July 31, 2017, 09:19:23 PM by bobgraff »
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2017, 11:09:29 PM »
Tried out the pie crust bag tonight.  Still getting the hang of it, but seems like it was worth the $7 investment if solely for the slight reduction in counter mess.
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #49 on: August 02, 2017, 11:56:15 PM »
7/30 dough

These pizzas are all from the same dough batch, divided into 3 dough balls after a one hour rise at RT.

Dough Ball 1: 8 hour RT ferment, then rolled into skins that went into the fridge.
Dough Ball 2: Stored in the fridge.
Dough Ball 3: Stored in the freezer.

And the results...

Pizza 1 (from 7/31):  From dough ball 1, skin stored in fridge for 20 hours.  4 minutes par bake + 6 minutes dressed @ 530.   Crust was crisp and crunchy, but lacked some of the fermented flavor from previous pies.

Pizza 2: From dough ball 1, skin stored in fridge for 44 hours.  4 minutes par bake + 6 minutes dressed @ 530.  Chewy.

Pizza 3: From dough ball 2, dough ball stored in fridge for 52 hours.  Skin rolled in pie bag after 1 hour RT.  4 minutes par bake + 6 minutes dressed @ 530.  Soft with light crisp!!    8)

Pizza 4: Scraps from Pizza 3, rolled extra thin.  6 minutes dressed @ 530.  Similar to pizza #3, but thinner.

Pizza 5: From dough ball 3, dough ball stored in freezer for 40 hours, defrosted in fridge for 12 hours  Skin rolled in pie bag after 1.5 hours RT.  4 minutes par bake + 5.5 minutes dressed @ 530. Some softness plus the underside had some crunch to it.

Pizza 6:  Scraps from pizza 5. 6.5 minutes dressed @ 530. Similar to 5, but with less crunch.


Lots of lessons learned tonight.  The softness of pizza #3 was a revelation.  Pizzas 1, 2, and 3 were so different than one another.  Rise time and rise temperature make a huge difference in the results.  Rolling the skins prior to cold storage vs immediately before baking may be important too.  Good stuff!

« Last Edit: August 03, 2017, 12:11:20 AM by bobgraff »
Bob

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Offline 333meg

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2017, 05:54:45 PM »
I hope someone doesn't get sick from Carfagna's cross contaminating fresh sausage into the pepperoni. I always eat some pepperoni as I prep the pies. Also, in your post about the pep not being from Carfagna's...very strangely the last time I got some pep from Carfagna's, it looked like that picture of your's. Carfagna's had thrown 2 types of pep together and I didn't know until baking, some were large and cooked up flat and limp, the 2nd type were smaller and the ones I'm used to that bake up crispy.

I know exactly about hearing the groan when it's pizza again for dinner...to which I answer, "you don't have to eat any", that has worked. Not once has the pizza been passed up on either.
Pursuing pizza has put me into an airplane, in a car and on road trips of hundreds of miles...

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2017, 10:28:41 PM »
8/4 dough

821 g Flour (90% bread flour + 10% Semolina)
377 g Water (46%)
12 g IDY
12 g Salt
41 g Olive Oil (5%)
16 g Low diastatic malt powder
8g Dry milk powder


Pizza 1:  20 Hour RT bulk ferment +  8 hours in fridge (balled) + 2 hours back at RT (balled).  Rolled out with rolling pin just prior to bake.  4 min par bake with sauce + 7 minute bake dressed @ 530.  Result:  Soft crust, no blisters.  Good flavor.

Pizza 2:  20 Hour RT bulk ferment, rolled out with pasta maker (2 layers), 8 hours in fridge (skinned).   4 min par bake with sauce + 7 minute bake dressed @ 530.  Result:  Thin, tough crust, with blisters.  Good flavor.

Pizza 3: 8 Hour RT bulk ferment +  20 hours in fridge (balled) + 3 hours back at RT (balled).    4 min par bake with sauce + 7 minute bake dressed @ 530*.  I botched the launch and spent a minute with the oven door open getting the skin re-positioned.  Clearly this pizza was cooked at a lower temperature than planned, based on the underskirt.  Not good.  :-\

I have one small skin left from the scraps of pizza #2 that I plan to use to confirm a theory of mine.  I've noticed a trend that my thin pasta maker doughs have a tendency to be tough.  It could be that my rolling process is doing that, though suspect rushing the skin from fridge to oven may be causing the toughness.
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2017, 10:31:39 PM »
and... pizza #4.   A funny experiment that turned out to be the hit of the night.  48% hydration, 8% butter/oil.
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #53 on: August 10, 2017, 09:46:57 PM »
8/4 dough

Scrap dough from 8/6 Pizza #2.  Skin in fridge for 56 hours, then left on counter pre-bake for 90 minutes.   4 min par bake with sauce + 6 minute bake dressed @ 530.

Testing my theory that tough crust is a result of cold skins going directly into the oven.

Expected result:  Less toughness than 8/6 pizza #2.
Actual result:  Tough crust, similar to pizza #2.  :-\
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #54 on: August 10, 2017, 09:51:25 PM »
The real deal:  161 Tommy's:

So. Good.  Makes me realize how far off my efforts are!

Some observations:

  • I can taste the malt in the crispy part of the crust
  • I'd swear their dough has a modest amount of garlic powder in it.
  • The sauce has a bitter taste to it.  Extra salt?  Beer?  Possibly some garlic powder here too.
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

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Offline Floridian

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #55 on: August 12, 2017, 01:02:45 PM »
Tommy's sprinkles garlic powder on their pies after cooking. I saw them sprinkle something the last time I was there. I asked the waitress and she told us it was garlic powder. It is a very subtle flavor; they don't use much
Tommy's pizza fan. Trying to emulate Tommy's using Aimless Ryan's recipe

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2017, 08:08:32 AM »
Tommy's sprinkles garlic powder on their pies after cooking. I saw them sprinkle something the last time I was there. I asked the waitress and she told us it was garlic powder. It is a very subtle flavor; they don't use much

That might be where I'm tasting it from, but it seemed to me that the flavor is coming from the crust itself.  I ate several deconstructed pieces (no cheese, scraped the sauce off, etc.) and thought that the crust seems to have a flavor all it's own (garlic powder?  garlic salt?  onion powder?).  It's subtle for sure, but enough so that I enjoyed eating the crust plain. 

That said, I don't doubt you and do add garlic powder to my own pies solely based on the observations you noted in your thread.
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2017, 09:28:40 PM »
I'm more convinced that Tommy's puts beer in their sauce.  Try this:  simmer half a cup of generic pilsner (Labatt's Blue in my case) and 1 tablespoon of bacon grease for 5 minutes, then take a whiff. 

Smells a whole heck of a lot like Tommy's pizza to me!
Bob

"I learn each day what I need to know to do tomorrow’s work." - Arnold Toynbee

Offline chrisgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2017, 11:27:55 AM »
I'm more convinced that Tommy's puts beer in their sauce.  Try this:  simmer half a cup of generic pilsner (Labatt's Blue in my case) and 1 tablespoon of bacon grease for 5 minutes, then take a whiff. 

Smells a whole heck of a lot like Tommy's pizza to me!

You may have just cornered the potpourri market in Columbus, Ohio!  ;D

Offline bobgraff

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Re: BobGraff's Attempt at Aimless Ryan's Tommy's Pizza Clone
« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2017, 10:57:24 AM »
8/20 Dough

821 g Flour (75% bread flour + 20% 00 Tippo + 5% Semolina)
377 g Water (46%)
12 g IDY
12 g Salt
41 g Olive Oil (5%)
16 g Low diastatic malt powder
8g Dry milk powder
1/8 teaspoon onion powder (new)

Dough Prep
10 Hour RT Ferment, then divided into dough balls and into the freezer.

Sauce (new)
I combined a 1/2 cup of beer with 1 TSP bacon grease, then gently boiled to reduce down to 5 TSP.  Added 2 cups of pureed italian tomatoes, oregano, salt, and sugar. 

Pizzas rolled out with rolling pin just prior to bake.  3-4 min par bake with sauce + 6-7 minute bake dressed @ 530.

Results:
The crust had a gritty quality to it that I did not care for at all.  I assume this was a result from using 00 flour. 

The new sauce has promise, though the malty flavor from the beer was barely noticeable.  Will add/reduce more beer next time.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2017, 11:36:34 AM by bobgraff »
Bob

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