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Author Topic: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?  (Read 8682 times)

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Offline iamrook85

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Hey Tom (and everyone else!),
I have been following the Tartine method of dough making and two batches ago my dough came out more perfect than it ever has.  It was exactly what I wanted.  Wonderful stretch, great oven spring, i was able to get leopard burns on the edges and the bottom of the pies (see attached).  So I did the same recipe and thought I followed everything the same, but this time my dough was  very unmanageable.  As I went to stretch it, gravity really took handle on the dough, it fell apart, giant holes opened up in the middle, the gluten was not present as it should have been.  The photos attached are from the batch that went really well.

I am making another batch this morning (Wednesday) and I don't want to end up with un-stretchable dough again, so any advice would be most appreciated!

If you are familiar with the Tartine method you know that it is is a very specific step by step, and it does not include kneading on a work surface, but rather by using a series of turns on a set schedule. Both times I used a 65% hydration, and flour breakdown was 70% 00, 20% Bread Flour, and 10% Wheat.  I cook my pizzas around 700 stone temp using a Little Black Egg.

I'm not sure what made such a drastic difference between the two times.  I even used a temperature regulated proofing box to make sure the temperature is always the same during bulk fermentation.  What do you think are some things that could have effected the under development of gluten, being that I used the same method/steps, same flour, roughly same temperatures?

Thank you!!

-Mike



« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 04:03:12 AM by iamrook85 »

Offline Mikemac725

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2017, 08:03:48 AM »
I was having the same issues with my NY dough following the pizza bible recipe. I attributed it to over hydration even though I measured all of my ingredients exact. Once I started using a double hydration method and went slower with the addition of my water, I found I got a much stronger dough that was easily stretched and not vulnerable to tear. I would say on average I had to reduce my water addition to almost 1/3 less than what was in the recipe. Granite I was not using All Trumps Flour like the recipe called for. It kind of became apparent to me that the look and the feel of the dough were just as important as weighing the ingredients. Hope this helps.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2017, 11:01:45 AM »
Generally, when the dough becomes extremely extensible and tears easily it is an indication of excessive fermentation. What was the finished dough temperature at the time it went into the bulk fermentation phase? Even a difference of a couple degrees will have a dramatic impact upon the amount of fermentation the dough receives when bulk fermenting over a lengthy time. This may seem hard to believe, but the temperature of the environment can change several degrees F. without significantly impacting the rate that the dough will ferment at (bulk fermentation only). Assuming you are weighing all of the ingredients too, if not all cards are off of the table.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2017, 04:52:05 PM »
Amazing guys thank you for the tips!  I will ensure not to ferment too long.  I am fermenting in a controlled environment at 80 degrees, and have "turned" it twice already, coming up on a third. 

1.
a. Have you put the dough in the refrigerator after final shape to slow the rise for cooking a day later? 
b. If so, do you worry about what temp the fridge is set at? 
c. When you decide it is time to cook the dough a day or two later, what is your process for taking it out of the fridge prepping it for the oven?  (I am using a LBE that I made).  Should I pull it out an let it proof at a certain temp?  I have one of those bread proofers with temp control so I can let it have it's final rise at whatever temp is best for it.

2.
In the book Tartine, he seems to skip the final rise step (if not retarding in the fridge) and goes straight to cooking after the bench rest following bulk fermentation.  Have you tried it with or without a final rise?

Hope these questions make sense.

Thanks!

-Mike

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2017, 06:01:23 PM »
If you're going to put the dough ball in the fridge after bulk fermenting be sure to flatten it out like a hockey puck, if you don't there will be little impact of putting the dough in the fridge for the first 8 to 10-hours (dough, especially fermented dough is an EXCELLENT insulator).
Fridge set temperature: The fridge should be operating at between 36 and 40F.
When removing dough from fridge in preparation for use, just set it out at room temperature (covered to prevent drying) and allow it to come to between 50 and 60F (internal dough ball temperature). You will want to experiment to see which internal temperature works best for your specific conditions.
Once the dough ball reaches the desired internal temperature proceed with opening it into a skin for immediate dressing and baking.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2017, 06:40:53 PM »
When you say flatten like a hockey puck, are you referring to if I were to put the whole batch in the fridge?

I think I would separate into 300g balls and then put them into the fridge, would I still need to flatten per your recommendation?

Thank you for all of your help this is great!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2017, 12:55:14 AM »
If you bulk ferment prior to scaling and balling the flattening procedure goes a long ways in helping to cool the dough down more efficiently. As you know, a round ball is a shape good for only one thing, rolling. It seems to fail at just about everything else including freezing or cooling. The smaller the cross section the more efficiently the dough will cool (core temperature is the name of the game here), until the core is cooled you don't have a cooled dough ball or dough mass.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 12:06:00 AM »
I tried all of the advice that you gave, just pulled my dough from the fridge, let it rise for about 90 minutes, and it just completely fell apart while stretching.  I am cursed with poor gluten development.

Offline the1mu

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 12:11:07 AM »
I tried all of the advice that you gave, just pulled my dough from the fridge, let it rise for about 90 minutes, and it just completely fell apart while stretching.  I am cursed with poor gluten development.

Maybe I'm way off, but that almost more sounds like extreme over fermentation that poor gluten development. Like it literally fell apart because it couldn't hold it self together? Or were there just a few weak spots where holes slowly developed and once developed got big real fast?

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 12:17:42 AM »
I tried all of the advice that you gave, just pulled my dough from the fridge, let it rise for about 90 minutes, and it just completely fell apart while stretching.  I am cursed with poor gluten development.

When I went to stretch it, it felt like it had no elasticity.  Gravity had a great pull on it and it felt droopy.  When stretching the center several holes quickly opened up..

I fermented for 3 hours at 80 degrees. 30 min bench rest, then shaped and put it in the fridge  :-\

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Offline the1mu

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 12:19:47 AM »
When I went to stretch it, it felt like it had no elasticity.  Gravity had a great pull on it and it felt droopy.  When stretching the center several holes quickly opened up..

I fermented for 3 hours at 80 degrees. 30 min bench rest, then shaped and put it in the fridge  :-\

Have you mentioned what kind of flour you are using?

As Tom previously asked, having you checked your final dough temp (FDT)?

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 12:27:20 AM »
Have you mentioned what kind of flour you are using?

As Tom previously asked, having you checked your final dough temp (FDT)?

I guess I didn't measure the temp of the actual dough when putting it into bulk fermentation but the room temp was 78.  And then I kept it in a temperature controlled proofing box set for 80 degrees, and gave it a "turn" every 30 min for the first two hours, and then let it be for the 3rd hour.  Took it out, cut it up into 6x 300g balls, gave it a tartine fold over, flattened it a bit like a hockey puck (per Tom) and put it in a fridge set for 40 degrees.

Yeah I was using 80% 00, 10% bread flour, and 10% wheat.  70% hydration.

Offline the1mu

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2017, 12:30:14 AM »
I'm thinking over fermented for sure.

As Tom already stated FDT and ambient temp (80į in a controlled environment in your case) doesn't say much about how the dough is developing. The internal temp will.

The tartine fold over also may not be sufficient for creating a pizza ball that is going into the fridge.

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2017, 12:37:11 AM »
I took a video of how it falls apart if you have a place I can hightail or email to?

Offline Satyen

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2017, 06:54:11 AM »
I had this issue with my ny dough. It turned out that the culprit was the particular brand of flour. My usual 'go to' doves farm strong bread flour was out of stock at the local supermarket so i was using tesco's strong bread flour. And it turned out that the absorption rate of tesco's was so poor that the dough would be over fermented, over extensible and nearly collapsed. After switching back to doves farm, the same exact recipe and workflow worked like a charm.

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Offline werty20

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2017, 08:07:44 AM »
I took a video of how it falls apart if you have a place I can hightail or email to?
youtube

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2017, 02:31:43 PM »
Here you go!




Offline Essen1

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2017, 02:55:06 PM »

Yeah I was using 80% 00, 10% bread flour, and 10% wheat.  70% hydration.

First off, the pizza recipe in the Tartine book is not a very good one, imo.

Furthermore, 00 flour is not designed for high-hydration doughs. Caputo's Pizzeria flour, for example, has a suggested absorption rate of 55-57% as you can see here.

http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/00-Pizzeria-SPECS.pdf

I would go the other route, perhaps 65% bread flour, 25% 00 to soften it out and 10% whole wheat, then start experimenting with different hydrations until you find the dough you like. Whole wheat flour goes a long way when mixed with other flours.

I am sure Tom can elaborate on this a bit more.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2017, 03:23:43 PM »
I agree that a greater percentage of bread flour would be beneficial. The weakness of the dough as is clearly visible can be due to either of two factors, an extremely weak flour (increased percentage of bread flour would help) as well as an over fermented dough for the flour being used. From the looks of the dough I'm guessing that excessively high dough temperature might by playing a significant role in this.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline iamrook85

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Re: Problems with holes while stretching dough, gluten underdeveloped?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2017, 10:03:31 PM »
All noted thank you guys.  The flour I was using was Central Milling Organic 00 (https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-00-normal/)

S what's the best way to know how long to bulk ferment for, let's say at 75 degrees?  Or how do I know how long for any temp for that matter to avoid over fermenting?  Thank you!

-Mike
« Last Edit: July 21, 2017, 10:07:59 PM by iamrook85 »

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