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Offline hotsawce

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Poolish and Leavening Power
« on: September 21, 2017, 06:57:44 PM »
I am reading through Tartine no.3 and found the section about two different types of poolish (same day for leavening, and overnight for flavor) pretty interesting.

I am not looking to use two poolishes on pizza dough, but would be interested in trying a very low yeast, overnight poolish to develop flavor.

I know some people will add yeast at the final mix to get more leavening power, but does anyone here think that is necessary? I would like to develop flavor with the long preferment, but not use additional yeast. Would an overnight preferment have the leavening power neccessary, given some time, to appropriately leaven the dough alone?

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Poolish and Leavening Power
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2017, 11:54:39 PM »


I know some people will add yeast at the final mix to get more leavening power, but does anyone here think that is necessary? I would like to develop flavor with the long preferment, but not use additional yeast. Would an overnight preferment have the leavening power neccessary, given some time, to appropriately leaven the dough alone?

It's always worked fine for me. The only time I add extra yeast after a preferment is my sandwich roll formula, and that's just so I don't have an enriched dough sitting out for 18+ hours at room temp.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Poolish and Leavening Power
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 01:15:46 AM »
I'm understanding the sourdough and bakers yeast fermentation charts, but throw a preferment into the mix and I have no idea what the fermentation time on a dough is going to be. Does anyone have an idea on how to calculate that? Would it be similar to the amount of starter chart? Just replace with active preferment?

I'm getting into very long fermentation times - trying to do most of it at room temp. Ideally, a very long room temp bulk then into balls and into a cooler for the remaining fermentation, which should hold for a couple days if most of the fermentation is done in the first stage (with minimal gluten degradation, hopefully, as the dough will not be at temperatures that encourage it at a quicker pace...)

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Poolish and Leavening Power
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2017, 02:20:55 PM »
Lou,

I have a suspicion that you may not be able to get away with using a long room temperature fermentation of a poolish preferment using the proper amount of yeast for the poolish and have that amount of yeast support a rather long additional period of cold fermentation. My concern would be that the yeast would run out of food and that there would be insufficient residual sugars to contribute to crust coloration. That might mean having to add sugar or other sweetener to the final mix. And the only way to know if that will work, given the small amount of yeast in the poolish, is to try it. That is because large amounts of sugar in relation to the small amount of yeast (the amount needed to achieve a proper poolish performance) can result in suppressing fermentation, much like high salt levels can suppress the action and performance of yeast.

Since I am not an expert on the science and biochemistry of commercially leavened preferments like poolish, I usually turn to the two Didier Rosada articles on the subject at https://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm and at https://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm. Unfortunately, the photos do not appear in the articles. That is because the articles are no longer active. I found them in the archives of the Wayback Machine but they lack photos. In your case, for the poolish, you will want to take note of Chart A in the first Rosada article cited since that chart dictates how to make a proper poolish. Note also the temperatures of the water used, the room temperature, and the intended duration of the prefermentation of the poolish. These factors govern what you will ideally get with your poolish. You can alter the parameters of the poolish and, in that regard, I think you can safely use Craig's baker's yeast chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349. Note that the Rosada article calls for using cake yeast in Chart A. Of course, you can use IDY or ADY in the proper amount, and that is an option in Craig's chart.

Quite commonly on the forum, the members often use all of the yeast in a given formulation in the poolish. You can see an example of this where I adapted a formulation of another member (JerryMac) in the opening post at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855. However, it is possible to split the amount of yeast in the dough formulation between the poolish and the final mix. You can see an example where I did this with the JerryMac formulation. That version is set forth at Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131. You will note that in that experiment I used 80% of the formula water (a typical upper limit for a classical poolish) rather than all of the formula water, and only 1/32 t. of IDY.

I do not recall ever doing something along the lines you mentioned where the only yeast used for the entire formulation is that which is used in the poolish. As noted above, I would be concerned that there would not be enough yeast to survive the entire dough fermentation over a period of several days without taking measures to insure that there are sufficient residual sugars at the time of the bake to contribute to crust coloration. Whether adding sugar or other sweetener to the final mix will solve the problem is not clear. Forcing a lot of sugar on a small amount of yeast may not turn out well. Small amounts of yeast by itself can post problems, as I tried to describe in Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39675.msg396291;topicseen#msg396291. So, you may want to run some tests to learn how a poolish will behave in the scenario you have posed.

Good luck, and please let us know what you learn.

Peter

Offline CaptBob

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Re: Poolish and Leavening Power
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2017, 10:22:13 PM »
This is a very interesting discussion. I use a pretty low percentage of IDY in my dough. Typically .05%. For the very reasons that Lou was thinking and what Peter stated, I use half of the total IDY in the poolish and the other half for the final dough mix. My thinking is that, because I like a long CF (3 to 5 days), the first half for the poolish (overnight, 14 hours) helps with flavor while the second half lasts for the remainder of the CF. Maybe not overly scientific but it seems to work for me.......but maybe I don't know what I don't know........
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 10:26:55 PM by CaptBob »
Bob

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Poolish and Leavening Power
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2017, 11:33:57 AM »
CaptBob,

I recall that you did a lot of work on your versions of the Brian Spangler dough formulation that used a poolish and where he split the amount of the total formula IDY between the poolish and the final mix. He used the final dough at room temperature whereas you often used a bulk final dough that was subjected to several stretch and folds before balling and cold fermenting. Of course, you also often used beer for the poolish. I believe that you posted your results mainly in the thread you started at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34858.msg346777#msg346777.

I think it perhaps all comes down to achieving the right balance between the amount of poolish (as a percent of the total formula water or flour), the duration of prefermentation of the poolish, the right amount of yeast (whether used only in the poolish or split between the poolish and the final dough), and the duration of the cold fermentation of the final dough balls.

Peter

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Poolish and Leavening Power
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 09:00:56 PM »
I'm finding I need far less yeast in general, for poolish or straight dough.

I did a 12 hour poolish last night into today - I used 0.02% ADY as a percentage of the poolish flour. In my case, this was 0.9 grams for 160 ounces of flour. When I came back 12 hours later, the poolish had doubled and was pushing up against the top of the container.

Though it didn't collapse, I think it was at the end of its life.

I'm finding, very frequently, with my poolish, my final dough balls are very loose feeling and tend to pancake out in the dough trays! I'm also finding, though the poolish is very active, it's not leavening my dough balls very much. I think I may need to use it sooner, or go for 6 to 8 hours on the poolish (but potentially sacrificing flavor as a result...)

Any input, as always, is greatly appreciated. It has been a different beast adapting a lot of these methods to larger batches of dough.


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