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Author Topic: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results  (Read 3925 times)

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Offline Yael

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Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« on: December 08, 2017, 09:40:51 AM »
Hi everybody,

Russian flour (protein 12%) 100%
HR 85%
salt 2%
EVOO 2%
IDY 0.8%

Mixer : kitchenaid style
Autolyse about 1 - 1.5 hours (F 100% + HR 55%)
(-> too dry, I was hard to get it back to higher hydration, next time add 59% HR)
adding the last 30% little by little at higher speed.

Around 20 hours CF (let's say one night)

Cutting into balls, one ball for teglia 1050g, one ball for pala 840g

After 30 min, put on the oiled baking pan.
Around 5H at RT then baking.

Result in pictures below...

The pala lacked baking time as the stone wasn't hot enough (I bake the teglia first and I added the stone after baking the teglia). I'm still a beginner, you can see the comb in the crust isn't steady.
The teglia is more flat...

But I didn't resolve my problem with the spiral mixer (post here), if anyone can have a look...

Cheers
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline pete zappie

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 10:28:30 AM »
thank you for your work on this style
still can’t get the super light crunch yet
it’s technique and mine needs more attention

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2017, 11:45:20 PM »
Hi Pete,

Thank you for your comment. I need to improve a lot too...
About yours, the crust seems to be quite good, but it seems like you didn't par-bake, it seems that you put all the topping at once, the result is that all those ingredients are heavy and will press the dough. If so, you can try par-bake next time, just the dough of you can add the sauce. Bake 6 to 9 minutes, depending on your oven, then the second baking 5 min should be ok.
Keep posting pics !
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline surgtech2006

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 08:33:41 AM »
Hi everybody,

Russian flour (protein 12%) 100%
HR 85%
salt 2%
EVOO 2%
IDY 0.8%

Mixer : kitchenaid style
Autolyse about 1 - 1.5 hours (F 100% + HR 55%)
(-> too dry, I was hard to get it back to higher hydration, next time add 59% HR)
adding the last 30% little by little at higher speed.

Around 20 hours CF (let's say one night)

Cutting into balls, one ball for teglia 1050g, one ball for pala 840g

After 30 min, put on the oiled baking pan.
Around 5H at RT then baking.

Result in pictures below...

The pala lacked baking time as the stone wasn't hot enough (I bake the teglia first and I added the stone after baking the teglia). I'm still a beginner, you can see the comb in the crust isn't steady.
The teglia is more flat...

But I didn't resolve my problem with the spiral mixer (post here), if anyone can have a look...

Cheers
Yael

At what temp is your CF? Also, how long is your dough in the mixer?

Jerry

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2017, 12:51:18 AM »
Yael

At what temp is your CF? Also, how long is your dough in the mixer?

Jerry

Jerry,

The fridge should be between 2 and 6... It's a fridge we use specially for the dough, but the temperatures aren't steady.
I mixed during 20 minutes. You can start the 2nd hydration ("bassinage") on 2nd speed after 10 min.

BTW, I have some news on the other thread, you can go have a look ! (link)
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2017, 09:21:58 AM »
I'll take a square of each, please.
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2018, 10:28:20 AM »
I'll take a square of each, please.

 ;D

I did more tests recently. Pretty much the same overall process.
Still need to improve handling technique with such high HR
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2018, 11:56:20 AM »
Hi everybody,

Russian flour (protein 12%) 100%
HR 85%
salt 2%
EVOO 2%
IDY 0.8%

Mixer : kitchenaid style
Autolyse about 1 - 1.5 hours (F 100% + HR 55%)
(-> too dry, I was hard to get it back to higher hydration, next time add 59% HR)
adding the last 30% little by little at higher speed.

Around 20 hours CF (let's say one night)

Cutting into balls, one ball for teglia 1050g, one ball for pala 840g

After 30 min, put on the oiled baking pan.
Around 5H at RT then baking.

Result in pictures below...

The pala lacked baking time as the stone wasn't hot enough (I bake the teglia first and I added the stone after baking the teglia). I'm still a beginner, you can see the comb in the crust isn't steady.
The teglia is more flat...

But I didn't resolve my problem with the spiral mixer (post here), if anyone can have a look...

Cheers

Superb! Great results!

Offline surgtech2006

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2018, 12:21:37 PM »
;D

I did more tests recently. Pretty much the same overall process.
Still need to improve handling technique with such high HR
This is looking really good Yael! I havent had much time to experiment, hopefully next week I will be able to try out a few recipes.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2018, 10:49:08 AM »
Superb! Great results!

This is looking really good Yael! I havent had much time to experiment, hopefully next week I will be able to try out a few recipes.

Thank you guys !

I made other tests recently, but it wasn't successful. Maybe because of when I enter the pizza (/dough) in my small oven, I think I screwed up things. I'm still working on it !
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2018, 12:51:49 PM »
Hi everybody,

Russian flour (protein 12%) 100%
HR 85%
salt 2%
EVOO 2%
IDY 0.8%

Mixer : kitchenaid style
Autolyse about 1 - 1.5 hours (F 100% + HR 55%)
(-> too dry, I was hard to get it back to higher hydration, next time add 59% HR)
adding the last 30% little by little at higher speed.

Around 20 hours CF (let's say one night)

Cutting into balls, one ball for teglia 1050g, one ball for pala 840g

After 30 min, put on the oiled baking pan.
Around 5H at RT then baking.


Cheers

Yael, Tomorrow I'm gonna give your method a try, found some Australian baker's flour with 12.5% protein.
However I'll stay a bit under with 70%-75% HR. Do you think I should change the proportions for the IDY, EVOO, Salt? Or keep the same % as your 85HR dough?

Also I'll be trying it with pizzas mostly not teglia or pala. So can I CF for 2 days or 3?

Lastly, just to make sure I got the mixing right, I put 100% flour/ 59%water, autolyse for 1.5hrs. Then 1st mix for 10 mins, then 2nd mix (bassinage) for 10mins adding the rest of water at higher speed. All good?  :P


Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2018, 08:19:11 PM »
Yael, Tomorrow I'm gonna give your method a try, found some Australian baker's flour with 12.5% protein.
However I'll stay a bit under with 70%-75% HR. Do you think I should change the proportions for the IDY, EVOO, Salt? Or keep the same % as your 85HR dough?

Also I'll be trying it with pizzas mostly not teglia or pala. So can I CF for 2 days or 3?

Lastly, just to make sure I got the mixing right, I put 100% flour/ 59%water, autolyse for 1.5hrs. Then 1st mix for 10 mins, then 2nd mix (bassinage) for 10mins adding the rest of water at higher speed. All good?  :P

Look, I wanted to add, the last time I tried autolyse, the dough was too soft, too extensible, not elasticity at all. This was a problem for taaking the dough from the table to the peel, it was 'dropping' (not sure of this word, but you may understand) thus giving me a larger and thinner pizza than I wanted, thus resulting in irregular baking (center was burnt). I suggest you try both with and without autolyse.

12.5% protein you should be ok with 75%.
You keep the same proportions, maybe less IDY if longer CF.

But once again, if you just want to make classic pizza, this is not the best kind of dough... (and don't forget to pre-bake).
And post some pictures !
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2018, 08:23:38 PM »
I read on your other post (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53436.msg537045#msg537045) that you want to make Neapolitan style... The baking is very fast, with that amount of water your pizza will not be enough digestible I'm afraid  :(
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2018, 10:45:22 PM »
I read on your other post (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53436.msg537045#msg537045) that you want to make Neapolitan style... The baking is very fast, with that amount of water your pizza will not be enough digestible I'm afraid  :(


But before I've seen photos of italian pizza chef who made neapolitan pizza with 75% hydration, and it looked good. But now i'm starting to realise that it's because they got a powerful oven? So my 250gr ball will have to spend more time in the oven is that correct?  :-X

Regarding the elasticity, Tom suggested here as well (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53436.msg537045#msg537045) that i need to use some manitoba flour. To have a nice and strong elastic dough. But don't have that right now, so maybe I can develop the gluten of my flour in the Kitchnaid somehow?

Offline Frenchy2000

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #14 on: July 25, 2018, 02:53:13 AM »
Look, I wanted to add, the last time I tried autolyse, the dough was too soft, too extensible, not elasticity at all. This was a problem for taaking the dough from the table to the peel, it was 'dropping' (not sure of this word, but you may understand) thus giving me a larger and thinner pizza than I wanted, thus resulting in irregular baking (center was burnt). I suggest you try both with and without autolyse.

12.5% protein you should be ok with 75%.
You keep the same proportions, maybe less IDY if longer CF.

But once again, if you just want to make classic pizza, this is not the best kind of dough... (and don't forget to pre-bake).
And post some pictures !

Hey Yael,

I think the 75%HR was too much for my flour haha

I didn't do an autolyse, instead I mixed my dough as I normally would, and folded it every 45 mins. It was 'solid' but after 2 days CF, when i went to open the dough, it was wayyy too stretchy...No elasticity at all...I opened the dough in literally 5secs.

I'll try again with 65% tomorrow, and I'll also make a poolish today.

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Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2019, 09:12:28 PM »
Hello everyone,

It's been some time - and many tests since then, I master better the kneading and the handling of high hydation now. There are still some (if not many) progresses to be made of course, but with this flour and this equipment I 'start' to be satisfied.

The workflow is +/- the same :
Russian flour 100%, usually 500g for my "murenking" mixer (Chinese brand)
Hydra 80% (sometimes I stop at 78%)
IDY 0.5%
Salt 2.5%

I make a 30 min autolyse (60% flour 60% water) to cool it down and reduce the mixing time.
Then low speed, add the flour+yeast+half of remaining water; then after a minute or 2 double hydration at high speed (beaten-egg speed). I add the salt towards the end, or before high speed, it depends.
Total kneading around 10 min, dough @24-25°C. At this speed, it heats very quick.
Then 2 or 3 series of folding at 20-30 min space, then cold (fridge) overnight (6-7°C).
The second day I take it out and let it a RT for 4-5H (RT 21°C).

Then baking (300°C for pala, 250 top and 300 bottom for teglia).

PS: the first pic was taken at a more recent test.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline john_k

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #16 on: May 31, 2019, 11:31:56 AM »
Yael:

Thanks for this breakdown. I am trying to make sense of the various recipes and procedures out there for romana-style dough. Having tried a few, I have settled on a variation of the recipe and process in the Pizzarium book, modified slightly to increase the hydration and decrease the yeast.

So far I have used a no-knead approach (combine ingredients, with or without a preliminary autolyse, then fold 3 or four times, and perhaps again in 24 hours, with stretching and baking after 48 hrs CF). Do you have a sense of the difference between that approach and yours, which adds a long mixing step and perhaps one or two fewer folds?

I will try your approach to see the differences for myself, but I am interested in your views and experience.

Also, is there a reason you do not autolyse all of the flour at once?

Also, with the heat from mixing, do you see or not see an advantage to using very cold water in the mix?





Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2019, 08:21:30 PM »
Hi John,

I tried no-knead method for bread and also pizza pala : https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54292.new#new

I was quite pleased by the result.
I found a slight difference with the kneading though: the crumb was softer, not as chewy as the no-knead method. I would need to make both tests together to confirm, as they were made at different times. Maybe the no-knead batch would need an extra 24H CF for a total of 48H, 72H might even be better.

About the autolyse, I read/learned/was taught that it should be 100% hydration, so I choose an amount of flour according to the water I want in the autolyse. Here I chose 60% water (from the total flour, not from the four used in the autolyse) because when I add the rest of the flour in the mixer I first get a 60% HR dough (+/- standard), and then I can proceed with the double hydration. So 60% water => 60% flour.

You definitely need cold water; in my mixer at high speed, I didn't measure it but it must heat around 2°C every minute!! Autolyse also allows to make a cooler dough as you keep it in the fridge. My RT is between 21 and 24°C.
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Offline john_k

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #18 on: June 01, 2019, 11:17:22 PM »
I baked it tonight and it was very good, despite a few screw ups and alterations.

I substituted 10% medium rye flour in (don't think there was a problem with that, but maybe...). I did not do the double hydration (i.e. I added the remaining water all at once with the autolyse and the remaining flour). That was an oversight, not a deliberate move.

I did not refrigerate the autolyse; my final temp was about 6 or 8 degrees too high. I also did not mix it at high enough speed until a few minutes into the high-speed step. But then I turned the dial to 11 and immediately got the slap-slap sound and the bowl totally cleared.

The gluten never developed as shown in your photo. I could barely stretch a US nickel-sized piece of dough. I mixed it an extra 3 or 4 minutes trying to get more gluten developed, without much luck. I folded it 4 times at 2O minute intervals after the mixing, put it in the fridge and hoped for the best.

After about 26 hour CF it sat on the counter for maybe 4 hours. Stretching was fine. I drizzled some oil, parbaked for 6 minutes, topped it, and baked another 7 minutes or so. More parbaking would have been better I think. I baked at 500 C on quarry tiles. It did seem chewier (in a good way) than my usual no-knead romana pizzas, so maybe the fuss of the mixer really is worth it.

next time I will refrigerate the autolyze, do the double hydration, go to level '11' speed on the mixer, and parbake 8 minutes before topping.

Thanks a lot!

EDIT - baked in a regular steel teglia pan for the parbake, let it cool on a rack, topped, then baked directly on the tiles to finish it off.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #19 on: June 02, 2019, 09:05:07 AM »
Did you take some pics of this result?  :D
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