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Author Topic: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results  (Read 2430 times)

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Offline john_k

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #20 on: June 02, 2019, 04:19:57 PM »
Here are three shots of cold pizza taken just now. It is still delicious even cold :-).

I mixed another batch this morning, and the double hydration (reserving some of the water to add when the high speed mix starts) really changed things a lot.

The dough took a while (maybe 5 minutes) this time to change from sloshing/splashing mud to finally fully pull away from the bowl and start the 'slapping' sound. So it was being stretched that whole time, essentially stuck against the bowl while the mixing hook spun at high speed.

I also refrigerated the autolyse and the water and flour to add, used 10% high gluten flour and 10% whole grain flour (wheat and rye), and 80% Pillsbury BF. After mixing it was still a few degrees warmer than the suggested temp. I refrigerated the dough before the first folding, and by that time the temp was 77 F, where you suggested. I folded it 3x, with 20 minute pauses between, and put it in the fridge to bake either tomorrow or the next day.

At the end of mixing the texture was much, much more like your photo of the dough; satiny and smooth, with a good windowpane. A real joy to handle. Very different from the texture of my no-knead roman doughs.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2019, 06:17:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #21 on: June 02, 2019, 07:26:14 PM »
Ok so the pictures are from the first batch. The crumb seems dense, is it right? Not quite airy?
Looking forward to see the result from this 2nd batch!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline john_k

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2019, 07:24:58 AM »
Yes, the crumb was a bit dense, but I think that may also partly be due to insufficient initial bake time, with the toppings weighing down the dough.

I will take pics before topping the one that is now in the fridge.

Offline john_k

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2019, 07:15:10 PM »
I baked the pizza in two smaller pans, and found it a little challenging to stretch to that size. I will not add the high gluten flour next time (it was 10%); the dough just does not drape and stretch over my arms the way the no-knead dough does.

There was pretty good lift and crumb, though some regions were flat like a bialy.

I baked at 510 for 10 min, allowed to cool, topped one, and put them both back in at 510. The topped pizza was in a small grandma pan, which is thicker steel than the regular teglia pan. The bread loaf was on a granite-ware 1/4 size cookie sheet. I thought the browning was fine.

I topped the pizza with tomatoes that had a little oregano, garlic and olive oil, then grande mozz/prov mix, some shredded yellow squash, and dollops of goat cheese. Pics in the next post

Offline john_k

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2019, 07:18:37 PM »
pics from tonight's pie. Delish.

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Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2019, 08:33:55 PM »
Not bad!!  :D

I have the same problem as seen in pic "crumb2" (the curve which results in a thin part in the middle), this is dough stretching/handling problem. Needs practice.
I think this is a good start, now experience will take over!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #26 on: Yesterday at 02:56:02 PM »
Is it true the typical roman Pala style is usually a same day dough of around 6 hours? I've heard this from the former head baker at Forno Roscioli in an interview (who now owns and runs Farinella in Canada.) Interestingly, Nancy Silverton's "triple beam" in highland park mentioned letting the formed dough balls proof for only one or two hours before stretching after the bulk...

around 2:40 in.

You can also see Rick Easton's Pala dough here. For being such a high hydration it seems very well formed and well proofed... https://www.stirthepots.com/2016/11/bread-and-salt-bakery.html
« Last Edit: Today at 01:55:37 PM by hotsawce »

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #27 on: Yesterday at 10:02:51 PM »
Is it true the typical roman Pala style is usually a same day dough of around 6 hours? I've heard this from the former head baker at Forno Campo De Fiori in an interview (who now owns and runs Farinella in Canada.) Interestingly, Nancy Silverton's "triple beam" in highland park mentioned letting the formed dough balls proof for only one or two hours before stretching after the bulk...

around 2:40 in.

You can also see Rick Easton's Pala dough here. For being such a high hydration it seems very well formed and well proofed... https://www.stirthepots.com/2016/11/bread-and-salt-bakery.html

I don't know if there's a special rule for that. What I know is for their mix Scrocchiarella, Italmill suggest a 24H preferment (50% preferment) + minimum 3H RTF (you can download their PDF here: https://www.italmill.com/pizzas/). That's also what I made with them before. But their flour is a mix, with dry SD and other products which may help for a better digestibility.
I asked Tiziano Casillo (their technical director) if we could also make 24H fermentation, he said yes.
So IMO, like I said recently in a thread about thin Roman pizza, one should think about the right fermentation first. Thing is, in order to absorb high HR you'll generally need a high(er) protein flour*, and the more the gluten the longer the fermentation... So nothing prevents you from making a 72H CF, besides this way you'll have more flavors.
However the tricky part with this kind of highly hydrated dough is that you still need some strength, you don't want it too soft, so the long fermentation might be a problem. I usually do ~24H (CF + RTF), but because it's convenient for me, and every time I think "next time I should make a 48H one"  :-D

I didn't know Mozza Pizza also had this kind of business! When I see that, I want to open one myself... I love to make this style of pizza! And it's :drool:... Besides, it's convenient as a business model: everything is ready in advance, customer doesn't have to wait, less pressure for the staff. And the crusts are par-baked, if you don't sell them today, you can sell them tomorrow. Thanks for the video!

* I have a friend who makes 80% HR teglia with W220 flour :o
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #28 on: Today at 01:56:54 PM »
Yes, I believe traditionally this is a same day dough. The dimpling and stretching seems to be very important.

I tried this with sourdough yesterday and it was actually very elastic - so there was maybe too much strength at an 80% effective hydration!

I bumped it up today and will try again. It was very satisfying, despite the flaws.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #29 on: Today at 07:46:38 PM »
What was your formula and procedure? Did you take pics?

If it was too elastic then it should be because of an insufficient fermentation time, I guess. "Same day dough" can mean different things (fermenting from 1am to 11pm is different than from 11am to 1pm  ;D). Just kidding of course, but you know what I mean  ;)
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Pizza pala/in teglia : same dough 2 different results
« Reply #30 on: Today at 11:09:29 PM »
100% KABF
82% Water
3% salt
20% starter

Autolyse flour and water one hour. Fold in starter with some water. Fold in salt with some water. Bulk with folds every 30 minutes until volume increase or 50%-ish. Fridged till next day (no time to shape that evening.) no further increase when balling next morning. Left to relax then baked at 500 on steel about 12 minutes. This was all hand mixed.

I’m working on getting the thickness right - too thin in spots for sure but the crumb was nice.
I’m not sold on the sourdough. The color is lacking and the texture can get a little chewy. This style requires a pretty active bulk so the balls have strength and I’m not sure that plays well with sourdough. Also not a huge fan of the flavor profile. I may try my low inoculation version in the future but I think commercial yeast is the way to go for this style.

Next time, I’d boost the oven temp. Sometimes there are thin bubbles that cook more quickly, however, and I don’t like that flavor profile with sourdough

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