A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Sourdough culture that seems too active  (Read 1895 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline the1mu

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1210
Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2017, 11:03:15 AM »
I disagree with your disagreement
Mix flour and water together and see what occurs in 19 hours.

I’m gonna misspell this but have you heard of lucanosta bacteria? What you see in a short time is not yeast at all. I believe it’s fairly well documented at this point but I’d have to get on the computer and redo a bunch of reading.

Edit: correct spelling “leuconostoc”
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 11:11:37 AM by the1mu »

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2017, 11:05:52 AM »
I don’t think anyone has mentioned this, but it’s possible your starter has become unbalanced. Where it promotes a lot of LAB activity and very little yeast activity. Just a suspicion as I think I’ve had something similar happen to one of my starters.

Do you use this stater to make bread ever?

An "imbalance" is what I was alluding to in my previous post except its not caused by the starter alone.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2017, 11:09:51 AM »
I’m gonna misspell this but have you heard of lucanosta bacteria? What you see in a short time is not yeast at all. I believe it’s fairly well documented at this point but I’d have to get on the computer and redo a bunch of reading.

By saying "yeast" I was simplifying the post for the OP. Im aware for the various micro organisms in fermenting wheat flour.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2017, 11:19:30 AM »
Ummmmm.... no. The yeast on flour would not, in such a short amount of time “overpower” the leaven. Just not possible.

Aric (the1mu) is completely right.  Any activity from the yeast that may reside in the flour would be minuscule (it does take SEVERAL days to develop a culture) especially if it is battling a culture that is hyperactive.  The problem here is the opposite, his culture is "too" powerful.

And, no, 19 hours rt ferment is not in the least bit a long time.  Many of us do it all the time.  And, it is very common to go 24-48 without even a hint of any kind of competition issues. 

I don’t think anyone has mentioned this, but it’s possible your starter has become unbalanced. Where it promotes a lot of LAB activity and very little yeast activity. Just a suspicion as I think I’ve had something similar happen to one of my starters.

Do you use this stater to make bread ever?

I think Aric's suspicions make a lot of sense.  I do not think this is Ischia, at least anymore.  This kind of activity using such low amounts of Ishchia does not sound right.  It seems like it is somehow corrupted, perhaps by an invading army of bacteria.  It would definitely not be the first time that a member's culture went bad on them. 

Mine doubles (after a 1 water, 1 flour, 2 SD culture) in about 4 hours or so and that is when there is no chill from coming out of the fridge.  And, I believe that timetable is common.

Having said that, the other thing that sounds weird is that the OP says that is feeding regiment results in a "full activated" (doubling?) starter after about 6 hours of feeding (maybe taking more than one feed if it is coming out of the fridge - that is normal).  I cannot reconcile 6 hours to double at room temperature with 19 hours at 65 using 0.9%.  The math does not work well.  Think of it this way - if it doubles every 6 hours, then 19 hours allows for a bit over "3 doublings."  So, 0.9, 1.8, 3.6, 7.2.  7.2% of the dough (if you could actually segregate it) would be preferment/starter.  Lower the temperature to 65 and it is even less.  A reasonably active normal starter cannot work that fast.

My guess is it is time to test the starter itself rather than try to work around this weirdness.  Create a new starter - it will be ready in about a week.

The other thing you may try is to "wash" the starter you have.  This is mentioned in several threads in the forum.  I could not immediately put my finger on one that describes it in good detail (I am sure someone can pitch in) but I found this over at sourdough.com:

http://sourdough.com/comment/reply/26291/8769

which outlines the procedure as follows:

"
TeckPoh: to "wash" the starter is a term that Ed Wood uses in his book and in the booklet that comes with the culture he sells. It goes like this (copied roughly from the booklet):

Dump everything but 1 cup of the starter.
Add 3 cups of warm water and stir.
Repeat step 1.
Add 1 cup of flour and 3/4 cups of warm water.
Proof it between 85º F and 90º F and repeat steps 1 to 4 every 6-12 hours until the culture becomes active 2-4 hours after the last feeding.

I have done this 3 times now, just completed one before posting this. Before last washing the starter had begun to smell "wineish" (but had to stuck the nose, heh), so I think it is doing good, since is similar to what you tell me. After the wash the only odour left is that of flour, of course.
"





Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline the1mu

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1210
Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2017, 11:26:05 AM »
Knowing this is a fairly liquid starter, i am leaning more and more to an overly imbalanced towards LAB problem. It causes a lot of “activity” in terms of look without any actual leavening power.

I think Mitch’s suggestion of “washing” would be a good way to try and rebalance it.

And not specifically helpful but very fun reading if anyone is interested http://comenius.susqu.edu/biol/312/thesourdoughmicroflorabiodiversityandmetabolicinteractions.pdf

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline yarbrough462

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 211
  • Location: San Quirino, Italy
  • An American in Italy
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2017, 11:51:44 AM »

And, no, 19 hours rt ferment is not in the least bit a long time.  Many of us do it all the time.  And, it is very common to go 24-48 without even a hint of any kind of competition issues. 


Absolutely.  I work at a pizzeria locally on occasion solely for experience.  The dough is RT fermented between 24-48 hours depending on shifts in temp in the cellar.  We determine when the dough is ready by it's look and smell.  We use sourdough at about 1 percent.  This is in a relatively low hydration dough.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 12:01:11 PM by yarbrough462 »

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4392
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #26 on: December 19, 2017, 01:53:21 PM »
Aric, thank you for the post..I enjoyed clicking on it and falling out of my chair :-D

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 27641
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2017, 03:29:04 PM »
I’m gonna misspell this but have you heard of lucanosta bacteria? What you see in a short time is not yeast at all. I believe it’s fairly well documented at this point but I’d have to get on the computer and redo a bunch of reading.

Edit: correct spelling “leuconostoc”
Aric,

I and another member played around with doughs that contained no added yeast whatsoever, including natural leavens. I rounded up several relevant posts into a single one, at:

Reply 125 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35873.msg363650;topicseen#msg363650.

Peter

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2017, 03:38:58 PM »

The other thing you may try is to "wash" the starter you have..... 

I think this is a bad idea for several reasons and I doubt its effectiveness.

I believe that if you fed the starter several times over and over several days you would bring the starter to stability. Every time you feed the starter you introduce "yeasts" from colonies from where the grain was grown. The cultures people have purchased are no longer the cultures they were when new.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #29 on: December 19, 2017, 03:42:25 PM »
Absolutely.  I work at a pizzeria locally on occasion solely for experience.  The dough is RT fermented between 24-48 hours depending on shifts in temp in the cellar.  We determine when the dough is ready by it's look and smell.  We use sourdough at about 1 percent.  This is in a relatively low hydration dough.

Do they uses 10-15% of yesterdays dough in this mix on top of the 1% sourdough?

This has been my experience also. Lower hydration doughs tolerate longer rt fermentation.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #30 on: December 19, 2017, 04:47:45 PM »
I think this is a bad idea for several reasons and I doubt its effectiveness.

I believe that if you fed the starter several times over and over several days you would bring the starter to stability. Every time you feed the starter you introduce "yeasts" from colonies from where the grain was grown. The cultures people have purchased are no longer the cultures they were when new.

Regarding effectiveness - I know this is a regimen that Dr. Ed Wood (author on sourdoughs and owner of Sourdoughs International) recommends under certain conditions.  He has a lot more experience and knowledge that most around here - present company included.  Whether or not it is the right fix here - maybe it is and maybe it is not, I do not know.  What I do know, aside from my comment about Wood is that it is cheap (a buck or two of flour), has zero risk (using a segregated batch) and may do the trick to bring the starter into balance.

Regarding the idea that the cultures change - that may or may not be an actual fact.  It is more of an assertion that has been debated in this forum ad nauseam.  If it is true (and has not demonstrated it to be so for me) then the culture has already changed and is probably no longer Ischia - one Ischia does not grow 2 or 4 times (or whatever) faster than another Ischia.  Ischia is Ischia.

So no, there is nothing wrong with the idea.  Remember it is extremely low cost and no risk.  So, there is no downside and learning and/or problem correction is the upside.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 04:49:47 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline yarbrough462

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 211
  • Location: San Quirino, Italy
  • An American in Italy
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #31 on: December 19, 2017, 04:48:33 PM »
Do they uses 10-15% of yesterdays dough in this mix on top of the 1% sourdough?


Nope...

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #32 on: December 19, 2017, 05:01:53 PM »

This has been my experience also. Lower hydration doughs tolerate longer rt fermentation.

In general, higher hydrations doughs ferment faster (or need less SD or yeast) than lower hydration doughs.  RT or CF, same comment directionally.

Having said that, here is a 25% SD pizza that was fermented at RT for 13 hours. 

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28922.msg290880#msg290880


Tolerated that length of time, even with the high amount of SD, just fine.  More than fine.  MaryAnn does a great job with pizza, including long RT SD pizza.

I chimed in at message #11 with my own shot at the pizza.  20 hours with 2% SD at RT. 

Both pies were 80%+ hydration.  So, the tolerance was just fine.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline yarbrough462

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 211
  • Location: San Quirino, Italy
  • An American in Italy
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #33 on: December 19, 2017, 05:08:13 PM »
In general, higher hydrations doughs ferment faster (or need less SD or yeast) than lower hydration doughs.  RT or CF, same comment directionally.

Having said that, here is a 25% SD pizza that was fermented at RT for 13 hours. 

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28922.msg290880#msg290880


Tolerated that length of time, even with the high amount of SD, just fine.  More than fine.  MaryAnn does a great job with pizza, including long RT SD pizza.

I chimed in at message #11 with my own shot at the pizza.  20 hours with 2% SD at RT. 

Both pies were 80%+ hydration.  So, the tolerance was just fine.

That pie of yours is a thing of beauty. Amazing work on that.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4392
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #34 on: December 19, 2017, 05:23:29 PM »
I must have missed that post back then Mitch..I'm not sure I was here yet..I am after all, just a Boy..Back then I was Jersey Pie Infant  :-D    That is one beautiful pie! Mary Ann's also...so what would account for such a large difference in the amount of starter..the times weren't that much different were they? Or do those tempratures make a bigger difference than would seem?   I've been wanting to try some squares and these posts inspire me and answer questions about hydration that I'd wondered...So thank you, and thanks Mary Ann  if you happen to be reading this :)   

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2017, 05:43:34 PM »
That pie of yours is a thing of beauty. Amazing work on that.

Thanks!  I have not made an SD Sicilian in a long time.  I need to go back and do that again! 

I must have missed that post back then Mitch..I'm not sure I was here yet..I am after all, just a Boy..Back then I was Jersey Pie Infant  :-D    That is one beautiful pie! Mary Ann's also...so what would account for such a large difference in the amount of starter..the times weren't that much different were they? Or do those tempratures make a bigger difference than would seem?   I've been wanting to try some squares and these posts inspire me and answer questions about hydration that I'd wondered...So thank you, and thanks Mary Ann  if you happen to be reading this :)   

Hahah JPI is the old name, JPB is the new one.  Ah, they grow up so quickly..... :-D

I think the big difference is the temperatures.  Craig shows in his SD chart thread how to deal with multiple temperatures and times.  But, simple way to look at it.  My pie was set up for 24 hours at about 70 - I used 2% which is the 72 degree line but don't as me to remember that kind of detail!  :P

MaryAnn's pie spent most of its time at 65 degrees and some at 72.  It averaged around 67 (not the technical correct way to use the chart but I am ball parking).  At 67 for 12 hours, the chart shows you need right between 20% and 30% which required 14 hours and 10 hours respectively - ie about 25% @ 12 hours.

The temperature differences matter a lot.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4392
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #36 on: December 19, 2017, 05:52:56 PM »
Thanks Mitch... I guessed that was the case.Those numbers make it very clear. Now I want some Sicilian! :)

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #37 on: December 19, 2017, 05:56:16 PM »
Thanks Mitch... I guessed that was the case.Those numbers make it very clear. Now I want some Sicilian! :)

Hey - MaryAnn is in New Jersey - you need to work on earning an invite to her house!  (And she got a new WFO!)
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4392
  • Location: New Jersey
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #38 on: December 19, 2017, 06:03:53 PM »
 :) ^^^

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5066
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #39 on: December 19, 2017, 06:44:39 PM »
If the dough by the window is getting direct sunlight, it's probably getting much warmer than 65°, even in winter.

Reflecting on the last few posts and on re-reaking charbo's remark, it seems like there is a lot of merit in a temperature check for the reasons charbo described.  Is the fermentation really happening at 65 degrees or is it possible it is actually much higher?  Have you checked?  As discussed, a few degrees can make a big difference in fermentation time.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

A D V E R T I S E M E N T