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Author Topic: Sourdough culture that seems too active  (Read 1708 times)

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Offline the1mu

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #40 on: December 20, 2017, 05:04:28 AM »
Aric, thank you for the post..I enjoyed clicking on it and falling out of my chair :-D

Would you believe I read the whole thing and enjoyed every second of it! Haha.

I wish there was more detail/data on a lot of the points, but it is a great summary article and has lots of implications for the topic at hand. Such as the little variance in bacterial/yeast make up despite centuries of use and varying flour sources....

Hope it is enlightening to others as well!

Offline the1mu

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #41 on: December 20, 2017, 05:08:30 AM »
Reflecting on the last few posts and on re-reaking charbo's remark, it seems like there is a lot of merit in a temperature check for the reasons charbo described.  Is the fermentation really happening at 65 degrees or is it possible it is actually much higher?  Have you checked?  As discussed, a few degrees can make a big difference in fermentation time.

Temp is a very important variable.... but not one that I think would affect it to the degree we are talking about. It has a linear relationship for the most part even with more active/more sluggish starters. Itís not going to be off that much.

Itís for this reason I have pretty much abandoned 100% starters and gone to basically a natural ďbigaĒ (60% hydro). Itís much easier to see if it is responding fine. Iíve had problems with starters that had tons of bubbles from bacteria (assumingely) because when added to make bread, there would be no rise.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #42 on: December 20, 2017, 03:26:19 PM »
In general, higher hydrations doughs ferment faster (or need less SD or yeast) than lower hydration doughs.  RT or CF, same comment directionally.

Having said that, here is a 25% SD pizza that was fermented at RT for 13 hours. 

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28922.msg290880#msg290880


Tolerated that length of time, even with the high amount of SD, just fine.  More than fine.  MaryAnn does a great job with pizza, including long RT SD pizza.

I chimed in at message #11 with my own shot at the pizza.  20 hours with 2% SD at RT. 

Both pies were 80%+ hydration.  So, the tolerance was just fine.

That pie looks great. It's in a pan. Maybe I'll try that for my next Detroit style. My experience with NY style dough at longer rt ferments after a cf  has been it turns pretty flabby and I get oval pies.

I have some dough in the low 50s% now in cf. I'll let it go a week and see what it's like.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 03:32:10 PM by Dangerous Salumi »
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #43 on: December 20, 2017, 04:07:58 PM »
That pie looks great. It's in a pan. Maybe I'll try that for my next Detroit style. My experience with NY style dough at longer rt ferments after a cf  has been it turns pretty flabby and I get oval pies.

I have some dough in the low 50s% now in cf. I'll let it go a week and see what it's like.

Thank you.

Sure, an 80% hydration dough is going to be "flabby."  RT/CF/SD/Yeast, whatever.  With that level of hydration, the consistency is approaching "batter."

Regarding your experience with "flabby" doughs, I am not sure I would pin it on "longer RT" or "longer RT after CF".  The floppiness/flabbiness/extensibility of a dough depends on many things that work in tandem - e.g. the entire fermentation temperature/time protocol, both the RT and CF (if both are used) components together; when/if balling and/or reballing happens; the amount of SD that is used; how the dough is mixed; the final dough temperature, the flour being used, the hydration and more. 


Mitch

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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #44 on: December 20, 2017, 04:15:04 PM »
My experience with NY style dough at longer rt ferments after a cf  has been it turns pretty flabby and I get oval pies.

I have some dough in the low 50s% now in cf. I'll let it go a week and see what it's like.

I don't think that the ferment method has much to do with round pies.  Lots of us do relatively long room ferments pretty routinely and don't have an issue with oval pies.  In my experience, oval pies are caused by poor opening and launch technique.  I have had more than my share of oval pies from poor technique so I am pretty familiar...Even the most over-fermented dough will come out round with the right launch process.   

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #45 on: December 20, 2017, 07:16:01 PM »
I don't think that the ferment method has much to do with round pies.  Lots of us do relatively long room ferments pretty routinely and don't have an issue with oval pies.  In my experience, oval pies are caused by poor opening and launch technique.  I have had more than my share of oval pies from poor technique so I am pretty familiar...Even the most over-fermented dough will come out round with the right launch process.   

Like I have posted in another thread, oval pies are the pinnacle of artistic expression in pizza making. They should be admired like they have all been created by a modern day Picasso.
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ďThey say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.Ē  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Ohiofem

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2018, 05:22:02 PM »
I have been away for a while and didnít see this thread until today. I also have a very active Ischia culture. My experience was very much like the one described in the original post. This culture has been very active from the beginning (6 months or so ago). It became noticeably bubbly within 36 hours the first time I activated it. I have been using cold fermentation for my pizza in spite of the advice of many on this forum because that seems to be the only way to slow this thing down. Even though Iíve only used 5-10 percent culture in my mixes, and put my dough balls in the refrigerator within an hour of mixing, Iíve had the dough double in size within 24 hours. Iíve used the dough for a modified version of Detroit style. The pizza Iíve been making with this culture has been the best Iíve ever made. I donít think my culture has changed since I started it. It still has the same distinctive smell and taste, which is noticeably different from my own home grown culture. I love this stuff.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2018, 06:58:32 PM »
Is this Ischia from sourdo.com?

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2018, 09:38:31 PM »
I have been away for a while and didnít see this thread until today. I also have a very active Ischia culture. My experience was very much like the one described in the original post. This culture has been very active from the beginning (6 months or so ago). It became noticeably bubbly within 36 hours the first time I activated it. I have been using cold fermentation for my pizza in spite of the advice of many on this forum because that seems to be the only way to slow this thing down. Even though Iíve only used 5-10 percent culture in my mixes, and put my dough balls in the refrigerator within an hour of mixing, Iíve had the dough double in size within 24 hours. Iíve used the dough for a modified version of Detroit style. The pizza Iíve been making with this culture has been the best Iíve ever made. I donít think my culture has changed since I started it. It still has the same distinctive smell and taste, which is noticeably different from my own home grown culture. I love this stuff.


Sourdough is really the best way to make pizza.
I use my own levain because I wanted to grow it myself and use it in my own recipes.
Have a Dangerous day!


ďThey say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.Ē  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Ohiofem

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2018, 02:28:17 PM »
Is this Ischia from sourdo.com?

Yes. Iíve maintained it by feeding at least once a week with half Caputo 00 and half KA all purpose flour and Fiji water. Over the holidays I accidentally let it go two weeks without refreshing. When I finally fed it, it came back to life within a few hours. Great stuff.

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Offline RupertPupkin

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Re: Sourdough culture that seems too active
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2018, 06:41:09 PM »
Original poster returning with a report!

Predictably, the issues I was having with the sourdough starter seemed to kind of go away right about the time I posted this. (I'm a bit chagrined to admit this is consistent with the idea that all I had to do was start paying closer attention to temperature, measurements, etc .. although I *swear* I wasn't doing any really dumb stuff like not measuring or leaving it in the sun, etc).

Nevertheless, I was super curious given my history with these issues if my starter was at all different from "normal Ischia" and in the name of science, couldn't resist ordering another packet from sourdo.com, reactivating it, and comparing.

I restarted both cultures multiple times before the experiment in question, each time using precisely measured amounts of KAAP, bottled water and starter. (I used 100g, 100g, 130g respectively, but my thought is that the numbers themselves don't matter, I just want to do this enough times to be confident that the two cultures would have the same hydration ratio as each other by the time I tested. In fact, my general my reading of others posts is that precise ratios don't really matter, I just wanted to rule out all possible sources of difference).

I restarted both at the same time, using that same ratio, and snapped pictures at the start, at 5 hours and at 6.5 hours. This was on a countertop with no sunlight with temp of ~72-73F. In the three pictures, new is on the left, old is on the right.

In conclusion -- I sure can't see any meaningful difference! Again, all consistent with the idea that I had a normal Ischia culture the whole time, and was simply going crazy :). Also consistent with the culture=normal, me=used to be crazy theory is that the rise times/temperatures are a reasonably close match to what's in TXCraig1's table.

For what it's worth, I've also done two side-by-side bakes using one dough with the old culture and one dough with the new culture. Both times, the old was clearly better. I'm not sure what to make of that. It may simply be that I've calibrated all my measurements based on the old culture and that if I adjusted a little bit, I could get pizza with the new one that's just as good. (I know others have mentioned needing to adjust the amounts of culture they use just a tiny bit over time as it weakens).

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