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Offline Irishboy

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Vital wheat gluten
« on: January 09, 2018, 02:48:21 PM »
Anyone try this? Bakers % to add? And do i count it towards total flour?
Josh

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2018, 04:18:18 PM »
Anyone try this? Bakers % to add? And do i count it towards total flour?
Irishboy,

A lot of our members do not like the flavor impact of vital wheat gluten (VWG) but I have used it many times in order to increase the protein content of a given flour to a higher value. In many countries, that is one of the few ways of doing that because their flours are lower in protein than ours here in the U.S., especially at the higher range of protein values. In a lot of the cases where I used VWG it was because I did not have a flour on hand with a high enough protein content.

The VWG becomes part of the total flour blend when added to a given flour. My practice is to use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm to determine how much of a given brand of VWG to add to a given flour with a certain protein content to increase its protein content value to a desired amount. An example might be to increase the protein content of a bread flour to the protein content of a high gluten flour by adding the VWG to the bread flour. But you can't go overboard with the amount of VWG. For example, it is not a good idea to try to increase the protein value of an all purpose flour to that of a high gluten flour. That would be too big a jump.

Peter


Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2018, 04:39:49 PM »
Thank you Peter could you please help me on adive on how you would mix it with my flour?
Mello judith bakers flour i believe 11% protein i have bobs redmill vwg
Josh

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2018, 04:51:09 PM »
I am trying to figure out the tool you posted but to be honest i have no clue how to use it?

I did find this article but not sure if the formula will throw off my hydration % if i add x1. 5 like he suggests?
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2018, 04:51:14 PM »
Thank you Peter could you please help me on adive on how you would mix it with my flour?
Mello judith bakers flour i believe 11% protein i have bobs redmill vwg
Irishboy,

There are differences of opinion on how to combine VWG with a given flour. My practice has always been to stir the VWG in with the flour. But member November, who designed the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator, preferred to mix the VWG in with the water in order to more fully hydrate it, given that the VWG has a different absorption value than the underlying flour. Then he would add the flour. But assuming that you just mix the VWG in with the flour, you should add a bit more water to the hydration value of your basic recipe. That amount is typically 1 to 1.5 times the weight of the amount of VWG you plan to use.

Do you have a target amount of protein that you would like the final blend to have?

Peter

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Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2018, 05:00:11 PM »
Honestly i dont really know what good? I like more of a medium crust like round table or papa jones, not really thin.

From what i understand is 14% is good? Basically trying to get like  a all trumps or something maybe? I use a gas oven @ 550 on a steel.

« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:11:37 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2018, 05:02:32 PM »
The problem is i have a huge bag i got from Costco of the Mellow Judith that i would like to get to a better % like king author or all trumps. I hate to waste to flour everyone sayd my flour is too low for pizza
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2018, 05:24:04 PM »
Honestly i dont really know what good? I like more of a medium crust like round table or papa jones, not really thin.

From what i understand is 14% is good? Basically trying to get like  a all trumps or something maybe? I use a gas oven @ 550 on a steel.

So go a little higher than the x1.5 and maybe start @ x2
Irishboy,

A jump from 11% protein to a high protein flour with a protein content of about 14-14.2% (like the All Trumps flour) using VWG may be too high. But you can try it if you wish. But for teaching purposes here, let us assume that you want to increase the 11% protein content of your Mello Judith flour to 13%. This is how you would use the tool I referenced:

Choose substance A or enter a percentage: Since your flour is not in the pulldown list, you would click the second button and add the number 11

Choose substance B or enter a percentage:: Since your Bob's Red Mill VWG is in the pulldown list, find it and click on it.

Mass: Here you enter the amount of the flour blend you would like to use; for example, let us assume you would like the blend to weigh 300 grams; so you add the number 300 in the Mass block

Next, in the % block, add the number 13

The answers show that the amount of flour (Mass A) is 290.625 grams, and the amount of Bob's Red Mill VWG (Mass B) is 9.375 grams. Of course, you can round the numbers but together the two ingredients should come to 300 grams.

I used grams in the above example but you can use ounces or other weights if you wish.

Peter


Online Jon in Albany

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2018, 05:29:12 PM »
Personally, I've never tried it but I was recently looking at the Modernist For Home book as part of a different discussion and several of their doughs use vital wheat gluten. They specifically call out Bob's Red Mill.

Their no knead uses All purpose flour (100%) and then 1% VWG.

But I haven't tried any of their doughs or VWG. If you DM me an email address I can send you what they do if you are interested in trying it.

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2018, 05:31:31 PM »
Ahh very cool tool! Thanks for taking the time to help me.

So say we stay with the example and i usaly go 63% hydration i would have to bump it up more now or does it balance out with the calculator?

Say if you add to the hydration x1.5 is that the total 300g or just the flour portion if you do the Math to get the vwg%
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:35:20 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2018, 05:31:42 PM »
Irishboy,

To add to my last post, you might also want to read this post where I went into greater detail on the use of VWG:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13744.msg137950#msg137950

As for making too big a protein leap, you might also take a look of this post by member November:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4803.msg40804#msg40804.

Peter

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2018, 05:37:56 PM »
Ahh very cool tool! Thanks for taking the time to help me.

So say we stay with the example and i usaly go 63% hydration i would have to bump it up more now or does it balance out with the calculator?
Irishboy,

Yes, you would have to bump up the hydration a bit by adding a bit more water as mentioned to properly hydrate the VWG. But all of the other ingredients for the dough would remain the same. When you are done, you can use your scale to weigh out the desired final dough ball weight. My practice is to use the bowl residue compensation feature, which will increase the number you put in the Mass box, but you can weigh out the final dough ball weight using your scale.

Peter


Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2018, 05:43:38 PM »
So the math works out to about 3.2% of vwg to flour for a 13% protein.
So i take the 3.2 and multiply by 1.5

3.2x1.5=4.8g of added water ➕ 183.07g for 63%hydration on the flour =187.87
Using the example of the 290g flour for the 300g ball weigh

Then take the  total flour and do the 63%hydration with the flour only not the vgw

Sound about right?
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:48:33 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2018, 05:47:51 PM »
Say if you add to the hydration x1.5 is that the total 300g or just the flour portion if you do the Math to get the vwg%
Irishboy,

If I understand your question correctly, the 300 grams is the weight of only the flour and the added VWG. To get to the amount of water to add to your 63% hydration value to compensate for the VWG, you multiply the weight (Mass B) of the VWG by 1.5-2 times and add that amount of water to your 63% hydration value. There is no need to re-compute the hydration value to reflect the added water but you can do that if you wish. You can also convert the VWG to a percent but I do not think that you want to use that number in the dough calculating tool if that is what you use. The percents of the remaining ingredients will be with respect to the 300 grams, that is, the blend.

Peter

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2018, 05:49:40 PM »
So the math works out to about 3.2% of vwg to flour for a 13% protein.
So i take the 3.2 and multiply by 1.5

3.2x1.5=4.8g of added water ➕ 183.07g for 63%hydration on the flour =187.87
Using the example of the 290g flour for the 300g ball weigh

Then take the  total flour and do the 63%hydration with the flour only not the vgw

Sound about right?
Irishboy,

We were both posting at about the same time, but I think I answered your questions in my last post.

Peter

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Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2018, 05:53:53 PM »
Irishboy,

If I understand your question correctly, the 300 grams is the weight of only the flour and the added VWG. To get to the amount of water to add to your 63% hydration value to compensate for the VWG, you multiply the weight (Mass B) of the VWG by 1.5-2 times and add that amount of water to your 63% hydration value. There is no need to re-compute the hydration value to reflect the added water but you can do that if you wish. You can also convert the VWG to a percent but I do not think that you want to use that number in the dough calculating tool if that is what you use. The percents of the remaining ingredients will be with respect to the 300 grams, that is, the blend.

Peter

Sorry i guess i was making it harder while i was editing my last post.

You way  is simple.
63% of flour only
 then take the grams needed for vwg and multiply 1.5 and call it good.

Everything like. Salt and ect goes off of the. 300g still not the 290g of flour

Thanks pete
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 05:55:30 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2018, 05:56:09 PM »
Irishboy,

To see an example of what a dough formulation using VWG might look like, and since you mentioned Papa John's, see the Papa John's clone dough formulation (and related discussion) at Reply 1297 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg495342#msg495342

Peter

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2018, 06:04:43 PM »
Thanks Pete.

Makes perfect sense

I wish i could get the dough calculator to eork but i guess my phone doesn't support it so i just do Everything on a regular calculator.
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2018, 06:10:03 PM »
Tom was. Almost dead of with the calculator on his Article very cool
 
Josh

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Re: Vital wheat gluten
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 06:17:35 PM »
Thanks Pete.

Makes perfect sense

I wish i could get the dough calculator to eork but i guess my phone doesn't support it so i just do Everything on a regular calculator.
Irishboy,

The times they are a changin' and Steve, as an IT professional, is well aware of it and plans to have replacements for the existing dough calculating tools at some point, either of his doing or other members on the forum. It was another expert (Mike, aka Boy Hits Car) who worked with me to come up with the existing dough calculating tools. It was a wonderful experience. I also enjoyed working with member November to come up with some of his tools. We are graced to have so many talented members. That is also true of Tom Lehmann, who was my inspiration when I decided to learn about pizza making in a serious way. It was the math and science that did it for me.

Peter

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