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Author Topic: What effect does % of starter have?  (Read 3605 times)

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Offline Jr07

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What effect does % of starter have?
« on: January 11, 2018, 11:31:15 PM »
Can anyone tell me what % of starter effect has on final product?
What is the difference between a pizza with 20% of starter vs 5% of starter? Making all else the same
J

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2018, 12:30:44 AM »
Can anyone tell me what % of starter effect has on final product?
What is the difference between a pizza with 20% of starter vs 5% of starter? Making all else the same
J

It has the same effect as using different amounts of commercial yeast.  Your amount of starter has to be in line with your desired fermentation time and temperature.  That’s why most of us here will recommend TXCraigs starter prediction model.  If you know your desired dough use time and the temp in your fermentation area, you can get the dough to be ready at about the exact time.  You can then adjust by either warming or cooling the dough to fine tune the fermentation at the end.

There are those on here that will tell you that a certain percentage is the way to go.  That may work for them in their circumstances, but it probably won't work for you since their conditions are going to be different.  The thread below is a great place to start. I suggest reading it from start to finish.  There is a ton of good advice on percentages and salt levels and then there is some other stuff.  This will help you weed out the bad information this question may generate.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49654.0
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 06:22:10 AM by yarbrough462 »

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2018, 07:29:33 AM »
Can anyone tell me what % of starter effect has on final product?
What is the difference between a pizza with 20% of starter vs 5% of starter? Making all else the same
J

20%-40% is what is recommended by ABI (American Baking Institute), King Authur flour and many other well recognized institutions.

What type of “starter” are your using? Is it industrial yeast water and flour or a natural culture commonly referred to as sourdough or levain ?
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline the1mu

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2018, 08:00:29 AM »
20%-40% is what is recommended by ABI (American Baking Institute), King Authur flour and many other well recognized institutions.

What type of “starter” are your using? Is it industrial yeast water and flour or a natural culture commonly referred to as sourdough or levain ?

You have mentioned this a few times. While you are correct, you often fail to mention this % is recommended for bakeries making bread. Not home environments and definitely not for pizza.

It’s not wrong to use those numbers, but those recommendations are not geared towards pizza making.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2018, 01:18:57 PM »
It has the same effect as using different amounts of commercial yeast.  Your amount of starter has to be in line with your desired fermentation time and temperature. 

It does that, and it also has parallels to the direct/indirect use of commercial yeast where using a small % (~<3%* SD) is generally analogous to the direct method where the yeast is added directly to the dough, and larger quantities such as 20% has similarities to the indirect (preferment/poolish) method. As you can imagine, adding a large amount of acids, enzymes, and other fermentation byproducts directly to the dough will result in a different crust as compared to letting these develop in the dough slowly over time.

The style of pizza also matters, I think the differences are more pronounced in Neapolitan pizza as compared to all other styles which are more bread-like. Using large quantities of sourdough is a bread-making technique adapted to American-styles of pizza. IMO, the crust qualities that make for great Neapolitan pizza are all compromised by the indirect use of sourdough. It makes for a tougher, more sour, less desirable crumb structure, and generally out of balance crust.

* Obviously there is no exact answer as to what this number is. I chose 3% because in Naples, traditionally it's <5% of the water weight which, depending on your hydration%, is about 3% of the flour weight.
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 01:42:31 PM »
20%-40% is what is recommended by ABI (American Baking Institute), King Authur flour and many other well recognized institutions.

What type of “starter” are your using? Is it industrial yeast water and flour or a natural culture commonly referred to as sourdough or levain ?

Can you please be a bit more specific on these recommendations you believe you received?

For example, was 20% - 40% offered up as a recommendation regardless of time or temperature?  Or, was the range offered up as amounts to use for a same day room temperature pizza?  What were the parameters - be it time, temperature, pizza style, something else or none?  Perhaps they were not discussed and only SD amount was discussed?
Mitch

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Offline the1mu

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 07:22:39 PM »
Can you please be a bit more specific on these recommendations you believe you received?

For example, was 20% - 40% offered up as a recommendation regardless of time or temperature?  Or, was the range offered up as amounts to use for a same day room temperature pizza?  What were the parameters - be it time, temperature, pizza style, something else or none?  Perhaps they were not discussed and only SD amount was discussed?
Mitch, not sure what DS will say, but I’m pretty sure the source is referring to bread making and is mostly speaking from a commercial stand point that has been adapted or represented to a home environment.

Offline bradtri

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2018, 11:27:54 AM »
Can anyone tell me what % of starter effect has on final product?
What is the difference between a pizza with 20% of starter vs 5% of starter? Making all else the same
J

Just to clarify, by saying "making all else the same", you are referring only to the other dough ingredients and not time/temperature?  If time/temperature were held the same, then clearly the 20% would be way ahead in fermentation compared to the 5%.
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2018, 01:57:57 PM »
So, I did a little experiment over the last few days.  I had a large group of folks coming over for pizza tonight.  This is happening more frequent since I got the Pizza Party oven...Anyway...I did a 48 hour ferment at 1.5 percent and an 18 hour ferment at 15 percent. The verdict between the two is..............They both came out amazing...If anything, the 48 hour ferment at 1.5 percent had a bit more tang to it.  I used TXCraigs sourdough prediction model and hit it on the head twice.  I did have to slow the 1.5 percent dough down the last few hours but that is because we had an unseasonably warm day the first day and it moved the temp in my kitchen up a degree or two for a bit.  Next time, I will probably use a cooler for such a long ferment to keep the temps more stable.  All of this confirms, to me, what most of us have been saying.  It's all about using the proper amount of SD for your particular need.  There is no magic number.  BTW, several of my guests tonight said today's pizza was the best they have ever had out of my kitchen.  I didn't tell them I had done it all with SD until they commented.  It confirmed what I already knew.  SD beats commercial yeast any day when it comes to flavor.  You just have to be willing, and have the time, to use it correctly because it is more fickle than commercial yeast...
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 04:41:18 AM by yarbrough462 »

Offline mitchjg

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2018, 05:53:56 PM »
Can you please be a bit more specific on these recommendations you believe you received?

For example, was 20% - 40% offered up as a recommendation regardless of time or temperature?  Or, was the range offered up as amounts to use for a same day room temperature pizza?  What were the parameters - be it time, temperature, pizza style, something else or none?  Perhaps they were not discussed and only SD amount was discussed?

At least so far, DS has not decided to provide any further information regarding the recommendations of 20% - 40% from KA or the American Baking Institute [sic].  Perhaps he will soon.

Having said that, I thought I would share some comments, including feedback from a professional baker at King Arthur.  I had an online chat with Maggie and here, in this post, are some observations she provided.

Note: I am paraphrasing some questions and answers for simplicity - but the full script is included in this post in case you wish to check, etc.  I would not want to misrepresent anything and your interpretations or insights from the conversation may be different.

- Is there a recommended or "best" amount of starter to use for sourdough pizza?

  A. "Honestly, it just depends."

 She further indicated that one could start in a range of 20% to 40%.  The range was what I was able to calculate base on a "cups of flour" descriptions she gave me.  She further indicated that one could use one of their sourdough bread recipes and use it for pizza.  For further context, if you do a search on their website for sourdough bread (https://search.kingarthurflour.com/search?p=Q&lbc=kingarthurflour&uid=644921449&ts=custom&w=sourdough%20bread&isort=score&method=and&view=grid&af=recipe_cat1%3abread%20type%3arecipes) you will find that the recipes are either same day sourdough or include a one night refrigeration.  As an additional example of where the KA focus is, you may be familiar with the book "Bread" by Jeffrey Hamelman.  Hamelman is the head baker at KA.  His book has a plethora of sourdough bread recipes and it has one pizza recipe.  The pizza recipe uses IDY. 

- What about a sourdough dough that is refrigerated for 5 days, then warmed up and baked?

A. "I wouldn't recommend it"
 
She described the likelihood that by then the dough will have lost its sugars and starches resulting in a poor rise and browning.

- What about a 24 hour rise at a cool room temperature using less starter?

A. "You would need to chill the dough for the longer rise time. But I would also worry about the yeast (especially wild yeast) loosing it's "umph" or ability to rise well.  On the other hand you would get really great flavor and a nice chewier texture to the crust. "

When I got a little more specific, using 60 degrees as an example, she indicated I would have a lot more flexibility and said "To be honest you may just have to try it to get a solid answer, so much of it will depend on the strength of the starter. "

Good conversation.  I would also offer the following thoughts:

- KA is primarily about bread and not pizza.  Certainly not sourdough pizza.  They have thousands of recipes on their website but if you type in "sourdough pizza" in their search bar, you will get one recipe.  It is same day and includes both SD and IDY.  They also have few if any recipes that are anything but either same day breads or breads with an overnight refrigeration.  It is OK that their focus is on bread and not pizza - they are a wonderful place and have great expertise.  But, I would contend that the collective knowledge available from the experienced people on this forum is where it is at. 

- They are not "about" long rises - be it CF or RT.  Their recipes and focus are on same day doughs or doughs that are retarded overnight (just one).

- Context matters.  20%-40% is fine under certain conditions.  Not so much, other conditions and/or differing styles.  It is not a "best" or "right" answer.  As Maggie said at the onset "It depends."  There are a lot of variable to manage and without context, any of us can end up missing an issue, or dispensing/receiving well intended but not great advice.

Regarding the other well known institution, (the correct name is) the American Institute of Baking (AIB).  It is where our Dough Doctor comes from and we are lucky to have him here.  He was the pizza master at AIB so I would think he can easily represent what their recommendations may be for a home baker.  I have not queried him about all of this and any of your are, of course, welcome to do so.  I love his detailed answers to things and the deep insights he has into the chemistry of dough.  I suspect he will not tell us "the answer is X% SD" but I leave it to him.

Sorry about the lengthy post.  Having said that, I was reminded by Peter this week that more detail is often better than less and that we all learn more when there is good detail provided and that the detail is often craved.  I hope this was helpful.

****************************************************************


Here is the script:

Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:13:10 AM): Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
Me (1/13/2018, 9:14:44 AM): Hello.  I am planning on making a pizza using sourdough starter - no commercial yeast.  I am wondering if you folks have a recommended or "best" amount of starter to use for this.  And, is there a recommended or "best" timetable and temperature level.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:15:56 AM): Honestly it really just depends. I know that is not the best answer... But I would start with 1 to 1/2 cups of feed starter for a typical pizza crust recipe.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:16:16 AM): Compared to how much flour?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:18:17 AM): 3 to 4 cups of flour.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:18:40 AM): You know what you also try....
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:19:40 AM): Is using a recipe for a sourdough bread recipe and using a slightly stronger flour if you want a chewier crust. Here is one from our website:
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:20:04 AM): https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe
Me (1/13/2018, 9:20:10 AM): Thanks!
Me (1/13/2018, 9:26:51 AM): u there?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:27:40 AM): Was there anything else that I could help you with today Mitch?
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:06 AM): yes, sorry.  I thought you were "typing".
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:07 AM): What would you think of making a pizza dough and then putting it in the fridge for several days (say 5) and then warming it up and baking?  Would there be some good benefits or downsides if I did something like that?  Again, no yeast, just sourdough.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:28:35 AM): After 5 days you will generally have lost all the sugars and starches in your dough so you may not have enough to get a good rise, or solid browning to the crust. I wouldn't recommend it.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:45 AM): OK, thanks.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:30:05 AM): Another question (I am interested in time, temperature and sourdough amount - that is why I am asking).  If I made a pizza dough with much less starter and then fermented it for, say, 24 hours - would that have some good benefits or downsides?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:32:20 AM): You would need to chill the dough for the longer rise time. But I would also worry about the yeast (especially wild yeast) loosing it's "umph" or ability to rise well.  On the other hand you would get really great flavor and a nice chewier texture to the crust.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:34:45 AM): Thanks, that is helpful.  I was thinking that I would do it at room temperature (or a cool room - like 60 degrees) but use much less starter and then give it a good long time to rise - as you said, to get great flavor and a nice crust texture.  If I used a very small amount of starter woud that offset any need to "chill" it (so I would use a cool room, rather than put in the fridge)?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:36:31 AM): If you've got a room down near 60 that would give you quite a bit more flexibility for an overnight rise. To be honest you may just have to try it to get a solid answer, so much of it will depend on the strength of the starter.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:37:07 AM): Thanks very much.  You were very helpful - I appreciate your time!
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:37:16 AM): Happy Baking!
Me (1/13/2018, 9:37:23 AM): Bye!





« Last Edit: January 13, 2018, 05:56:10 PM by mitchjg »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2018, 06:15:31 PM »
Quote
KA is primarily about bread and not pizza. Certainly not sourdough pizza. 

This is the salient point. With all due respect to the good folks at KA, they like the VAST majority of professionals who write about "pizza" be it in cookbooks, websites, or wherever know little if anything about [capital "P"] Pizza. They may know something about flat bread with stuff on it, however it's just that - flat bread with stuff on it.
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2018, 04:38:01 AM »
At least so far, DS has not decided to provide any further information regarding the recommendations of 20% - 40% from KA or the American Baking Institute [sic].  Perhaps he will soon.

Having said that, I thought I would share some comments, including feedback from a professional baker at King Arthur.  I had an online chat with Maggie and here, in this post, are some observations she provided.

Note: I am paraphrasing some questions and answers for simplicity - but the full script is included in this post in case you wish to check, etc.  I would not want to misrepresent anything and your interpretations or insights from the conversation may be different.

- Is there a recommended or "best" amount of starter to use for sourdough pizza?

  A. "Honestly, it just depends."

 She further indicated that one could start in a range of 20% to 40%.  The range was what I was able to calculate base on a "cups of flour" descriptions she gave me.  She further indicated that one could use one of their sourdough bread recipes and use it for pizza.  For further context, if you do a search on their website for sourdough bread (https://search.kingarthurflour.com/search?p=Q&lbc=kingarthurflour&uid=644921449&ts=custom&w=sourdough%20bread&isort=score&method=and&view=grid&af=recipe_cat1%3abread%20type%3arecipes) you will find that the recipes are either same day sourdough or include a one night refrigeration.  As an additional example of where the KA focus is, you may be familiar with the book "Bread" by Jeffrey Hamelman.  Hamelman is the head baker at KA.  His book has a plethora of sourdough bread recipes and it has one pizza recipe.  The pizza recipe uses IDY. 

- What about a sourdough dough that is refrigerated for 5 days, then warmed up and baked?

A. "I wouldn't recommend it"
 
She described the likelihood that by then the dough will have lost its sugars and starches resulting in a poor rise and browning.

- What about a 24 hour rise at a cool room temperature using less starter?

A. "You would need to chill the dough for the longer rise time. But I would also worry about the yeast (especially wild yeast) loosing it's "umph" or ability to rise well.  On the other hand you would get really great flavor and a nice chewier texture to the crust. "

When I got a little more specific, using 60 degrees as an example, she indicated I would have a lot more flexibility and said "To be honest you may just have to try it to get a solid answer, so much of it will depend on the strength of the starter. "

Good conversation.  I would also offer the following thoughts:

- KA is primarily about bread and not pizza.  Certainly not sourdough pizza.  They have thousands of recipes on their website but if you type in "sourdough pizza" in their search bar, you will get one recipe.  It is same day and includes both SD and IDY.  They also have few if any recipes that are anything but either same day breads or breads with an overnight refrigeration.  It is OK that their focus is on bread and not pizza - they are a wonderful place and have great expertise.  But, I would contend that the collective knowledge available from the experienced people on this forum is where it is at. 

- They are not "about" long rises - be it CF or RT.  Their recipes and focus are on same day doughs or doughs that are retarded overnight (just one).

- Context matters.  20%-40% is fine under certain conditions.  Not so much, other conditions and/or differing styles.  It is not a "best" or "right" answer.  As Maggie said at the onset "It depends."  There are a lot of variable to manage and without context, any of us can end up missing an issue, or dispensing/receiving well intended but not great advice.

Regarding the other well known institution, (the correct name is) the American Institute of Baking (AIB).  It is where our Dough Doctor comes from and we are lucky to have him here.  He was the pizza master at AIB so I would think he can easily represent what their recommendations may be for a home baker.  I have not queried him about all of this and any of your are, of course, welcome to do so.  I love his detailed answers to things and the deep insights he has into the chemistry of dough.  I suspect he will not tell us "the answer is X% SD" but I leave it to him.

Sorry about the lengthy post.  Having said that, I was reminded by Peter this week that more detail is often better than less and that we all learn more when there is good detail provided and that the detail is often craved.  I hope this was helpful.

****************************************************************


Here is the script:

Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:13:10 AM): Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
Me (1/13/2018, 9:14:44 AM): Hello.  I am planning on making a pizza using sourdough starter - no commercial yeast.  I am wondering if you folks have a recommended or "best" amount of starter to use for this.  And, is there a recommended or "best" timetable and temperature level.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:15:56 AM): Honestly it really just depends. I know that is not the best answer... But I would start with 1 to 1/2 cups of feed starter for a typical pizza crust recipe.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:16:16 AM): Compared to how much flour?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:18:17 AM): 3 to 4 cups of flour.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:18:40 AM): You know what you also try....
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:19:40 AM): Is using a recipe for a sourdough bread recipe and using a slightly stronger flour if you want a chewier crust. Here is one from our website:
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:20:04 AM): https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/extra-tangy-sourdough-bread-recipe
Me (1/13/2018, 9:20:10 AM): Thanks!
Me (1/13/2018, 9:26:51 AM): u there?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:27:40 AM): Was there anything else that I could help you with today Mitch?
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:06 AM): yes, sorry.  I thought you were "typing".
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:07 AM): What would you think of making a pizza dough and then putting it in the fridge for several days (say 5) and then warming it up and baking?  Would there be some good benefits or downsides if I did something like that?  Again, no yeast, just sourdough.
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:28:35 AM): After 5 days you will generally have lost all the sugars and starches in your dough so you may not have enough to get a good rise, or solid browning to the crust. I wouldn't recommend it.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:28:45 AM): OK, thanks.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:30:05 AM): Another question (I am interested in time, temperature and sourdough amount - that is why I am asking).  If I made a pizza dough with much less starter and then fermented it for, say, 24 hours - would that have some good benefits or downsides?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:32:20 AM): You would need to chill the dough for the longer rise time. But I would also worry about the yeast (especially wild yeast) loosing it's "umph" or ability to rise well.  On the other hand you would get really great flavor and a nice chewier texture to the crust.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:34:45 AM): Thanks, that is helpful.  I was thinking that I would do it at room temperature (or a cool room - like 60 degrees) but use much less starter and then give it a good long time to rise - as you said, to get great flavor and a nice crust texture.  If I used a very small amount of starter woud that offset any need to "chill" it (so I would use a cool room, rather than put in the fridge)?
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:36:31 AM): If you've got a room down near 60 that would give you quite a bit more flexibility for an overnight rise. To be honest you may just have to try it to get a solid answer, so much of it will depend on the strength of the starter.
Me (1/13/2018, 9:37:07 AM): Thanks very much.  You were very helpful - I appreciate your time!
Maggie P (1/13/2018, 9:37:16 AM): Happy Baking!
Me (1/13/2018, 9:37:23 AM): Bye!

Great post Mitch! 

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2018, 10:35:01 AM »
It is great, and thanks for that work, Mitch.


It's clear from that, and from what you and Craig noted above, that to find some of the most expert knowledge of sourdough and pizza, one of the best..if not, really, the absolute best!..we don;t need to venture anywhere but these pages.
 
 



Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2018, 06:19:35 PM »
I think its really great I have been able to recently drive an in-depth discussion on % sourdough starter. This will benefit the other forum members I’m sure.

Sorry if I didn’t come to the “Starters” page of the forum earlier to participate in this thread. I have had bad experiences here with one of the forum’s well known and frequent posting members so I chose avoid conflict and not come here very often.

So anyhow...

IMHO dismissing recommendations because “they are  bread makers and not pizza makers” is simply a poor excuse for not wanting to do a deep dive into the numbers.

I don’t see any disadvantages, however I do see many advantages with recommending 20% levain and I still believe for the home baker it is the best way to go. This is clearly supported with even basic internet searches.

The micro percentages ie (1-5%) are better suited to a controlled environment that someone might find in a research institution and not the counter of someones counter at  home.

To think that you will get the same flavor with the a micro percentage for a long ferment as you would with 20-40% with a shorter ferment I believe is an incorrect assumption.

The growth formula that was copied out of a research paper and put into a spreadsheet and posted as Gospel I believe is doing a great disservice to the forum memebers.











Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline mitchjg

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2018, 07:04:54 PM »
Thanks for your reply.  My question about the context of the conversations you said you had has not really been addressed...
I did, however, seek context in my conversation with KA and documented it.  A context free relating of a conversation regarding 20% leaven was the issue.

Regarding your other comments, I would offer this:


IMHO dismissing recommendations because “they are  bread makers and not pizza makers” is simply a poor excuse for not wanting to do a deep dive into the numbers.

Not dismissed but the areas of greater and lesser expertise matter.  And, the process for a loaf of bread and a pizza process are not the same.

Numbers? - Say more about the numbers you believe are not dived into and dive away.


I don’t see any disadvantages, however I do see many advantages with recommending 20% levain and I still believe for the home baker it is the best way to go. This is clearly supported with even basic internet searches.

It is not simply about the 20%, it is about the full context.  20% for one day (could be fine) is not the same thing as 20% for 7 days under CF.  The former is common, the latter not so much.  Please note the KA comments about the depletion of sugars, rise, crust, etc.


The micro percentages ie (1-5%) are better suited to a controlled environment that someone might find in a research institution and not the counter of someones counter at  home.

To think that you will get the same flavor with the a micro percentage for a long ferment as you would with 20-40% with a shorter ferment I believe is an incorrect assumption.

They are not that micro - but yes, that level requires more effort related to temperature control.  Craig actually uses an ice chest.  Others find a spot in their basement and the like.  I have a dorm fridge with a thermostat.

1% - 1.5% is one example (about 48 hours).  Another, which I (and others) frequently use is 24 hours and thereabouts; e.g. 10% for 24 hours.

No one I know said you get the same flavor.  Flavor preferences vary.  Not everyone wants oodles of tang.  Some like some subtlety and nuance in flavor.  Others like lots and lots of tang. 


The growth formula that was copied out of a research paper and put into a spreadsheet and posted as Gospel I believe is doing a great disservice to the forum memebers.


That is not what Craig did - not even close.  No religious association either.
Mitch

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Offline vtsteve

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2018, 07:50:14 PM »
Just for giggles, I mixed a bread dough this afternoon with 2% starter, 2% salt, 70% hydration, 80% KA A/P, 20% KA Hi-X... I've been folding it every couple of hours and it's starting to rise. It'll probably get baked tomorrow night.
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Offline the1mu

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What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2018, 07:54:11 PM »
Sorry if I didn’t come to the “Starters” page of the forum earlier to participate in this thread. I have had bad experiences here with one of the forum’s well known and frequent posting members so I chose avoid conflict and not come here very often.

For what it is worth, conflict is not a bad thing. Forums exist in order to debate! As long as we aren’t resorting to personal attacks. Try and have somewhat of a thick skin because when someone says “prove it” it is not a personal attack. When opinions are given, they must be substantiated. It’s how it works. So try not to take things personally and be willing to offer lots of detail. Everyone will benefit.


IMHO dismissing recommendations because “they are  bread makers and not pizza makers” is simply a poor excuse for not wanting to do a deep dive into the numbers.

As Mitch said, no one is dismissing. We are contextualizing. A bad analogy: taking advice from a mechanic who specializes in Honda Prius about your classic ‘73 Ford Mustang. He may not be wrong, he may even himself have limited experience with that car, but what he says will need to be weighed, considered, adapted and even possibly flat out discarded.

I am a baker and a pizza maker. I always treat the two as distinct because they are and yet my work with one does benefit my work with the other. But I don’t ever just think they are the same


I don’t see any disadvantages, however I do see many advantages with recommending 20% levain and I still believe for the home baker it is the best way to go. This is clearly supported with even basic internet searches.

Again, this is where I would ask you to cite references from YOUR OWN internet searches. How do I know that what I’m reading is the same as you?

Regarding disadvantages for 20%, there truly are many potential disadvantages (especially when doing longer fermentation -either RT or CF):

Gluten degradation (tacky dough, tearing, poor oven spring, etc), poor crust coloration, dense crumb structure, and even the tang (depending on taste preference could be listed as a disadvantage), etc.

I would hardly consider doing a 20% leavening as you suggest without serious consideration of time and temperature. 20% at 80° and 60° will yield vastly different windows of usability and flavor profiles and disadvantages. And just saying “use CF” doesn’t eliminate the other variables.

Blanket statements don’t honestly help anyone, and are not beneficial to the members here. Everyone’s situation and goals are different. Therefore we try and understand what people are going for and based on the VAST wealth of experience here, someone will be able to help them achieve their individual goals. 20%, 7 day CF will no get me what I am going for in pizza.

So please keep contributing... but with information and specific statements (not blanket ones).

Glad you’re here DS!
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 08:09:30 PM by the1mu »

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2018, 08:04:35 PM »


Glad you’re here DS!

Thanks. More later. Making dinner.
Have a Dangerous day!


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Online Pete-zza

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2018, 09:52:49 PM »
I think its really great I have been able to recently drive an in-depth discussion on % sourdough starter. This will benefit the other forum members I’m sure.

Sorry if I didn’t come to the “Starters” page of the forum earlier to participate in this thread. I have had bad experiences here with one of the forum’s well known and frequent posting members so I chose avoid conflict and not come here very often.

So anyhow...

IMHO dismissing recommendations because “they are  bread makers and not pizza makers” is simply a poor excuse for not wanting to do a deep dive into the numbers.

I don’t see any disadvantages, however I do see many advantages with recommending 20% levain and I still believe for the home baker it is the best way to go. This is clearly supported with even basic internet searches.

The micro percentages ie (1-5%) are better suited to a controlled environment that someone might find in a research institution and not the counter of someones counter at  home.

To think that you will get the same flavor with the a micro percentage for a long ferment as you would with 20-40% with a shorter ferment I believe is an incorrect assumption.

The growth formula that was copied out of a research paper and put into a spreadsheet and posted as Gospel I believe is doing a great disservice to the forum memebers.
DS,

The 1-5% figure for the natural starter has its origins back to 2005 when member pizzanapoletana (Marco Parente) introduced the Crisceto method to the members in Reply 10 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=861.msg8679#msg8679. Not long thereafter, I played around with his recommended 1-5% natural starter in a home room temperature environment even though I knew very little about what I was doing or what to expect. A typical example is the one at Reply 44 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=986.msg9367#msg9367.

Marco early on drew a distinction between bread dough and pizza dough, as noted in his post cited above. Over the years, he would repeat that statement several times.

More than once, I have suggested that members read all of Marco's posts, as I have done on more than one occasion. Doing that is like getting a degree in Neapolitan pizza making.

Marco went on to introduce his sourdough methods, as a consultant, to Franco Manca (http://www.francomanca.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/FrancoMancaMenu.pdf), in the UK. There are now about 42 stores in the Franco Manca chain. Franco Manca is considered one of the best pizzerias in London. And Marco has been credited with his contribution to the dough recipe used by Franco Manca: http://www.guildford-dragon.com/2016/05/22/shop-front-eat-one-pizza-year-make-sure-franco-manca/.

For the record, I have also played around with using a lot more natural starter in the context of cold fermentation. An example is discussed at Reply 151 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774. As noted at the end of that post, I felt that a room temperature fermented dough produced a more flavorful crust. That was just my personal opinion.

Peter

 

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2018, 08:31:35 AM »
Quote
and posted as Gospel I believe is doing a great disservice to the forum memebers.

I believe that this is at least the fifth time you’ve implicitly or explicitly condemned the models, and you’ve yet to give even one specific reason why. There are literally hundreds of people who would disagree with you (and for that matter, I doubt that you can find even one who agrees). What exactly makes them “a great disservice?” You also wrote: “I believe that their premises are also suspect.” How about some specifics for a change? On what are you basing your belief?

“Posted as Gospel?” When did I ever claim anything of the sort? Did you bother to read the threads associated with the models? This is from the initial post of the SD model which is the first of the two created:

“This model should help identify a starting point for starter quantity and/or fermentation time in a new sourdough-leavened dough. It’s a generalized model, so as you would expect, changes in culture, hydration, salinity, dough mass, etc. will likely affect the fermentation time; therefore experimentation will be necessary to fine tune a specific dough formula.”

Likewise, from Reply 19 in the baker’s yeast model:

“it’s intended to be a starting point – not a guaranteed solution to every formulation question. Today if someone has a particular dough and wants to increase or decrease the fermentation time or maybe try something new from scratch, they could look through 100’s of posts and never find the yeast information they need to get started. This chart is intended to simplify that process – to give people a place to start. They will still need to experiment and fine tune things.”

If you go back and read my posts referring people to the models, you will find MANY similar qualifications. Never have I even remotely implied that they are “gospel.” Never.

Quote
The growth formula that was copied out of a research paper and put into a spreadsheet

As Mitch noted above, this is demonstrably wrong, and again if you took the time to read the threads, you would know it. I went into some detail with each as to how they were developed. I even posted the data that Peter helped me find that served to tune the baker’s yeast model: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg394399#msg394399

Quote
I don’t see any disadvantages, however I do see many advantages with recommending 20% levain and I still believe for the home baker it is the best way to go. This is clearly supported with even basic internet searches.

You’re probably right that large amounts of starter may be the best way for the beginner home baker to go since it’s more-or-less foolproof - NOT because it necessarily makes better pizza - and not for 3+ days. Large yeast/culture quantities and cold fermentation are often recommended simply because it’s easy and relatively foolproof - and often because the person making the recommendation doesn't know any better. If you think I'm wrong about this, let's hear some detailed specifics - not more nebulous claims of research. BTW, how much experience do you have with <3% SD anyway?

Quote
The micro percentages ie (1-5%) are better suited to a controlled environment that someone might find in a research institution and not the counter of someones counter at  home.

I bet pizzaiolos in Naples using SD would get a good laugh out of you equating their kitchens with “research institutions.”

Quote
To think that you will get the same flavor with the a micro percentage for a long ferment as you would with 20-40% with a shorter ferment I believe is an incorrect assumption.

Again, do you bother to read before you go shooting off your mouth? For example, just a couple posts above,

As you can imagine, adding a large amount of acids, enzymes, and other fermentation byproducts directly to the dough will result in a different crust as compared to letting these develop in the dough slowly over time.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2018, 07:08:29 PM by TXCraig1 »
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