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Author Topic: What effect does % of starter have?  (Read 3343 times)

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2018, 09:18:22 AM »
DS,


I'm not an expert baker or  pizza maker, but I've baked a lot of pizza and a lot of bread. And I can tell you that you're posting information that itself may very well be a disservice to newer members. And by the way, you are one of those.


Instead of loudly claiming your knowledge and skill when your photos would appear to show the opposite why not  try some experiments for yourself. Pizzamaking (and breadmaking) has a far steeper learning curve than I would have imagined. And only now I am I beginning to learn what I don't know. You might consider that. If the very best pizza makers on this board  (Craig, MItch)  are telling you that you're not on track, attacking their ideas and expertise is counterproductive, not to mention not  in keeping with the spirit of the board.


Get some flour, maybe even try a fresh starterand try it their way. ( It works really, really well..I use it and it's great..and I'm not researcher or scientist, just a guy from NJ who likes to make pizza)   If you hate it, then you know., Stick with your 20-40% starter and enjoy your pizza.. Meanwhile, take it from the pros here. They know their stuff.  Please, show them some respect. 

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2018, 02:27:06 PM »

- Is there a recommended or "best" amount of starter to use for sourdough pizza?

  A. "Honestly, it just depends."

 She further indicated that one could start in a range of 20% to 40%.  The range was what I was able to calculate base on a "cups of flour" descriptions she gave me.  She further indicated that one could use one of their sourdough bread recipes and use it for pizza. 



So I prefer to use 20% others might use more or less. Doesn't seem to be a conflict here




- They are not "about" long rises - be it CF or RT.  Their recipes and focus are on same day doughs or doughs that are retarded overnight (just one).

- Context matters.  20%-40% is fine under certain conditions.  Not so much, other conditions and/or differing styles.  It is not a "best" or "right" answer.  As Maggie said at the onset "It depends."  There are a lot of variable to manage and without context, any of us can end up missing an issue, or dispensing/receiving well intended but not great advice.


Yes context matters and there are no "right" or "wrong" answers here. My answer is 20% levain with a multi-day cf and 2-3 rt for someone who asks. Others answers might be different.
For a same day dough I might recommend 20% levain with a 4-6 hour rt.

I dont think that micro-percentages with 12 hour rt ferments are a good answer for someone who would be asking the question.

Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2018, 02:48:14 PM »
....
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 03:32:59 PM by yarbrough462 »

HarryHaller73

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2018, 02:48:18 PM »
Can anyone tell me what % of starter effect has on final product?
What is the difference between a pizza with 20% of starter vs 5% of starter? Making all else the same
J

Makes the product more sour.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2018, 02:59:28 PM »

I am a baker and a pizza maker. I always treat the two as distinct because they are and yet my work with one does benefit my work with the other. But I don’t ever just think they are the same


Right, I would agree and I share this. However I often see "pizza is not bread" posted  and I would disagree. Pizza dough is flour, water and a culture (for the most part). Same for bread. However some of their objectives are clearly different.



Again, this is where I would ask you to cite references from YOUR OWN internet searches. ...

I have.


Regarding disadvantages for 20%, there truly are many potential disadvantages (especially when doing longer fermentation -either RT or CF):

Gluten degradation (tacky dough, tearing, poor oven spring, etc), poor crust coloration, dense crumb structure, and even the tang (depending on taste preference could be listed as a disadvantage), etc.

There are equally as many if not more for a glob of 1-5% starter dough sitting on the counter for 12+ hours. I would consider this "under inoculated". We are doing an "artificial induction of immunity against various infectious diseases" with the known culture. Too little leaves a great opportunity for unknown cultures to grow producing unwanted and unreproducible results

My experience has been 20% levain as a constant provides a good point to be successful.



I would hardly consider doing a 20% leavening as you suggest without serious consideration of time and temperature. 20% at 80° and 60° will yield vastly different windows of usability and flavor profiles and disadvantages. And just saying “use CF” doesn’t eliminate the other variables.

Blanket statements don’t honestly help anyone, and are not beneficial to the members here. Everyone’s situation and goals are different. Therefore we try and understand what people are going for and based on the VAST wealth of experience here, someone will be able to help them achieve their individual goals. 20%, 7 day CF will no get me what I am going for in pizza.


I typically give a time and well as the percentage of levain when I answer the question so this really isn't an issue for me

With my homegrown levain 20% @ 7 days cf provides me with a dough that has plenty of activity left to rise during the rt time and a great tasting pizza that both my wife and others enjoy.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:06:08 PM by Dangerous Salumi »
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2018, 03:00:43 PM »
DS,

The 1-5% figure for the natural starter has its origins back to 2005 when member pizzanapoletana (Marco Parente) introduced the Crisceto method to the members in Reply 10 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=861.msg8679#msg8679. Not long thereafter, I played around with his recommended 1-5% natural starter in a home room temperature environment even though I knew very little about what I was doing or what to expect. A typical example is the one at Reply 44 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=986.msg9367#msg9367.

Marco early on drew a distinction between bread dough and pizza dough, as noted in his post cited above. Over the years, he would repeat that statement several times.

More than once, I have suggested that members read all of Marco's posts, as I have done on more than one occasion. Doing that is like getting a degree in Neapolitan pizza making.

Marco went on to introduce his sourdough methods, as a consultant, to Franco Manca (http://www.francomanca.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/FrancoMancaMenu.pdf), in the UK. There are now about 42 stores in the Franco Manca chain. Franco Manca is considered one of the best pizzerias in London. And Marco has been credited with his contribution to the dough recipe used by Franco Manca: http://www.guildford-dragon.com/2016/05/22/shop-front-eat-one-pizza-year-make-sure-franco-manca/.

For the record, I have also played around with using a lot more natural starter in the context of cold fermentation. An example is discussed at Reply 151 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774. As noted at the end of that post, I felt that a room temperature fermented dough produced a more flavorful crust. That was just my personal opinion.

Peter

Thanks Pete. When I get some time I read these.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2018, 03:07:58 PM »
Makes the product more sour.

Maybe – or maybe not. It could even be less sour. There isn’t enough information to say one way or the other. For one thing, the premise of the OP’s original question “making all else the same” is an unworkable assumption because either time or temperature must change.
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Offline yarbrough462

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2018, 03:09:21 PM »
....
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 03:33:18 PM by yarbrough462 »

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2018, 03:22:03 PM »
I believe that this is at least the fifth time you’ve implicitly or explicitly condemned the models, and you’ve yet to give even one specific reason why.

I have not "condemned" them. I do believe the information is not being used appropriately. I have given specific reasons several times.


Again, do you bother to read before you go shooting off your mouth?

This is yet again another example of a post that I feel is rude and inappropriate.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #29 on: January 16, 2018, 03:29:42 PM »
I have not "condemned" them. I do believe the information is not being used appropriately. I have given specific reasons several times.

Link please.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2018, 03:37:28 PM »
There are equally as many if n to more for a glob of 1-5% starter dough sitting on the counter for 12+ hours. I would consider this "under inoculated". Where we are doing an "artificial induction of immunity against various infectious diseases" with the known culture. Too little leaves a great opportunity for unknown cultures to grow producing unwanted and unreproducible results

Based on what? Exactly what experience or specific knowledge do you have that leads you to this conclusion?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2018, 04:02:31 PM »

I'm not an expert baker or  pizza maker, but I've baked a lot of pizza and a lot of bread. And I can tell you that you're posting information that itself may very well be a disservice to newer members.

I disagree


And by the way, you are one of those.


You don't know me and you don't know how much experience I have


You might consider that. If the very best pizza makers on this board  (Craig, MItch)  are telling you that you're not on track, attacking their ideas and expertise is counterproductive, not to mention not  in keeping with the spirit of the board.


I'd rather prove it to myself by doing it myself and learning it myself. Ive never been much of a follower.
 



You might consider that. If the very best pizza makers on this board  (Craig, MItch)  are telling you that you're not on track, attacking their ideas and expertise is counterproductive, not to mention not  in keeping with the spirit of the board.

Sharing opinions, and challenging opinions what a forum is about. Its hardly counterproductive. Attacking people with different opinions is.
FTIW I figured out the problems with my earlier pies by myself. It had nothing to do with "bad starter" or "bake times" and the pies certainly didn't have a "gum line". As I posted The Experts help was appreciated it just wasn't the issues they thought it was.
 




Please, show them some respect.

If someone thinks that disagreeing with them is not being respectful then that's their problem. As I posted to another forum member I don't work here. Pizza making is my hobby. 
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

HarryHaller73

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2018, 04:30:25 PM »
Maybe – or maybe not. It could even be less sour. There isn’t enough information to say one way or the other. For one thing, the premise of the OP’s original question “making all else the same” is an unworkable assumption because either time or temperature must change.

I don't claim to be a scientist but West Coast (use more preferments/starters), East Coast (None, unless claiming to be) and where sourdough came to be in basic expectations of what a certain thing tastes like.

I was in LA last year ate bagels, there is noticable "sourdough" flavors.. most likely preferments/starters, and/or longer fermentation.
Textures were also different.  NY Bagels can't be eaten by the toothless.  Bagels I had in LA can.


HarryHaller73

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2018, 04:32:14 PM »
More a longer fermented ingredient you use, the more sour.  Try Korean kimchi.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2018, 04:43:09 PM »
DS,

I have a wonderful book on bread making, called The Taste of Bread, by the late Professor Raymond Calvel (see the Pizza Glossary entry for Calvel at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html). The book is considered to be the "bible" on French breads and other related bread products. Unfortunately, the book new in hardcover form is very expensive. I think it sells new in hardcover for over $200, although lower cost used and paperback versions are often available. Prof. Calvel is also pretty much universally considered the father of the autolyse method (see the autolyse entry at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_a).

But, with that as background, what I want to talk about here is how bread dough is different than pizza dough even though both may make use of certain common principles. For example, the autolyse method is basically one used classically for bread dough, not pizza dough, although we have members who routinely use the autolyse method, or something similar, for their pizza dough. In my own case, after having experimented with the autolyse method on several occasions for different types of pizza doughs, I concluded that it was not something that I would want to use on a routine basis although I did find it most useful for pizza doughs that were based on natural leavens. But I would never criticize anyone who uses the autolyse method for their pizza dough. They should do that which pleases them and their palate.

But what impressed me a lot in Prof. Calvel's book is a chart that appears at page 46 and called Schematic Comparison of Baking Methods. I was hoping to find a copy of the chart somewhere through a Google search but was not able to locate such a copy. So, I am going to try to use words to discuss the contents of the chart. Basically, the chart provides the times to make breads using the different methods. Some of the breads are based on straight dough methods with commercial yeast but others are based on using preferments like poolish or sponge, prefermented doughs, and natural leavens. Each method includes two risings of the dough, the initial rising (a bulk fermentation) and a final rising (proofing) just prior to baking. As one might expect, all of the dough methods require mixing and kneading and dividing, weighing and forming. The forming is in the shape of breads, not a flat form that is inherent in pizza doughs.

Here are the total preparation times for the various methods:

Conventional Straight Dough: 6 hours
Improved Straight Dough: 4 hours, 30 minutes
Straight Dough with Intensive Mixing (which Prof. Calvel does not recommend): 4 hours, 45 minutes
Poolish Method: 4 hours, 45 minutes (the poolish part of the process is 4 hours)
Prefermented Dough: 4 hours, 45 minutes (the prefermented dough part of the process is 3 hours, 30 minutes)
"Levain de Pate" (based on an inoculation or seeding of the dough with a natural leavening culture or levain): 5 hours, 15 minutes (the Levain de Pate part of the process is 4 hours, 30 minutes)
Natural Sourdough Preferment: 8 hours, 45 minutes (the sourdough preferment part of the process is 5 hours, 30 minutes)

The salient point of the above is to show how bread making in the classic sense does not transpire over a course of days. But in those cases that use preferments or prefermented dough or natural leavens, the amounts of these items are fairly high. There are quite a few bread recipes in the book to look at but as best as I can tell from looking at several of the recipes I would say that the amounts of those ingredients are in the range of around 25-30% of the flour weight for prefermented dough and natural sourdough cultures and even higher for a poolish--about 50% of the flour weight. But it is important to note that these are all at room temperature. I do not recall reading anything in the book about cold fermentation although I'm sure that others have attempted cold fermentation in some fashion for bread dough. And there is only one recipe in the book for pizza. That is for a pizzaladiere, which is a classic French dish.

To the above, I would add that Tom Lehmann, who holds the record of tenure at the American Institute of Baking, at about 50 years, and who is perhaps the most well known expert in the field of pizza making as well as bread making, routinely draws a distinction between pizza dough making and bread dough making. Yes, there are things in common, but they are perhaps outweighed by the differences.

Peter


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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2018, 04:45:08 PM »
More a longer fermented ingredient you use, the more sour.  Try Korean kimchi.

Maybe, maybe not. It depends.
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2018, 04:51:26 PM »
DS,

I have a wonderful book on bread making, called The Taste of Bread, by the late Professor Raymond Calvel (see the Pizza Glossary entry at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html). The book is considered to be the "bible" on French breads and other related bread products. Unfortunately, the book new in hardcover form is very expensive. I think it sells new in hardcover for over $200, although lower cost used and paperback versions are often available. Prof. Calvel is also pretty much universally considered the father of the autolyse method (see the autolyse entry at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_a).

But, with that as background, what I want to talk about here is how bread dough is different than pizza dough even though both may make use of certain common principles. For example, the autolyse method is basically one used classically for bread dough, not pizza dough, although we have members who routinely use the autolyse method, or something similar, for their pizza dough. In my own case, after having experimented with the autolyse method on several occasions for different types of pizza doughs, I concluded that it was not something that I would want to use on a routine basis although I did find it most useful for pizza doughs that were based on natural leavens. But I would never criticize anyone who uses the autolyse method for their pizza dough. They should do that which pleases them and their palate.

But what impressed me a lot in Prof. Calvel's book is a chart that appears at page 46 and called Schematic Comparison of Baking Methods. I was hoping to find a copy of the chart somewhere through a Google search but was not able to locate such a copy. So, I am going to try to use words to discuss the contents of the chart. Basically, the chart provides the times to make breads using the different methods. Some of the breads are based on straight dough methods with commercial yeast but others are based on using preferments like poolish or sponge, prefermented doughs, and natural leavens. Each method includes two risings of the dough, the initial rising (a bulk fermentation) and a final rising (proofing) just prior to baking. As one might expect, all of the dough methods require mixing and kneading and dividing, weighing and forming. The forming is in the shape of breads, not a flat form that is inherent in pizza doughs.

Here are the total preparation times for the various methods:

Conventional Straight Dough: 6 hours
Improved Straight Dough: 4 hours, 30 minutes
Straight Dough with Intensive Mixing (which Prof. Calvel does not recommend): 4 hours, 45 minutes
Poolish Method: 4 hours, 45 minutes (the poolish part of the process is 4 hours)
Prefermented Dough: 4 hours, 45 minutes (the prefermented dough part of the process is 3 hours, 30 minutes)
"Levain de Pate" (based on an inoculation or seeding of the dough with a natural leavening culture or levain): 5 hours, 15 minutes (the Levain de Pate part of the process is 4 hours, 30 minutes)
Natural Sourdough Preferment: 8 hours, 45 minutes (the sourdough preferment part of the process is 5 hours, 30 minutes)

The salient point of the above is to show how bread making in the classic sense does not transpire over a course of days. But in those cases that use preferments or prefermented dough or natural leavens, the amounts of these items are fairly high. There are quite a few bread recipes in the book to look at but as best as I can tell from looking at several of the recipes I would say that the amounts of those ingredients are in the range of around 25-30% of the flour weight for prefermented dough and natural sourdough cultures and even higher for a poolish--about 50% of the flour weight. But it is important to note that these are all at room temperature. I do not recall reading anything in the book about cold fermentation although I'm sure that others have attempted cold fermentation in some fashion for bread dough. And there is only one recipe in the book for pizza. That is for a pizzaladiere, which is a classic French dish.

To the above, I would add that Tom Lehmann, who holds the record of tenure at the American Institute of Baking, at about 50 years, and who is perhaps the most well known expert in the field of pizza making as well as bread making, routinely draws a distinction between pizza dough making and bread dough making. Yes, there are things in common, but they are perhaps outweighed by the differences.

Peter

Good stuff Pete. Thanks.
I'm planning to do some Detroit Pizza (probably 2-3 hours rt ferment) and then some NY pizza (again probably 2-3 hour rt) both with 20% levain soon. Will post pics etc.

BTW I use a 20 minute autolyse prior to the kneed on my pizza doughs.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2018, 04:55:29 PM »
Link please.

And nothing. Big surprise...
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2018, 05:36:10 PM »
And nothing. Big surprise...

Some might see your multiple posts like this to me as harassment and/or stalking.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2018, 05:36:43 PM »
Some might see your multiple posts like this to me as harassment and/or stalking.

Some might see your hiding as admission of guilt.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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