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Offline Yael

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Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« on: February 07, 2018, 08:27:05 AM »
Hi Tom and everyone,

Recently I've been wondering about the difference between the flours concerning the baking, I read interesting information on a Pete-zza post : https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg375884#msg375884 (1st paragraph of this post), but I'd like to know more.
I made a research but couldn't find anything relevant.
What could you add ? Or is there another thread about it in the forum ?
Thanks in advance.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline the1mu

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2018, 08:32:08 AM »
Are you asking in general or are you trying to find out some stuff for China flours?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2018, 08:51:37 AM »
There is no direct comparison to be made. '00' is a specification as to how fine the flour is milled. '00' flours span the entire protein range from very low (pastry flours) to very high. They can be very weak or very strong or somewhere in the middle, but the fineness of milling will be the same. On the other hand, "bread flour" really doesn't mean anything at all. It's a name millers typically give (retail) flour to market to consumers. There isn't a standard of identity for bread flour, and it can mean pretty much anything (so long as it meets the standard of identity for "flour"). In general, "bread flour" is slightly higher protein than a miller's AP offering and is generally malted (added malted barley or [fungal/bacterial] amylase enzyme). It's entirely possible that one miller's AP flour has higher protein than another miller's bread flour.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2018, 10:32:10 AM »
Pete covered the differences in pretty good detail in the referenced response. What are your specific questions?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline _pizzajourney

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2018, 05:05:41 PM »
Hi Tom. How does mixing in spelt and durum effect the speed and strength of fermentation?

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2018, 08:52:53 PM »
They don't. The basic steering mechanisms for fermentation are the amounts of salt and sugar, dough pH, temperature plays a huge part, and dough absorption plays a lesser part.
The addition of non-wheat flours (what are commonly referred to as "composite" flours) will impact how much fermentation a dough should receive or how much it will tolerate but it will not impact the speed or strength of fermentation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Yael

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2018, 04:09:22 AM »
Thank you all for your replies.

First, @Craig : as you say, 00 flour is not about the protein range but the ashes range, 00 is around 0.45%, which can be whether low or high protein. In France, we also define the flour from its ashes range : T (for type)45, T55, T65, T80 and more. We commonly call T45 "cake flour" (it's the equivalent of the Italian 00), T55 "baguette flour" (the equivalent of the Italian 0) and T65 "bread flour" (T80 and more : "whole wheat bread flour", Italian flour 1, 2 and Integrale). BTW, I think it's more accurate to call them so accordingly to protein rate instead of ashes rate as the protein rate will inform us on how to ferment it correctly in order to be more digestible...
[...]It's entirely possible that one miller's AP flour has higher protein than another miller's bread flour.
This is interesting. Does it often happen ?

Then, I was thinking about this thread today, and I thought about more specific questions, which actually concern the TWO first paragraphs on Pete's thread:
- Why the sugar from the less damaged starch would have a lesser coloration on lower temperature ? Does it simply mean less sugar ? Would it also mean the fermentation time should be longer as there is less sugar to feed the yeast ?
- Is the damaged starch linked with the smaller/bigger particle size ?
- Can brown sugar be used as coloring agent, in the case we can't find malt ?
- How can we have information about the particle size, if relevant to know such a characteristic ?

@the1mu : I want to know in general, for my general knowledge  :)

I just tried a new oven today, with a Chinese-Italian flour (made in China with Italian craft), usually baked in deck oven and it's quite white or clear color: today baked in a new and cheap conveyor oven (but not convection), between 4 and 5 minutes at around 360°C, and the crust was well colored.

Thanks !
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2018, 11:33:53 AM »
The ash content of a flour is only an indication of its extraction rate during the milling process. Extraction rate in basic terms is the pounds/Kg of flour extracted from 100-pounds/Kg of wheat. Ash content influences the color of the flour with lower ash content giving a brighter, whiter flour and high ash content giving a darker, more gray colored flour. Over the past 50-years we have seen the ash content of U.S. flours increase from an average of around 0.450 to 0.52 and above for bread type flours. The lower ash flours can still be found but they are considered as "specialty" flours and command a premium price. Ash is purely an economic thing, a tool used by the flour miller to help control flour prices. This move to higher ash flours has also been embraced by consumers as they are no longer demanding that their white bread have a bright white crumb color, but instead they show a preference for a more "natural" slightly darker crumb color. This is further supported by the consumer shift towards non-bleached flour which has a slightly yellow/creamy color to it, further darkening the crumb color. We generally attribute this shift to the consumer move to more "natural" foods. I cannot see where ash content would have any impact upon the amount of fermentation that a flour might require, in fact it tells you almost nothing about the flour or how to handle it, but you are quite correct that referring to the flours by protein content would be a much better way to look at flours with regard to such things as dough absorption, mixing time and dough fermentation time. When we have less damaged starch present in the flour the flour typically exhibits a lower water absorption and the converse is also true. Italian "00" flour is un-malted so there is little amylase activity in the flour. It is the amylase enzyme (present in diastatic malt, malted/sprouted barley, or in a more pure preparation such as in amylase tablets or powder) which hydrolizes the damaged starch into sugars to both support fermentation and provide crust color. Since "00" flour has low damaged starch and little to no amylase the only way for the crust to brown is through browning of the protein which requires a very high oven temperature to accomplish. This can be overcome by adding a source of amylase or sugar to the dough. With regard to the type of sugar added to the dough any simple sugar (dextrose, honey, molasses, malt syrup) or reducing sugar (sucrose, or brown sugar) can be used with a "00" flour to support fermentation and enhance crust color development. With regard to particle size, this can be be regulated by the milling process and the grist (types of wheat being milled to make the flour). With hard red what varieties it is common that when flour is milled to a smaller/finer particle size there is more damaged starch present. This is a very common practice in Mexico where very short fermentation times are the norm rather than the exception and millers actually run the milled flour through their Entilators (a hammer mill like device that the flour is processed through to help destroy any insect eggs left in the flour after the milling process) which further damages the starch which results in flour with very high absorption properties but little tolerance to fermentation as the damaged starch (which is holding all that extra water) is the first to be hydrolized into sugar by the small amount of naturally occurring amylase enzyme in the yeast resulting in a total release of all that additional water giving a dough which, in many cases, can almost be poured out of the mixing bowl. When softer wheat varieties are milled it is possible to mill the flour to a smaller particle size without use of multiple passes through the Entilator which results in a smaller particle size flour without the associated starch damage associated with the milling of hard wheat flours. This is how we mill the soft wheats used in making cake and pastry flours here in the U.S.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2018, 12:24:35 PM »
This is interesting. Does it often happen ?
I don't know how often it happens, but that's not my point. The point is that there is no such thing as "bread flour." The only word in that name that has a defined meaning is "flour." The word "bread" is just a marketing word that millers add to the name to help customers distinguish between products.

Quote
- Can brown sugar be used as coloring agent, in the case we can't find malt ?
Keep in mind that the point of diastatic malt is not to directly color the dough but rather to convert starch to sugar which creates color through the Maillard reaction when heated.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Yael

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2018, 10:48:35 PM »
@Tom Lehmann : thanks a lot for your full reply, I really learned a lot.
A couple of years ago I visited a mill in France, and indeed they told us that the ashes rate was just a commercial thing, the differences in the final result being very small (if not meaningless).

The problem now is that I have other questions  :angel: : if the alpha-amylase can not provide sugar from the undamaged starch to feed the yeast so it can metabolize it into alcohol and carbon dioxide, shouldn't the fermentation be affected, say longer ? Or does the alpha-amylase go on breaking down the starch during kneading and fermentation process ? Or are there other sources of sugar in the flour ?

@Craig : thank you for the details. I learned before that the malt was a coloring agent, didn't learn that there was the alpha-amylase characteristics.
I understood what you mean about the "bread" flour. Actually, we could possibly call "bread flour" a mix with specific ingredients for a specific bread - but should be called "bread mix" and not flour then.

Thank you all very much.
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Offline _pizzajourney

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2018, 11:21:51 AM »
The addition of non-wheat flours (what are commonly referred to as "composite" flours) will impact how much fermentation a dough should receive or how much it will tolerate but it will not impact the speed or strength of fermentation.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Hi Tom, thank you for the fast reply. So just to be clear the composite flours affect how much fermentation the dough can take. What is the range here? What composite flours are good for this and how would you organize them from least to most effective?
Thanks!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2018, 10:46:07 PM »
Yael / Pizzajourney;
But the alpha amylase DOES hydrolize starch into sugars to support fermentation...and to help develop crust color. The alpha amylase will continue to hydrolize starch in the flour until it is destroyed/denatured in the baking process or whenever the temperature of the dough reaches 160F. There are no other real sources of sugar in the flour.

Composite flour is any flour that is made from a blend of different grains milled into a flour like consistency. We run into composite flours all the time in developing countries where wheat is not generally grown and if it is it is not grown in any significant quantity but other grains and legumes are available. In this case the flour is used only as a binder to hold things together while the bulk of the "flour" is made up of the other grains and legumes. The closest thing we might have to a composite flour here in the U.S. is a multi-grain flour blend where 30 to 40% of the total flour weight is comprised of non-wheat grains and seeds. Look at it like this....in the case of a multi-grain flour blend the "other" grains and seeds do not provide any gluten so the amount of gluten present in the flour is reduced by the percent of non-gluten forming material in the flour blend, add to that the fact that the gluten film that is formed tries to envelop the other grains and seeds thus over extending what gluten there is which weakens the gluten film and to add insult to injury, many times these "other" materials will exert a cutting effect upon the gluten film as as the film is expended (dough increases in volume) the other materials cut into the gluten film weakening it even more. It there any wonder why composite flours exhibit a very short fermentation tolerance? Those "other" materials don't affect the rate of fermentation but they do raise havoc on the substrate (gluten film) that contains the leavening gas in the dough.
Back in the late 70's I was charged with developing a method to improve the dough quality with composite flours WITHOUT the use of additives or anything that would increase the cost of the dough. I was able to develop a method for making the dough where we found the absorption of the non-wheat materials (this is the same way we find the absorption of multi-grain blend and whole-wheat flour/discussed many this here) and then we made a dough using ONLY the wheat flour but with ALL of the calculated water for the dough. Sometimes this resulted in more of a batter than a dough so we used a flat beater aka paddle to mix the dough at this point. The "dough" was mixed until we had achieves good gluten film development for the flour being used, the non-wheat material was then added to the dough, the flat beater was swapped out for the dough arm, and the dough was mixed JUST until the material was blended into the dough, it was then allowed to ferment for 60-minutes (actually more for hydrating the "other" materials than to achieve fermentation which would further weaken the dough, at that point the dough was ready for use. This method for making composite flour doughs was so successful that I authored an AIB Technical Bulletin on the topic and then spent considerable time traveling in the middle east demonstrating the process. Is the process still in use today? I don't know as I have no burning desire to return to Syria, Afghanistan, Iran, or Yemen to find out.
In case you're wondering why I didn't just hydrate the non-wheat materials as a soaker like we do when making multi-grain doughs, we found that this process only worked when we had white flour of decent gluten forming properties...a quality few, if any, of the wheat flours in those countries had. At one point I was traveling for U.S. Wheat Associates and spent considerable time demonstrating how the use of U.S. wheat flour would improve the overall quality of their products made from these composite flours...the idea here being to show one big advantage to using U.S. flour provided many times under the government aid (federal assistance) program.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2018, 08:28:04 AM »
Great thread, and to the experts... what would be the US blend to match T55 "baguette flour"?
All the best, Dave

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2018, 09:10:20 AM »
What Craig says about standards for flours is correct. However, some millers try to guide users by using protein content and gluten formation to put their flours into a graduated scheme from high to low. For example, see the General Mills document at http://www.generalmillscf.com/~/media/Files/Industry-Resources/Pizzeria/exploring-products/flour-portfolio.ashx. Millers will also use terms like "medium high gluten" and "premium high gluten" for differentiation purposes, as I noted in Reply 12 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1881.msg28897;topicseen#msg28897.

For those who are interested in more detail about flours, I aggregated several items on flour at the top part of the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2018, 11:37:19 AM »
Big Moose;
Just to give you an idea of why ash content is all but meaningless, assuming T55 = a flour with a 0.55% ash content the General Mills Hi Power and Remarkable both come in at about 0.54% ash content but the protein content is around 13.6% and more. then there is the T80 = 0.80% ash content which would be equivalent to the General Mills Iron Duke flour with 0.80% ash content. This is a clear grade flour like you might use when making rye bread but it is not a whole wheat flour by a long shot. For comparison, General Mills Wondra flour has an ash content of 0.56% but only 10.5% protein content.
If you're looking to replicate the "T" values it really isn't necessary to blend flours at all.
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Offline vtsteve

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2018, 12:52:11 PM »
European flour vendors use a 0% moisture basis for analysis (dehydrated/dry matter only), while American suppliers use a 14% moisture basis (typical storage), so the numbers can't be directly compared...
In grams we trust.
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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2018, 01:21:23 PM »
European flour vendors use a 0% moisture basis for analysis (dehydrated/dry matter only), while American suppliers use a 14% moisture basis (typical storage), so the numbers can't be directly compared...
Steve,

That is a good point, and one that is discussed in this King Arthur document that I retrieved from the Wayback Machine archives:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060208023504/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/15ec5c94af1251cdac2d7a25848f0e27/miscdocs/Flour%20Guide.pdf

I am not sure which method Caputo uses for the flours that it sells in the U.S.

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2018, 02:12:47 PM »
I am not sure which method Caputo uses for the flours that it sells in the U.S.

Looks like they use 14%
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2018, 04:32:54 PM »
Looks like they use 14%
Craig,

Thank you.

One of the reasons I asked the question is that back in 2006 I did not see the humidity number:

Reply 17 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2951.msg25328#msg25328.

Also, I wasn't sure about the stated protein values. To cite a more recent example, the Caputo 00-Americana flour has a protein value of 14.25% +/- 0.50%, which seems high to me:

http://caputoflour.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/00-Americana-Flour-SPECS.pdf

Peter

Offline Yael

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Re: Differences between 00 flour and bread flour
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2018, 08:12:54 AM »
Hello everyone,

@Tom Lehmann: it starts to be clear in my mind, let me summarize and please let me know if I got everything right : alpha-amylase is naturally present in the flour, its number can vary (= Falling Number). Alpha-amylase hydrolyzes (breaks down) the starch to sugar, and with the information on the thread I would guess that the action of the enzyme is more effective when the starch is ALREADY damaged (during the milling process). Is it correct so far ?

@vtsteve : do you mean that the analysis of the ashes range is made with flours that have 0% humidity in Europe and 14% in the US ? I'll check this.

@Pete-zza : it's amazing how you can find any link among the thousands and thousands threads in the forum !!!  :-D
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