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Author Topic: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr  (Read 74795 times)

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1420 on: December 07, 2019, 08:34:31 PM »
I'd be interested to see a pic of the dough as it comes off your mixer at 20 minutes. I'm using a preset cycle on my bread machine and I actually dont know what happens after 13 minutes. (Theres a good chance I could borrow a Kitchenaid if needed.)
Matt

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1421 on: December 07, 2019, 08:40:45 PM »
I'd be interested to see a pic of the dough as it comes off your mixer at 20 minutes. I'm using a preset cycle on my bread machine and I actually dont know what happens after 13 minutes. (Theres a good chance I could borrow a Kitchenaid if needed.)


I have a full write-up of it starting at post 180


The picture is not right out the mixer it was already balled, very smooth.


This last test I did shows you really do not need a mixer in my opinion I achieved amazing results with a Danish dough whisk and adding the slow addition of flour to make sure it was hydrated before adding more I had pretty amazing dough, what's it was pretty stiff you can squeeze it with your hands and make sure it's really mixed throughout then kind of do little dimple punches on it and it seems to work real effective if you have longer time stretching fold does a wonderful job also


I have a few different tests I've done you can read on I always do test every week just to keep it fun
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55083.msg602703#new
Josh

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1422 on: December 08, 2019, 07:10:56 AM »
Thanks Josh. I forgot to mention that I remembered your windowpane comments the last 2 times I was making dough, and I tried to stretch the extra dough I had leftover. I couldn't get to a windowpane.

Separately, I noticed that GumbaWill seems to have a longer mix as well, at 17 minutes. I posted a question on his thread to get his thoughts.

Matt

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1423 on: December 08, 2019, 12:08:53 PM »
Thanks Josh. I forgot to mention that I remembered your windowpane comments the last 2 times I was making dough, and I tried to stretch the extra dough I had leftover. I couldn't get to a windowpane.

Separately, I noticed that GumbaWill seems to have a longer mix as well, at 17 minutes. I posted a question on his thread to get his thoughts.


I can say professional shops with professional mixers mix for a fair amount of time, we all know our basic home mixers are not nearly as effective as mixing has a commercial setting but we're still trying to match it with the same time of mixing, I could never understand this? Got me thinking and wanting me to experiment.


If we start out good then we should end good that's my thought. I know I start out with webbing and I end with webbing when I start out with window pane i end with window pane. Unfortunately I haven't done enough test and this might not be the solution or answer to our problem.




A lot of times to get window pane you got to add some rest periods and possibly some stretching folds. That's just something that will have to come with the experiment and the setting and ingredients.


there is a few other members that do the more developed mixing, I believe Scott R also does
Josh

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1424 on: December 08, 2019, 12:12:55 PM »
I watched a video here where the gentleman was mixing flour in a large mixer.  He was adding flour a bit at a time.   Pizza Shark here says to add flour in small amounts every minute or so.   I have adopted this method.  While I use IDY I culture it in Warm water with the total sugar addition for 10 minutes.  When the culture is foaming I add 1/3 the Flour and premixed in Salt and Malt.  I mix that for 10 minutes.  I then begin to add half cups of the Flour mix every minute after I scrape the flour that is not mixed in already.  I add the next 1/2 cup only after the flour has been incorporated. I do this until all the flour is mixed then I mix for 10 -12 minutes after that.  So from beginning to end it takes about 30 minutes.   I have no issues with holes or thick or thin spots when opening after 24 -72 hours. And opening is easy peazy.

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Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1425 on: December 08, 2019, 12:37:02 PM »
I watched a video here where the gentleman was mixing flour in a large mixer.  He was adding flour a bit at a time.   Pizza Shark here says to add flour in small amounts every minute or so.   I have adopted this method.  While I use IDY I culture it in Warm water with the total sugar addition for 10 minutes.  When the culture is foaming I add 1/3 the Flour and premixed in Salt and Malt.  I mix that for 10 minutes.  I then begin to add half cups of the Flour mix every minute after I scrape the flour that is not mixed in already.  I add the next 1/2 cup only after the flour has been incorporated. I do this until all the flour is mixed then I mix for 10 -12 minutes after that.  So from beginning to end it takes about 30 minutes.   I have no issues with holes or thick or thin spots when opening after 24 -72 hours. And opening is easy peazy.


I agree I have been adopting the slower adition of flour
And only adding it when everything is fully hydrated then I will add more I use much smaller additions then a half a cup though around a tablespoon or two at a time, it has worked out pretty amazing for me so far the sifted flour was also huge I adopted both of these methods from Peter in his thread https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0


There was also another older thread about longer mixing times and there were some experiments done that was pretty interesting although I don't believe that they tore thick spots where ever brought up as it was not the focus of the topic
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 12:39:35 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1426 on: December 08, 2019, 04:57:02 PM »

I agree I have been adopting the slower adition of flour
And only adding it when everything is fully hydrated then I will add more I use much smaller additions then a half a cup though around a tablespoon or two at a time, it has worked out pretty amazing for me so far the sifted flour was also huge I adopted both of these methods from Peter in his thread https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0
My typical batch is a tad over 1000 gr of flour.  I think waiting for all the flour to be hydrated before adding more is the trick!

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1427 on: December 08, 2019, 06:26:30 PM »
I tried an extra-mixed dough today, didnt work. It certainly could've been error on my part though.

What I did was:
- Mix 16 minutes. It didnt seem like anything more was happening, so I stopped.

- Rest 10 minutes

- Mix another 4 minutes. When it first went into the mixer it stretched, kind of like taffy. Then it quickly firmed up. After mixing it wasnt stretchy - it had webs and teared. I tried to hand-knead, but was no use.

- Rest 10 minutes. It stretched pretty ok, not quite windowpane.

- Rest another 10 minutes. No better. And anything I did to the dough made it less stretchy.

I plan to bake it as a bread after tonight's pizza.

I'm interested in what you guys are saying about adding water. I may create a separate post with how I add my ingredients.

Matt

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1428 on: December 08, 2019, 06:50:21 PM »
I tried an extra-mixed dough today, didnt work. It certainly could've been error on my part though.

What I did was:
- Mix 16 minutes. It didnt seem like anything more was happening, so I stopped.

- Rest 10 minutes

- Mix another 4 minutes. When it first went into the mixer it stretched, kind of like taffy. Then it quickly firmed up. After mixing it wasnt stretchy - it had webs and teared. I tried to hand-knead, but was no use.

- Rest 10 minutes. It stretched pretty ok, not quite windowpane.

- Rest another 10 minutes. No better. And anything I did to the dough made it less stretchy.

I plan to bake it as a bread after tonight's pizza.

I'm interested in what you guys are saying about adding water. I may create a separate post with how I add my ingredients.


It's hard to say about your mixing problem without being there but it sounds like you're not giving enough rest between mixing and the gluten hasn't relaxed yet I would say a good rule of thumb is 20 to 40 minutes.


As far as adding the water Peter does a pretty good job on the post I made with the link to his thread but basically you have all the water added then you just slowly add the flour until there is no dry particles then you mix again after adding a little bit more they were there's no dry flower you add a little bit more and mix until you get a dough that you feel happy with.


It's just basically making sure all the flower is hydrated
I will also note that when you do it this way you're developing the gluten a lot more because you're mixing a lot with each addition of the flower so it really develops the dough
« Last Edit: December 08, 2019, 06:53:28 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1429 on: December 08, 2019, 08:41:07 PM »
Well I just baked a crust that was almost exactly what I was looking for. I'm tempering my enthusiasm a bit because this was an atypical bake with no sauce, but it was a huge step forward in any event.

After using All Trumps for the last year and half or so, I wanted to try King Arthur again. But last week I majorly over-fermented it. This time, I had almost the same formula, just less IDY and only a 1-day CF. 100% KASL, 63% water, 3% oil, 2% sugar, 1% LDM, 1.85% salt, 0.25% IDY.

Mixed about 13 minutes, rested 10 minutes, then 393 gram ball into the fridge.

Took it out of the fridge 45 minutes before stretching.

It stretched very nicely. It let me do the work, but didnt fight me. Very few little bubbles. Maybe 2 small thin spots, but I'd be nitpicking to complain about them. It looked and felt really nice.

The bake was 8:30, with the first 7:50 on the mesh screen. Usual set up with a pre-heat of 1.5 hours at 480 degrees, then turn the oven up to 535 after launch.

The resulting crust was really what I was after. Consistent in thickness, consistent in being properly baked. Soft and bendy, but firm enough not to flop (all they way to the final slice).

The unusual part though is that this was a white pie. I was looking for a change this week, and was thinking of doing a pan pizza, but was hesitant because I wanted to continue my NY dough experiments. Then my wife suggested I make her favorite, NY white, and reminded me that should bought some fancy ricotta from the pizzeria distributor.

The pizza was, in order: crust, EVOO, garlic powder, mozz (9.25 oz), ricotta, oregano, salt (a bit less than 1/4 tsp). It was really good, next time a bit less garlic, more mozz and maybe more oil.

Next bake will do the same crust. I'd consider spreading some oil on the dough skin to avoid sauce/skin issues. And try to top faster. It'd be awesome if I could get this crust on a red sauce pie.

Pre-bake pics below, pizza pics in following post.


Matt

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1430 on: December 08, 2019, 08:41:28 PM »
Pizza pics
Matt

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1431 on: December 08, 2019, 10:51:12 PM »
Right on Matt! Fist that pie is absolutely beautiful and one of the better white pies I've seen..




What was your take away for the better skin? Any longer mixing compared to the others?


Less fermentation hours?
Less idy?
Flour change?


When I had my perfect skin I had two variables as I explained earlier longer mix time but also that one was a one-day dough compared to my 2-day witch is why I needed to do more test. Not sure if I see it really being less fermentation time and a stronger dough, both of our high-gluten dough should handle 48 hours no problem, I was iffy about mine because I'm at a much warmer temperature but you shouldn't be a problem I would imagine and I would be lead in my mind that can't be the case, but very interested on your thoughts.




Obviously no matter what you still turn out amazing pizzas but I can also tell this is a plague like it is for me and it just personally bugs me and it's the one thing that really making it a disappointment for me. I am fully dedicated to figuring it out I just don't making up different batches to figure it out in a short amount of time. We seem to have both the same schedule every sunday's pizza night
Josh

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1432 on: December 09, 2019, 12:16:46 AM »
Very nice, Matt. Did you and your wife enjoy eating it? In your group of pre-bake pictures is there a difference between the 2nd and 3rd photos? What are you trying to show happened or changed from one to the next, I guess, is the question.
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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1433 on: December 10, 2019, 11:45:58 PM »
Man, I love the look of that white pie. That ricotta looks very high quality and delicious.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1434 on: December 11, 2019, 08:00:32 PM »
Very nice, Matt. Did you and your wife enjoy eating it? In your group of pre-bake pictures is there a difference between the 2nd and 3rd photos? What are you trying to show happened or changed from one to the next, I guess, is the question.

Thanks Tony. Yes, we did enjoy the pizza! It's worth pointing out that I enjoy pretty much all my pizzas, despite my posts here about looking for ways to make them better.

Regarding the difference between pics 2 and 3, the only difference was the camera setting. I've been finding that my white balance setting that I use for pizza tends to white-out the skin pic, making it difficult to see any thin spots. So I tried a pic in "auto" setting, which of course was much too dark, but I think shows a bit more detail.

Matt

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1435 on: December 11, 2019, 08:11:59 PM »
Right on Matt! Fist that pie is absolutely beautiful and one of the better white pies I've seen..

What was your take away for the better skin? Any longer mixing compared to the others?

Less fermentation hours?
Less idy?
Flour change?

When I had my perfect skin I had two variables as I explained earlier longer mix time but also that one was a one-day dough compared to my 2-day witch is why I needed to do more test. Not sure if I see it really being less fermentation time and a stronger dough, both of our high-gluten dough should handle 48 hours no problem, I was iffy about mine because I'm at a much warmer temperature but you shouldn't be a problem I would imagine and I would be lead in my mind that can't be the case, but very interested on your thoughts.

Obviously no matter what you still turn out amazing pizzas but I can also tell this is a plague like it is for me and it just personally bugs me and it's the one thing that really making it a disappointment for me. I am fully dedicated to figuring it out I just don't making up different batches to figure it out in a short amount of time. We seem to have both the same schedule every sunday's pizza night

Thanks Josh!

Two main guesses:
1) I used a more forgiving flour - in a post earlier Doug (WB###) talked a bit about the learning curve for switching to All Trumps, and he's a professional, not a homebaker making 1 pie a week. The King Arthur may just be easier to use.

2) It was a reasonably properly fermented King Arthur dough. The first I've ever done this way. When I used KA in the past, I was using a fridge that was very cold (~34F) and was getting underfermented dough, then it would sit at room temp for 2 hours. This was also my first time using LDM with KA (ignoring last week). I'm still new to LDM, but so far so good.

I also think (unscientifically) that through the years I've had better skin stretches using 1-day CF rather than 2-day. I don't have a lot of evidence to support that though, and it even if there is a correlation there, it still could have a different cause.

Mix time of 13 minutes is what I've been doing for probably a few months. But it's double what I was doing for a couple years.

I'm with you on this quest to solve it. One Sunday night at a time  :chef:

(I'm eager to see if I can replicate the dough feel this week, and if it stand up to all the watery sauce I'm going to put on it.)
Matt

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1436 on: December 11, 2019, 08:40:42 PM »
You mentioned when you used to do CF it'd be in the fridge at 34 degrees. Does that imply you do something different now?

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1437 on: December 11, 2019, 08:50:49 PM »
You mentioned when you used to do CF it'd be in the fridge at 34 degrees. Does that imply you do something different now?

Yeah. The 34 (or even 33F according to an post of mine), was in my basement fridge.

I switched over to my kitchen fridge, where the digital display says 36, but I suspect reaches 38.

Matt

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1438 on: December 11, 2019, 09:41:21 PM »
Thanks Josh!

Two main guesses:
1) I used a more forgiving flour - in a post earlier Doug (WB###) talked a bit about the learning curve for switching to All Trumps, and he's a professional, not a homebaker making 1 pie a week. The King Arthur may just be easier to use.

2) It was a reasonably properly fermented King Arthur dough. The first I've ever done this way. When I used KA in the past, I was using a fridge that was very cold (~34F) and was getting underfermented dough, then it would sit at room temp for 2 hours. This was also my first time using LDM with KA (ignoring last week). I'm still new to LDM, but so far so good.

I also think (unscientifically) that through the years I've had better skin stretches using 1-day CF rather than 2-day. I don't have a lot of evidence to support that though, and it even if there is a correlation there, it still could have a different cause.

Mix time of 13 minutes is what I've been doing for probably a few months. But it's double what I was doing for a couple years.

I'm with you on this quest to solve it. One Sunday night at a time  :chef:

(I'm eager to see if I can replicate the dough feel this week, and if it stand up to all the watery sauce I'm going to put on it.)


Great post! I am sure it's something to do with at least one or all of those. I've never used AT but Ka has always been a good one


I've been on a winning streak also, same flour but I've been messing around with a bunch of different formulas so hard to say with my situation, but this last big the dough was sure nice definitely makes life easy when you could just open the dough over your knuckles with no problem of thin spots, I could sure get used to that and a huge weight off of my shoulder, when using a turning peel in a high temperature oven sure makes it stressful worrying about poking a hole and having a cheese lava meltdown on your oven.




Look forward to your next week's bake hope everything goes for the best and you get the pizza you deserve for all your consistent work
Josh

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1439 on: December 12, 2019, 03:52:12 PM »
Matt, I was trying to find some info on alternative Blackstone stones. I saw where you had one at one point, not sure if you still do. Have you ever tried your NY pies in the Blackstone?

I hardly use mine anymore, and don't make much for NY pies either. But I'm debating if it's worth it to order a CA Pizza Stone to fit in the Blackstone for the purpose of 16" NY pies....

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