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Author Topic: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr  (Read 73250 times)

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Offline wb54885

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1500 on: January 23, 2020, 02:23:14 PM »
Hey Matt, bummer that you got a crummy can of tomatoes! But wanted to drop in and say congrats on your thin spots becoming less of a nuisance, and the most recent bakes look pretty fantastic. That dough ball is  :pizza: :chef:

Always a pleasure to see your pies and learn from your experiments. Also, I was recently rewatching Do the Right Thing, and I saw your undercrust coloring pattern in one of the scenes.
 
Cheers!
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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1501 on: January 23, 2020, 08:05:45 PM »
Thanks Doug! I appreciate all your help  :chef:  And nice movie slice.

I haven't had a chance to post last week's bake yet - I messed it up but it had it's charm. I accidentally cooked the half portion of tomato down to a paste. It didnt fully thin back out, impacting the melt, and the paste gave it a robust earthy flavor. I actually thought it was on par with pizzeria pies I had in Connecticut years ago. Totally different style,  but kindof a happy accident for one bake. (Though my wife didnt experience the nostalgic charm that I did.)
Matt

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1502 on: January 23, 2020, 11:01:14 PM »
You got my attention with the method you mentioned of cooking half the sauce and adding in the raw half after. I did this with my 2nd to last pie. I didn't notice too much of a difference from my usual sauce but that could have been my fault. Last bake I did, I didn't cook the sauce but I did leave it in the fridge for a day with some chunky pieces of onion and garlic along with oregano, fresh basil, salt, pepper and sugar to marinate. took them chunky pieces out before bake. I think I enjoyed it more this way. I am still tinkering with sugar and salt levels.

I also started hand mixing and kneading my dough (no real reason to this except that sometimes I don't feel like setting up the food processor and having to clean all the parts after) and omitting sugar from the recipe. I have been really enjoying it and am trying to dial in the amount of yeast to use for a 2 day CF to get the dough flavor I am after. I feel like I am getting closer.

 I was also inspired by you to increase hydration to 62-63%. I remember first starting out I was always doing low 60's hydration and went down to high 50's for a while. Definitely liking the texture of the baked dough in the 60% range. AT is a thirsty flour and can easily be mixed and kneaded at this range of hydration. If you give it a little time to rest and absorb in between kneading it turns out really nice when you ball it up.


Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1503 on: January 25, 2020, 05:21:54 PM »

I haven't had a chance to post last week's bake yet - I messed it up but it had it's charm. I accidentally cooked the half portion of tomato down to a paste. It didnt fully thin back out, impacting the melt, and the paste gave it a robust earthy flavor. I actually thought it was on par with pizzeria pies I had in Connecticut years ago. Totally different style,  but kindof a happy accident for one bake. (Though my wife didnt experience the nostalgic charm that I did.)

Pics of the aforementioned mess up I had last weekend. Still seemed like a pizzeria pie to me, just not a pizzeria I'd visit too often  :-D

(In addition to my comments in the quote above, I also overfermented the dough, causing bubbles.)



Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1504 on: January 26, 2020, 08:40:33 PM »
Given my botched sauce last week, I thought it was a good time to go back to an uncooked sauce to check my baseline. Boy do I like the thin sauce!

I decided to give fresh oregano another try, and it worked well. It's so mild that even when I mistakenly used less tomato than I intended to, it still didn't overpower. I think I missed the onion from my cooked sauces though.

This was KABF, 1 day cold with 0.18% IDY. It seemed a bit soft and pillowy when eating, but who knows, there are too many variables to try to have a view at this point.

Matt

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1505 on: January 27, 2020, 08:49:29 AM »
Looks perfect Matt - if you get a chance (and feel like it) try a tsp of grated onion in your sauce - I have been using it lately and I like what it adds. But try not to add it too soon - keep it in the sauce 30-60 min max (before using) or it can start to take over the flavor profile.

PS. My wife got me one of these for my BD - it is going on it's maiden voyage tonight with a 2 inch thick porterhouse. Wish me luck :-)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 09:22:07 AM by norcoscia »
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG and PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1506 on: January 27, 2020, 12:09:19 PM »
Ok, so far we have 3 different methods for applying fresh onion to a sauce:

1. Matt - cook the sauce with pieces of onion that are later removed

2. DOP - marinate the sauce in the fridge overnight with pieces of onion that are later removed

3. Norm - add 1 tsp of shaved onion to the sauce no more than an hour before bake time

I was actually thinking to try DOP's method last bake, but I got my tomato out too late, and it was still semi-frozen the night before. I'm definitely intrigued by this method.

I'm wondering if Norm's shaved method in the sauce will create the uniform flavor I'm after, or if it will be more/less present depending on the bite?

As a somewhat side note, I was eating a potato pancake over the weekend that had an amazing flavor coming from the onions. I wouldnt even say it tasted like onion,  it just tasted like wow.

Separately,  I was going to contact you Norm to ask whether you're still using fresh oregano.

Matt

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1507 on: January 27, 2020, 12:16:11 PM »
Yes, still using fresh oregano, BTW - I should have mentioned -- I microplane the onion so it is almost a paste when it goes in. Adds a great background flavor and super easy to do.

Take care buddy and let me know if you try it and how you like it...
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG and PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1508 on: January 27, 2020, 12:20:57 PM »
Thanks Norm, I'll try the microplaned onion for sure

Matt

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1509 on: January 27, 2020, 04:34:55 PM »
Glad to see Norm is still around these parts
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Offline wb54885

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1510 on: January 27, 2020, 07:21:16 PM »
Thatís the Melt Of Legend  :o. Thin sauce, take me away!
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Offline wb54885

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1511 on: January 28, 2020, 12:55:52 PM »
Iím curious about you quoting Harry as having said there were pizzerias who cooked half their sauce and blended that with uncooked tomatoes...Iím doing a lot of reading (again) about what happens when you cook tomatoes, and running back over some threads here (again) that contain spirited debate about the sanctity of sauce and the vulgarity of cooking it first. Itís all very, very interesting to me, as Iím working with a cooked sauce for only the second time in my professional life. And Iím loving the flavor on a plain pie. Even just a tomato pie with a garlic oil drizzle after bake, the cooked sauce just hits me in a satisfying way. I love uncooked tomato sauce as well, but that doesnít surprise meóloving the cooked sauce does.

Our sauce recipe currently uses 5 #10 cans of crushed tomatoes in purťe, added to the sautťed garlic and onions and then with basil added into the whole mix. Cook covered on lowest possible heat for about an hour, until the tomatoes get bright red and break down and become more watery. Then everything gets run through a food mill and I add salt and sugar.

A couple weeks ago I was thinking of the Harry tip and needed a batch of sauce done in a hurry, so I cooked just one can of tomatoes with the onions and garlic and spices/herbs, and put the other 4 cans through a quick blender cycle to break them down a bit. It turned out just fine and I added a bit more sugar to the recipe than I normally do, but the flavor on a cooked pizza just wasnít as deep and I donít know, mysterious? ...as when the entire batch gets cooked. Thought that I should give it a shot with half of the tomatoes to really test the idea, as I didnít expect cooking just 20% of the tomatoes to get close to the original flavor.

But now Iím wondering about the origin of the idea itself to cook half of the tomatoes, because:  no matter how low and slow the cooking process is, it seems inevitable that some of the sauce burns to the bottom of my stock pot. I donít have the time to stir it continuously, and I want to keep it covered to trap water from escaping, so Iíve just accepted that I want to minimize the burning and have that as my goal. But the physics of the container a tomato sauce is likely to be cooked in makes me wonder how you could ever cook larger and larger batches of tomato sauce without losing more and more of it to burning. In a cylinder thatís vertically taller than it is horizontally wide, for the heat to make its way upward through the mass youíre just going to have to wait a while, and the bottom thatís taking direct heat from a burner will inevitably suffer the burning from contact with the flame, or electric element, whatever. Maybe induction burners would behave differently but I havenít tested that, and more to the point, I donít think pizzerias in the outer boroughs that cook their sauce are using induction burners. So Iím wondering...

In the effort to prepare a larger batch of sauce (5 cans really doesnít yield me more than a day, day and a half sauce supply, and Iím only going through 30-40 pizzas on most days, plus sauce for meatballs and garlic knots), did someone decide to cook as much as their stock pot could hold and then blend it with an equal part of uncooked tomatoes out of necessity for getting more done at a time? Rather than going at it from a culinary angle first? This is pretty much where I am in trying to adjust our prep workflow and it occurred to me it could be the origin of Harryís half-cooked sauce rumor. Iím planning on giving this a try soon, with my main concern being replicating the consistency Iíve been achieving (will I need to blend up 2 of the uncooked cans and mill the other 3?), and herb/spice ratios after that. Thought I would share this idea and see if it spurred any memories or suspicions in your sauce quests.

I had been thinking there was a best-of-both-worlds thing going on with only cooking half of the sauce, some genius move to sidestep the purity debate on both sides and achieve sauce transcendence via the middle path. Now Iím wondering if necessity is the mother of invention.

Would love to hear any thoughts you might have. Also curious about you saying that you ended up liking the flavors of the accidentally thicker sauces you were making recently; thatís my experience, too. I want that flavor but at the consistency of a thinner sauce.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 05:03:14 AM by wb54885 »
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Offline josh16

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1512 on: January 28, 2020, 02:55:38 PM »
i have very little experience with pizza making compared to the rest of you guys, but let me add my 2 cents on cooked vs uncooked sauce. in my thought process the question really is how cooked do i want my sauce. the minimum cook we can achieve is to add it raw to the pizza and let it cook while the pizza bakes (nyc style specifically because to get a melt we have to add the sauce before baking the pizza) and then the maximum is however long we can cook it without burning the sauce. any further changes we make (mixing pre-cooked with raw sauce, changing cook time, cook temp,...) just adjusts the way we cook the tomato overall. i wonder what the comparison would be like if i took 4 cans cooked for 10 minutes and compared it to 1 can cooked for 30 then mixed with 3 cans uncooked. anyway, i'm done rambling  :-D

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1513 on: January 28, 2020, 04:09:04 PM »
wb54885,

Many years ago, I saw quite a few posts at the PMQ Think Tank where I read of members who debated the matter of cooking or not cooking their pizza sauces. These debates were in the context of a commercial setting. As you may already have gathered, Tom Lehmann is not an advocate of cooking pizza sauces. But to shed light on the subject, today I did a search of the posts at the PMQ Think Tank where cooked pizza sauces were discussed. Doing a search as broad as cooked sauces can turn up a veritable plethora of threads and posts to go through. But, having done so as best I could, I present the following links should you and/or Matt decide to do a deeper dive into cooked pizza sauces ;D.

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/what-is-tomato-sauce-and-tomato-puree-in-the-u-s.17415/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pressurecooked-cooked-sauce.10188/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/sauce-tomatoes.15391/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/do-you-have-to-use-a-steam-kettle-to-make-sauce-in.9862/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-sauce.9487/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-sauce-101.7199/page-2#post-48341

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/sause-help.7216/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/looking-for-some-opinions-on-my-sauce-recipe-good-or-bad.4545/

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-sauce-recipe.13335/#post-82132

https://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/pizza-sauce.9487/

In the course of reading the above threads and posts, I think you will also see many other interesting ideas on pizza sauces in general.

Peter

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1514 on: January 28, 2020, 06:00:57 PM »
WB, many thanks as always for your thoughts. It's going to take me some time to reply to all of it, but I'll start now with a couple quick posts
Matt

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1515 on: January 28, 2020, 06:09:48 PM »
Also curious about you saying that you ended up liking the flavors of the accidentally thicker sauces you were making recently; thatís my experience, too. I want that flavor but at the consistency of a thinner sauce.

I'm not sure this is exactly right. I liked the flavor of the first couple cooked sauces, and they were only marginally thicker. It's not clear to me though whether it was the cooking itself, or the subtle flavors of fresh onion and fresh garlic that Iiked. This is why I'm intrigued by the methods of getting these ingredients in without cooking.

The last cooked sauce I did was accidentally cooked to a paste, then thinned a bit with raw tomato. While it's true that I liked the flavor of this sauce, it was too rich/robust/earthy for what I'm going for. It reminded me of pizza I've had in New England. Not bad, but different.

Is it too simple to add water to dilute the sauce? What would the difference be if you cooked without a lid, then added water back in? The New England pizzerias I'm referring aren't cooking their sauce, but diluting a paste/ heavy puree.

Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1516 on: January 28, 2020, 06:19:02 PM »
I've been meaning to post these 4 quotes from the NY sauce thread. WB, not sure if you read these. Provides context for everyone either way.

Some pizzerias simmer 1/4th the sauce with the oil/herbs/spices/grated cheese and combine it with uncooked pureed crushed tomatoes and some chunks out of can.  Gets a Jungian duality thing going, intense yet fresh.

This is what people did before microwaves existed.
That's what I  often do.  Sweat some minced garlic, tomato paste,  anchovy paste,  crushed red pepper and oregano in olive oil until fragrant.  Add tomatoes and simmer really low for 20 minutes.  I use it straight for an upside down square,  dilute it with uncooked tomatoes for a Sicilian and sometimes dilute it even more for a round pie.

For a NY slice pie, I prefer to not use oil.  I don't think olive oil is appropriate.  Vegetable (soybean) oil is ok,  but it isn't something I keep in the pantry.  Usually boil some minced garlic in a little bit of water in the microwave and add that to an uncooked sauce and sometimes add a little cooked sauce to that if I have it.



My NY pizza sauce is bit more complicated, basically low simmered saporito + water with the usual suspects, salt, pepper, dried oregano, garlic, oil/butter, and romano powder remove, emulsify further with immersion blender and then add to fresh 7/11 puree for brightness.   Sometimes I just simmer the whole thing together.  Total 20 minutes or so low heat.

For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

...
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1517 on: January 28, 2020, 08:32:59 PM »
One more thing I'll add at this point - I of course have no idea whether Harry's partial-cook claim is true, or what pizzerias use it. But I was interested partially because of the fresh and bright concept from the raw tomato. But I was even more interested because it should(ve) made it easier for me to keep the thin sauce and melt that I want.
Matt

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1518 on: January 29, 2020, 09:21:05 AM »
Peter...you are the creme de la creme! :) 

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1519 on: January 29, 2020, 11:12:34 AM »
Bill,

Thank you for the kind words. Reading through the PMQTT posts was an interesting exercise since it covered things from the professionals side.

Peter

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