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Author Topic: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr  (Read 74793 times)

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Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1400 on: November 26, 2019, 12:06:20 AM »
It was just ok. Not alot of thin spots, but at least one. I increased IDY a bit to 0.25% (1 day CF again) and increased warm up time to 50 mins.

But I still wasnt happy with the crust. It seemed underbaked. My more fermented doughs baked more complete, but had the thin spots.

I put a couple slices on the stone to re-heat for 1:30, 20 minutes after the pie finished. The oven was and remained off, and I dont know the stone temp. While I didn't love the re-heat overall, the crust had a thin crisp. Was interesting for sure.

I'm considering altering my bake by either:
- increasing stone temp from 500 to 515
- increasing direct stone time
- increasing bake time to 10 minutes (from 8:30)

I dunno. I could go back to a longer mix. Or keep increasing fermentation.  I want to figure something out. I'm not sure why this is so hard. (I suspect my massive amount of thin sauce is part of it.)

That's no good my friend!
Out of those options me personally I would raise my stone temperature one it will keep more moisture 2 it should help with oven spring and help with your issue.

Fermentation is hard from my experience I definitely air on the side of over fermented then under just because of finished product.

The longer mix time worked great for me I have never felt a pizza skin like that it was very nice and I had a lot of confidence when opening it. One thing is though I am on a different spectrum so I don't know how that would translate to your setup? I do more fermentation in the 50_65f range and I also use a really high oven temperature so I definitely get that open crust so not sure if that makes a difference with the longer mixing? From what I've noticed is under mixing it over mixing it has its own arch in the middle is a really tight dough then after you over mix for a certain part it actually acts like underd mixed dough but with more strength if that makes sense?


I'm fairly confident you will get this figured out very shortly, that last pizza looked amazing your cheese melt was on point
Josh

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1401 on: November 26, 2019, 02:25:14 PM »
So, how long do you mix Irishboy?
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Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1402 on: November 27, 2019, 11:43:35 AM »
So, how long do you mix Irishboy?
20min last time with streach and folding a few times. It was great
Josh

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1403 on: November 27, 2019, 03:22:38 PM »
I once said I mix for 20 minutes and got jumped all over by an "expert" here.   Works for me!

Offline foreplease

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1404 on: November 27, 2019, 04:25:50 PM »
I once said I mix for 20 minutes and got jumped all over by an "expert" here.   Works for me!
I’m glad it works for you and believe whatever produces the results one wants is what one should do. That said, I wouldn’t call this much of a thrashing or being jumped all over. I would call Mike an expert but nobody can really be an expert in what someone else wants or likes IMHO.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg562253#msg562253
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1405 on: November 27, 2019, 04:56:39 PM »
Sorry, sounds like mumbo jumbo to me....
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Offline foreplease

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1406 on: November 27, 2019, 06:30:25 PM »
Sorry, sounds like mumbo jumbo to me....
I’m simply and peacefully calling BS on this being “jumped all over.” The rest is the kind of encouraging thing you have said yourself many times in your own way.


25 minutes?!?‘
-Tony

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1407 on: November 27, 2019, 07:33:53 PM »
I’m simply and peacefully calling BS on this being “jumped all over.” The rest is the kind of encouraging thing you have said yourself many times in your own way.


25 minutes?!?‘
I am a very sensitive guy and often I feel jumped over.   ;D

Offline foreplease

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1408 on: November 27, 2019, 08:29:52 PM »
I am a very sensitive guy and often I feel jumped over.   ;D
:-D   :-D  That is a great response! Happy Thanksgiving.
-Tony

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1409 on: November 28, 2019, 09:55:30 AM »
:-D   :-D  That is a great response! Happy Thanksgiving.
Too you as well!!!  Enjoy!

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1410 on: December 01, 2019, 08:34:06 PM »
Pic for now, details to follow

Matt

Offline jvp123

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1411 on: December 01, 2019, 08:42:09 PM »
Pic for now, details to follow

Looks great, Matt.  :chef:   
Jeff

Offline novawaly

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1412 on: December 07, 2019, 11:58:17 AM »
After a cold caused me to miss 2 bakes, back with a vengence! Really liked this pie, some great progress.

2 major changes:
Much less feremented (likely a bit underfermented)
Tried LDM for the first time

IDY reduced to 0.19%, 1 day CF, only sat for 5 minutes before balling, then 35 minutes warm up before bake. (Last week I did a test of 0.25% IDY and 1-day CF, but it was still problematic...but that sat out longer before going into the fridge.)

1% LDM - I'm not sure how much this impacted the final product versus the reduced fermentation, but I know I saw real potential with the crust.

100% AT (no bromate), 63% water, 3% oil, 2% sugar, 1.85% salt, 1% LDM, 0.19% IDY.

Huge improvement in the stretched skin. No bubbles at all when stretching, and no webbing. The dough let me stretch it rather than gravity. And it was really smooth. NO thin spots. (Though there were a couple areas that I left a little thicker, but that was simply error on my part.)

Note that the skin wasnt quite as white as it looks in the pictures.

3/4 cup + 2 spoons sauce again. Added garlic back to the sauce (1/32 tsp), likely do half next time.

8:40 bake, with the final minute direct on stone.

What thickness factor are you usually going for? No matter what I try I can't seem to get rid of thin spots, webbing and easy to work with dough. I tried your exact formulation here but Im going for .07ish for a really thin crust so wondering if that could potentially be the cause?

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1413 on: December 07, 2019, 12:42:29 PM »
What thickness factor are you usually going for? No matter what I try I can't seem to get rid of thin spots, webbing and easy to work with dough. I tried your exact formulation here but Im going for .07ish for a really thin crust so wondering if that could potentially be the cause?

Maybe, especially if you only get the webbing at the tail end of getting it to full size. But that's definitely not my issue, so you may have whatever my problem is.

I'll note that I'm not a big fan of quoting TF because many factors other than dough weight will impact the thickness of the crust.

But I've been using 393 grams of dough for 14", which equates to a TF of 0.09.

Matt

Offline novawaly

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1414 on: December 07, 2019, 01:10:02 PM »
yea I suspect it's down to process. I'm using a processor - so either not long enough on the knead or maybe too long similar to your issue.

I just tried another batch with your formulation for a CF 24 hour rise and tried kneading for another min or two after about 45-60 secs in the processor so we'll see how that comes out.

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Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1415 on: December 07, 2019, 07:28:55 PM »
I definitely don't feel it's fermentaion anymore I had a dough this weekend that was under fermented and I still had to bake it for timing issues and I it the webbing effect . In my personal opinion what I'm going to start looking into is either developing the gluten more which I did a 20-minute mix that went to window pane and I didn't have that issue it was amazing, but I didn't spend the 48 hours like I normally do that was a 24-hour so I have to check either the mixing or maybe in my case 48 hours is too much for my dough strength at 52 degrees Fahrenheit.  I'm going to put my money on mixing not enough even though that's what I've always read at time will develop the gluten I don't seem to have that luck. I notice when I barely developed my dough and say if I stripped it right out from the mixer and opened it up it would have that webbing but if I really develop the gluten and opened it up right after the mixer it would not have that effect but a nice window pane so if I start out right I should finish right in my theory.

Mixing?
Balling improper?
Shorten the total time fermutation.

Josh

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1416 on: December 07, 2019, 07:59:36 PM »
I definitely don't feel it's fermentaion anymore I had a dough this weekend that was under fermented and I still had to bake it for timing issues and I it the webbing effect . In my personal opinion what I'm going to start looking into is either developing the gluten more which I did a 20-minute mix that went to window pane and I didn't have that issue it was amazing, but I didn't spend the 48 hours like I normally do that was a 24-hour so I have to check either the mixing or maybe in my case 48 hours is too much for my dough strength at 52 degrees Fahrenheit.  I'm going to put my money on mixing not enough even though that's what I've always read at time will develop the gluten I don't seem to have that luck. I notice when I barely developed my dough and say if I stripped it right out from the mixer and opened it up it would have that webbing but if I really develop the gluten and opened it up right after the mixer it would not have that effect but a nice window pane so if I start out right I should finish right in my theory.

Mixing?
Balling improper?
Shorten the total time fermutation.

Good stuff. I like the idea of mixing more and less CF time. I just did 13 minutes and will be 1-day. I'm thinking/hoping that mixing more partially makes up for our weak home small-batch mixers. And I don't think the typical NY slice shop is doing more than a 1-day CF.

Matt

Offline foreplease

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1417 on: December 07, 2019, 08:09:43 PM »
Good stuff. I like the idea of mixing more and less CF time. I just did 13 minutes and will be 1-day. I'm thinking/hoping that mixing more partially makes up for our weak home small-batch mixers. A nd I don't think the typical NY slice shop is doing more than a 1-day CF.
E.B. White wrote that “Democracy is the recurrent suspicion that more than half the people are right more than half the time.” In the sense that I’ve often thought we sometimes make things way more complicated than typical NY slice shops, as you said, or even our grandmothers did I think you are right.
-Tony

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1418 on: December 07, 2019, 08:13:51 PM »
Pic for now, details to follow

Ok, here are some details on my last pizza. 2 major changes, sauce and dough.

Sauce:
I made it 24 hours in advance and let it sit in the fridge. It was my "simple" sauce, no garlic. Only salt, sugar, oregano, fresh basil and EVOO. I definitely liked it. I think it had a stronger smell when I was prepping the pie, and it seemed a little more herby. And no reduction in tomato flavor. It's hard to say whether it really made a difference or not, but I don't see any reason not to do this again.

Dough:
Given that I'm about to finish off my bag of unbromated All Trumps, I've been thinking about what flour to buy next. I decided to try some of my old King Arthur High Gluten (formerly KASL) that I had laying around.

The problem was I wasn't thinking at all when I made the dough, and I increased the IDY to 0.375% not realizing that I was also doubling my fermenatation time to 2 days. The dough looked ready after 1 day. After another 12 hours it was beyond ready, and that is the first picture I my post above. I decided at that point to re-ball, with the bake still 12 hours away. While reballing, tons of bubbles popped, sounding like chewing gum. 

The second dough pic is just before bake. Whatever I did, it didn't work. The dough wasn't stretchy at all. And it still had a bunch of bubbles. I was able to get it to full size, but with thin spots.

Overall the pizza was still good. The crust had some softness, yet was firm. It was different than All Trumps, but I couldn't describe exactly how. I have a dough in the fridge for tomorrow with King Arthur again. This time 0.25% IDY, and will be a 1-day CF.
Matt

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
« Reply #1419 on: December 07, 2019, 08:27:05 PM »
As far as mixing like I said on one of my previous test I really over mixed in the 20-minute range with a few stretch and folds I had a beautiful window pane is stretched out nice once the fermentation was over the door was very solid and easy to open but yet strong but no snapback I thought to myself when opening the dough this is what all the pizzerias look like on YouTube. I was expecting the crust to be dense and hard but that was not the case I am also using a very high temperature oven so it might be different for a home oven?


So this is the way I looked at long mix times it's kind of like an arch on the low in you get soft open crust on the medium range you get hard dense crust then it becomes a point where it goes back to open and soft this is what I read on a few threads on this form a long time ago it is supports my act.


the time doesn't seem to develop there gluten enough for me so I like to try to get a strong gluten film right out the mixer now.


I did another test batch then I'm waiting results on but I had mixed everything a tablespoon at a time to make sure everything was hydrated they when it was too stiff I put it in my mixer and turn it on the highest speed it was not on the hook at all and it kneeded very fast, Tom actually just made a post about this how the mixers need a ba to upper RPM like the kitchen aid and I actually believe this the dough felt amazing and it was done within a couple of minutes. All you really have to do is get a test dough put a little bit of food coloring on the outside then keep it at low RPM and see how much it really makes us now I'll turn it on high and see how much that food coloring goes inside the dough.


The other two options that I c is in proper balling which I've tried every witch way under the sun so either I just really suck or that's not the problem


The other is fermentation to long for my strength of flower which I don't really see either I'm running 13% protein which I should be able to go 48 hours at 52 degrees Craig runs all purpose flour with sourdough for 48 hours at 62 degrees no problem.


My money is on longer mixing and I'm going to start practicing that more or not necessarily longer mixing but more development until I get a nice window pane

So with my above test I shouldn't really say longer mixed I'm necessarily but it more developed dough, I think it's more effective to run a higher speed lower the friction and the amount of time the yeast is active in the room temperature. As per the dough doctor just make sure your dough is not on the hook at all and is always getting mixed.


Another thing I've been testing out is sifting the flour like Peter has done in the past I've been having amazing results add more hydration in my dough at least 2% higher hydration the dough is not overly sticky at all.

« Last Edit: December 07, 2019, 08:31:33 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

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