Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr

[quietdesperation]

Interesting! I started with kasl but over time, moved to kabf and kaap because they're so readily available. I've been tempted to purchase a 25-pound bag of at or kasl but don't really want to deal with storage issues.

matt, I've been hankering to have another go at starr, lmk if you're interested.

[Pete-zza]

Matt,

For the record, I have set forth below some links for the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour and the All Trumps Flour.

However, this morning a curious thing happened to me at the King Arthur website. More specifically, when I entered the words "Sir Lancelot" (without the quotes) into the search box at the SHOP page of the KA website, I got zero hits but five recipes. Puzzled by this, I then entered the words "high-gluten" (again without the quotes) and got three flours named high-gluten. These appeared at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/search?algolia-index=Product&query=high-gluten. As can be seen at that page, one of the high-gluten flours is organic, whereas the other two are not. If you click on the photos, you will see that the KA high-gluten flour in the 3-pound bag has the following comment:

We call our high-gluten flour Sir Lancelot, and here's why: Legend tells us that Sir Lancelot was King Arthur's greatest champion, so it is fitting to name our high-performing, robust bread flour after him.

As proud as KA may be of the Sir Lancelot story and name, it does not appear on the bag of flour itself. Notably, you will not see that comment if you click on the photos for the organic high-gluten flour or the three-pack of the same flour that presumably is the same as the flour in the single 3-pound bag.

So, Query 1: Where is the bag of high-gluten flour at KA that bears the Sir Lancelot name. Maybe someone with better search skills than I can find it. Or maybe they never put the Sir Lancelot name on their small retail bags of high-gluten flour.

Another thing that puzzled me was that when I clicked on the links to the ingredients and Nutrition facts for the three flours, none was enriched, although all were malted. It has always been my understanding that the Sir Lancelot flour was enriched. For example, if you look at the chart archived at the Wayback Machine at https://web.archive.org/web/20060311133549/http://www.kingarthurflour.com/stuff/contentmgr/files/528fa553a218e1e5566108ef6e4c55d9/miscdocs/Nutritional%20Analysis.pdf, you will see that the Sir Lancelot flour at the time of that chart was clearly enriched, as was also the case for the KA all purpose and bread flours.

So, Query 2: Has KA stopped enriching the Sir Lancelot flour?

The above puzzlement led me to broaden my search for the KA high-gluten flour by the name Sir Lancelot, and that lead me to this two-page document at the webstaurant.com website at:

https://cdnimg.webstaurantstore.com/documents/specsheets/sir_lancelot_hi-gluten_flour__13050.pdf

The above document clearly shows enrichment of the Sir Lancelot flour. You can see what the bag of Sir Lancelot flour looks like at the webstaurant.com website at https://www.webstaurantstore.com/king-arthur-flour-sir-lancelot-50-lb-hi-gluten-flour/104NFL5100S.html.

So, Query 3: Is KA only using the name Sir Lancelot for their professional version of that flour?

As for the All Trumps flour, finding the nutrition and related information is quite easy to do. Here are the two links, one for the bleached and bromated version and the other for the unbleached and bromated version.

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50111000

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50121000

GM also has an unbleached and unbromated version of the All Trumps flour, in a 25-pound package, but one must call GM for that information (see https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/all-trumps-enriched-malted-25lb). All of the flours are malted and enriched.

In practice, much of the above analysis is perhaps not of much value. The specs for the Sir Lancelot and All Trumps are similar but perhaps one should take into account that the All Trumps flour that our members may be using may be bromated and the potassium bromate will be a factor in preparing the dough. A good starting point for those deciding to compare the two flours in practice may be to make two doughs with the same dough formulation and compare the two final pizzas, and use those results to tweak the formulation to achieve better results. For those who may want to bone up on potassium bromate, see https://web.archive.org/web/20130820221140/https://www.aibonline.org/press/SafeUsePotassiumBromate%2009_08.pdf.

Peter

[hammettjr]

Hi Peter, let me have a think, but in the meantime, I can tell you that during roughly 2013-2015 the 3lb bags that I was ordering directly from the company had a "Sir Lancelot" sticker label, then the label changed to "High Gluten". The pictures below from the net are what I remember.

I didn't think too much of the label change, and assumed it was just the label and not the flour that changed, but I may be wrong. I assumed that the name Sir Lancelot didn't make sense for retail as it doesnt describe what the product is.

Also, below is a quote of the language I used a month ago when I started using KA again. Since then I've simplified my language to KASL as that's what most forum members are familiar with.

I decided to try some of my old King Arthur High Gluten (formerly KASL) that I had laying around.
..

[hammettjr]

Interesting! I started with kasl but over time, moved to kabf and kaap because they're so readily available. I've been tempted to purchase a 25-pound bag of at or kasl but don't really want to deal with storage issues.

matt, I've been hankering to have another go at starr, lmk if you're interested.

Hey QD, would be great to meet up again. I may have some of both flours I can share so you can sample 

I've really liked using 2 large food-grade buckets to store 50lb of flour. The flour is so cheap it's hard not to buy in bulk. But it's a year commitment for me to use it all, so I want to keep experimenting before I make my next full size purchase.

[Pete-zza]

Hi Peter, let me have a think, but in the meantime, I can tell you that during roughly 2013-2015 the 3lb bags that I was ordering directly from the company had a "Sir Lancelot" sticker label, then the label changed to "High Gluten". The pictures below from the net are what I remember.

I didn't think too much of the label change, and assumed it was just the label and not the flour that changed, but I may be wrong. I assumed that the name Sir Lancelot didn't make sense for retail as it doesnt describe what the product is.

Also, below is a quote of the language I used a month ago when I started using KA again. Since then I've simplified my language to KASL as that's what most forum members are familiar with.

Matt,

If you go to the KA webpage for professional bakery flours, at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/pro/products, you will see that the Sir Lancelot flour is listed there and is an enriched flour. So, unless KA has been sloppy, it looks like the retail flour (now called high-gluten flour) that was once called Sir Lancelot but still referred to that name in its description of the high-gluten flour, the retail flour is not enriched. That's no big deal but I think KA should be clear in how it describes its various flours. Maybe I will send KA an email to see what they say.

Peter

[hammettjr]

Matt,

If you go to the KA webpage for professional bakery flours, at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/pro/products, you will see that the Sir Lancelot flour is listed there and is an enriched flour. So, unless KA has been sloppy, it looks like the retail flour (now called high-gluten flour) that was once called Sir Lancelot but still referred to that name in its description of the high-gluten flour, the retail flour is not enriched. That's no big deal but I think KA should be clear in how it describes its various flours. Maybe I will send KA an email to see what they say.

Peter

Peter, would be interesting if you emailed them. I expect they'll provide you full info.

I just took a look at the website and noticed another difference between the professional Sir Lancelot and the retail High-Gluten. Sir Lancelot is listed as 14% protein, and given that several other flours on that same page are listed at XX.2% protein, it implies that KASL is 14.0%. The retail high gluten, however, is listed at 14.2%.

[Pete-zza]

Peter, would be interesting if you emailed them. I expect they'll provide you full info.

I just took a look at the website and noticed another difference between the professional Sir Lancelot and the retail High-Gluten. Sir Lancelot is listed as 14% protein, and given that several other flours on that same page are listed at XX.2% protein, it implies that KASL is 14.0%. The retail high gluten, however, is listed at 14.2%.

Matt,

I sent off an email this afternoon asking for clarification on the naming, enrichment and protein issues. Like you, I noticed a discrepancy between the protein values. I think that KA intends that the protein values be the same but they did not make that entirely clear.

Peter

[jkb]

I used KASL before I found a source for AT.  $17 for a 50lb sack is hard to beat.

[hammettjr]

I used KASL before I found a source for AT.  $17 for a 50lb sack is hard to beat.

I agree and am in a similar boat. But I learned that my supplier also has 50lb bags of KASL. And it seems based on admittedly limited tests, that KASL may be more forgiving than the unbromated version of AT. Given my lack of dough making and handling experience, an easier to use product may be better for me at this point.

[Pete-zza]

It looks like KA had a different bag for the retail Sir Lancelot flour at one time, also in the three-pound weight, but with more detail on the contents of the bag.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

This morning I received the following reply from King Arthur:

Dear Peter,

Thank you for contacting us at King Arthur Flour. Both our high gluten flour are listed at 14% protein. It may be you are looking at an old webpage on the internet.

We stopped enriching our flours about a year ago. White flour is no longer relied upon for B vitamins and iron, given changes in eating habits and the availability of nutrients in other foods and supplements. With a mission that’s always centered on providing the purest, highest quality flour, we decided to remove the enrichment allowing our Signature white flours to contain only the ingredients that contribute directly to their superior bakeability.

Our professional bakers have the option of choosing enriched or non-enriched flour when they order from their distributors.

I hope this clarifies the information for you.

Best wishes,


Judy
Customer Support Shift Lead
800-827-6836
[email protected]

Although Judy did not mention it, the Sir Lancelot name appears to be used only on large bags of the Sir Lancelot flour sold to professionals. This morning I did a quick search and found several places selling the Sir Lancelot flour in large bags under that name on the bags. To avoid confusion, perhaps KA should stop using the statement below when describing their high-gluten flour for the retail product shown at https://shop.kingarthurflour.com/items/high-gluten-flour-3-lb. I suggested that in a response I made to the above reply that I received this morning. As a side note, it will be seen that the description of the flour at https://shop.kingarthurflour.com/items/high-gluten-flour-3-lb cites the protein content as 14.2%, not 14%.

We call our high-gluten flour Sir Lancelot, and here's why: Legend tells us that Sir Lancelot was King Arthur's greatest champion, so it is fitting to name our high-performing, robust bread flour after him.

Peter

[DreamingOfPizza]

Matt, is there any reason you have never tried the bromated and malted version of all trumps? 

[hammettjr]

Matt, is there any reason you have never tried the bromated and malted version of all trumps?

Hi DOP,

Yes, though not a great reason and that may change soon.

I'm a fairly health-conscious person. I dont want to start a debate here, and I'll readily admit that I dont know whether bromate is actually unhealthy. But I figured that since I have the option to avoid using it, then I should.

The main problem with my logic is that my biggest concern was making bromated pizza for my kids. But the reality is they eat much more pizza from my local pizzerias, and they are all bromated.

I also haven't had an easy opportunity to try it...until now. The last time I was at my supplier, their new retail shop had an open bag for customers to buy whatever amount they wanted. I bought a few pounds, but havent tried it yet.

I'm interested to try it to find out whether it really makes a difference. But am concerned I'll really like it then will have a tough decision.

Note its bleached and bromated. I dont think I've used a bleach flour either, so that's another thing I haven't tried.

[Fiorot]

Do you really think you will be able to tell a difference.  I am under the impression California Lefties outlawed Bromated Flour. For a Cancer Scare.  Like so many other products they have outlawed with scant facts to support it.

[hammettjr]

Do you really think you will be able to tell a difference.  I am under the impression California Lefties outlawed Bromated Flour. For a Cancer Scare.  Like so many other products they have outlawed with scant facts to support it.

As i said, I'm interested to try it to see if I notice a difference.  I dont know whether I will or not. But bleach and bromate are added for a reason. A reason other than marketing.

[parallei]

Matt, is there any reason you have never tried the bromated and malted version of all trumps?

I do not believe there is an un-malted version on AT.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Chicago Bob]

As i said, I'm interested to try it to see if I notice a difference.  I dont know whether I will or not. But bleach and bromate are added for a reason. A reason other than marketing.

and I like the additions. 💪

[hammettjr]

Given my schedule is forcing a 1 day CF, I'm very low on King Arthur, and my curiosity (that you guys furthered above), I'm doing my first bleached and bromated bake.

100% AT (B/B), 63% water, 3% oil, 2% sugar, 1.85% salt, 1% LDM, 0.25% IDY. Mixed about 13 minutes.

This was likely the nicest looking doughball I've ever made. Still not sure it'll make a difference in final bake (and hoping it doesn't).  Bake Sunday night.

[Fiorot]

Why hope not?  Hope it carries on to be better.

[hammettjr]

Why hope not?  Hope it carries on to be better.

Yeah, I guess I'm torn. If it turns out to be an awesome dough and real NY crust that'd be great. But I'm kindof hoping the bleach/bromate are unnecessary.

...although it could be great yet unnecessary. King Arthur suggests mixing longer to strengthen an unbromated dough.