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Author Topic: My Road To Napoli  (Read 11207 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #160 on: August 19, 2019, 02:21:51 PM »
When you say semolina, do you mean semola? IMHO, semola is a much better as the dusting flour - the grain size is smaller than semolina because it is basically re-ground semolina. I use this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008ZGMP2M/?tag=pmak-20

I have both wood and perforated GI metal pans and I only use the wood one when cooking at lower temperatures such as 340-370F. The wood one is nice for maintaining a perfectly circular pizza shape, but much more flour slides into the oven and so I don't use it for launching at higher temps such as 400F or above. I absolutely love the GI metal perforated; I think it's worth it. There is a learning curve though. You can't really build the pie on the peel, and you have to move fast or the dough can sink into the perforations. Other than that, it's awesome for avoiding burnt bottoms. As you said though, when you cook at such high temps, you will always have that risk and may need to dome early to reduce burnt bottoms. That's one of the reasons I prefer to cook at lower temps for longer periods.

For your iPhone, you can just email the photos from the phone to yourself and then download them to your Linux Desktop from there :) Just go to the photos app, use Select button to select the ones you want to send and then email them to yourself.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #161 on: August 19, 2019, 02:55:29 PM »
When you say semolina, do you mean semola? IMHO, semola is a much better as the dusting flour - the grain size is smaller than semolina because it is basically re-ground semolina. I use this one:

Yes I mean rimacinata.  I have read but still have problems to remember what semola, semolina and rimacinata really refer too :)  IIRC they are all made from hard wheat, one is more refined, another has more bran and the 3rd has been milled really fine.

Quote
I have both wood and perforated GI metal pans and I only use the wood one when cooking at lower temperatures such as 340-370F. The wood one is nice for maintaining a perfectly circular pizza shape, but much more flour slides into the oven and so I don't use it for launching at higher temps such as 400F or above. I absolutely love the GI metal perforated; I think it's worth it. There is a learning curve though. You can't really build the pie on the peel, and you have to move fast or the dough can sink into the perforations. Other than that, it's awesome for avoiding burnt bottoms. As you said though, when you cook at such high temps, you will always have that risk and may need to dome early to reduce burnt bottoms. That's one of the reasons I prefer to cook at lower temps for longer periods.

OK, you have convinced me, I see a GI.Metal peel arriving sometime this autumn..:)

I kind of prefer 2 minutes at about 400C.  Nearly Neapolitan with just a slight crispiness.  It's also a lot more relaxed than close to the 60 seconds mark..  Still stuff like pancetta/guanciale gets a very nice crispyness when cooked at 500C!  I can envision partly choosing the cooking temp/time depending on the toppings.
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #162 on: August 19, 2019, 09:53:34 PM »
I'm with you on the 2 mins at 400C - I'm super happy with the pizzas I'm getting in the 2-2.5 minute range and 370-400C. The main benefit is that I'm not getting any gum line and at least subjectively, it seems that the pizza is so much more digestible without any gumminess.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #163 on: August 20, 2019, 06:33:34 AM »
I want to make some longer baked pies too now and then. How do you manage the oven for the 2 minute pies?
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #164 on: August 20, 2019, 08:39:12 AM »
The Gospel :D

I just set the upper at 400C and the lower at a temperature where it's always off.  IIRC, with these settings I measure about 400-420C on the biscotto with a pyrometer.  I launch and then about a minute later I turn the first time, maybe another couple of turns and at about the 2 minute mark it's done.

This is quite convenient and I like the result.  If I want to bake hotter I just set the upper to 500C a few minutes before launching.

Edit: Setting the upper to 350C seems to correspond pretty well with a 2.5 minute bake.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 09:04:43 AM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #165 on: August 21, 2019, 02:17:45 PM »
All this talk about the oven temperature, etc has made me look at this mod again..  :)

Think I really want to make a mod like this in the autumn/winter.  Not sure how much it helps with baking, but it would certainly keep the temperatures more steady than the thermostats..  Just a bit uncertain about making such a fundamental change to an oven that already works more than fine as it is..



Edit: don't know how I can post the link to a fb video...

But found a youtube one that shows the PIDs and timer pretty well:
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 02:56:37 PM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #166 on: August 21, 2019, 02:44:58 PM »
Another video showing the timer in one of it's modes.  The comments also say that he has a modded upper resistance of 2700W :D  Really get G.A.S (Gear Acquisition Syndrome) when I watch these videos..!!!  >:D

Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #167 on: August 21, 2019, 03:24:33 PM »
That certainly looks enticing. I also wonder it affects the bake. A PID can absolutely keep a more consistent temperature, but it would be interesting to see a log of how the regulator controlled the element once it reached target temp and after launching. We set the thermostat lower to be able to fire it up and get the element red hot before launching. Maybe it would just stay pretty hot if you set the PID to a high temperature.

If you got the tools it shouldn't be too big of a deal to install. What does a PID cost? If I were to consider it, I'd probably just replace it for the upper element. Like you, I would probably want to know how it worked in practice compared to the thermostat I got today. If the PID wasn't too expensive, one could even buy and connect it externally just to try it out, before deciding if you want to install it into the oven.

2700W is quite something. Have you seen any videos of him baking especially fast ones? The 1900W element can do 60-70s pies. I can't see any other reason to upgrade to 2700 than reducing bake time.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #168 on: August 21, 2019, 04:03:18 PM »
A kit with PID, solid state relay, heatsink and probe costs about 40E or so, but you'd have to buy another probe that goes higher than 400C, then some cables, connectors, etc.

If the mod is the same I've read about, then the probe is in the center, a cm or so under a metal strip that supports the heavier element.  It's interesting to note how the temperature descends in the second video.

The pulsing orange and green lights show that the elements have been programmed to not always be on.  That's makes them act like less powerful elements.

What I've seen so far from him looks like about 60s bakes..  But I note that there is very little black on the biscotto when he removes the pizza, and it doesn't look very crispy, so I think the bottom will be very good. 

I note the thick heatshield on the door, and the reinforcement around the window.  Think that is 3 mm stainless steel. I also saw another mod where someone added a second gasket around the one sealing the door.  That's probably an easy and worthwhile mod to do.  Ought to keep more heat in the oven..?

Edited the black and crispiness part, didn't read like I meant it  ???
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 04:11:08 PM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #169 on: August 21, 2019, 05:19:03 PM »
Heikjo,

If you read french this is quite a good write up, some good ideas in there: https://pizzanapo.fr/index.php?/topic/673-un-p134-de-36kw-resistance-voute-2700w-double-pid-lampe/
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #170 on: August 21, 2019, 06:28:57 PM »
Like you, I would probably want to know how it worked in practice compared to the thermostat I got today.

I missed that, did you order a new thermostat?

Quote
2700W is quite something. Have you seen any videos of him baking especially fast ones? The 1900W element can do 60-70s pies. I can't see any other reason to upgrade to 2700 than reducing bake time.

He bakes with a p134h modded by byFDM, with a p134h-SE, and with a Pizza Party Ardore. Notice that in the first video he cooks a pizza in about 55-60s without turning.. :D
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 06:36:42 PM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #171 on: August 22, 2019, 02:51:15 AM »
I missed that, did you order a new thermostat?
No. I meant that if I were to consider a PID, I would probably want to know what effect it had before buying.

He bakes with a p134h modded by byFDM, with a p134h-SE, and with a Pizza Party Ardore. Notice that in the first video he cooks a pizza in about 55-60s without turning.. :D
My last two pies were baked in 60s without turning. Maybe his were larger, hard to tell.

Thanks for the link. :) I can certainly not read French, but Google can.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 02:52:56 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #172 on: August 22, 2019, 02:52:19 PM »
Heikjo,

Regarding black on the bottoms, I was googling about these PID mods and came across some interesting posts.  One said that both too much flour and a too wet dough causes the pizza to burn, that seems to correspond with one of my latest experiments where I removed a lot of the flour before extending the disc.  It had enough humid areas on the bottom to stick both on the bench as well as on the wooden peal, it also felt more humid on the top while extending.  It was blacker than a pizza that had more flour on the bottom and didn't stick..

Another post said to also be careful with the toppings and that heavy items might cause black spots.

I'm gonna keep this in mind in the future.  I am going on vacation this Saturday, so it will probably be a pizza free 3 weeks, unless I decide to drive to Da Michele in Barcelona.  :D

I'll study this PID mod during my self imposed fasting, it might actually be useful to keep a steady controlled temperature instead of changing the thermostat setting and counting minutes.  That it looks awesome and is techie are other considerations ;)  It's probably not necessary at all for good pizza, but I think it might be useful, and if I do it then I'll do two PIDs and a timer like in the video.
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #173 on: August 22, 2019, 06:18:18 PM »
I'm with you on the 2 mins at 400C - I'm super happy with the pizzas I'm getting in the 2-2.5 minute range and 370-400C. The main benefit is that I'm not getting any gum line and at least subjectively, it seems that the pizza is so much more digestible without any gumminess.

Yes!  I think I'm finally getting a handle on some things.

1. If you develop too much gluten you get a chewy pizza.

2. You need to balance heat, cooking time and hydration?  That is to say that the hydration level needs to match the cooking temperature and time.  For a higher hydration rate, you need a longer cooking time which leads to using a lower temperature?  Otherwise you risk getting a gum line or a gummy pizza? I suppose that it also depends a bit on the toppings of the pizza?

I assume that as you are making canotto. you are interested in higher hydration levels for more oven spring, still you need to balance that with temperature and cooking time?
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline DoouBall

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My Road To Napoli
« Reply #174 on: August 22, 2019, 08:30:58 PM »
Yes, that’s pretty much it. A couple of notes - I found that if I add salt in the last minute in my spiral mixer, then excess chewiness tends to go away. This has been the case using flour all the way up to 13.5% protein. If I overmix slightly then the worst thing that happens is that the dough balls are harder to open, but the final product is still not overly chewy and the lower temp I need to use to avoid overcooking the outside before the inside is done. I would definitely agree that the higher the hydration, the longer I have to wait to cook the pizza through and avoid the gum line. I would not use 70%+ hydration for styles other than canotto - it’s harder to work with and unless you’re shooting for a higher rim with large open holes, I think the 60-65% range is better.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 03:02:14 AM by DoouBall »

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Offline Icelandr

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #175 on: August 22, 2019, 11:34:09 PM »
While I agree there is not great “purpose”  in 70% hydration, it is a range that can be accomplished with “regular” methods and ingredients. The balance between effort and hydration is a dance best decided by the partners, a look at Antilife’s posts shows high hydration without the preferments I believe show what traditional methods can accomplish. We all need to try as many variations and types as possible so we can all learn, - keep investigating and posting. Having messed with 70% dough, I will settle on lower hydrations and work on other aspects.
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Offline DoouBall

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My Road To Napoli
« Reply #176 on: August 22, 2019, 11:47:42 PM »
Icelandr, not sure I understand what you’re saying. What do you consider “regular methods and ingredients”, and “traditional” and what do you mean when you say “a dance best decided by the partners”?

Offline Heikjo

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #177 on: August 23, 2019, 02:43:26 AM »
Topping heavy can be a reason. I thought about having a light screen, lot from below, put the skin on it and take a photo og the pattern. Then after baking I take a photo of the bottom of the pie to see if the pattern matches.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #178 on: August 23, 2019, 06:36:28 AM »
Yes, that’s pretty much it. A couple of notes - I found that if I add salt in the last minute in my spiral mixer, then excess chewiness tends to go away. This has been the case using flour all the way up to 13.5% protein. If I overmix slightly then the worst thing that happens is that the dough balls are harder to open, but the final product is still not overly chewy and the lower temp I need to use to avoid overcooking the outside before the inside is done. I would definitely agree that the higher the hydration, the longer I have to wait to cook the pizza through and avoid the gum line. I would not use 70%+ hydration for styles other than canotto - it’s harder to work with and unless you’re shooting for a higher rim with large open holes, I think the 60-65% range is better.

Using a spiral mixer is new to me, so I'm still experimenting..  Though lately I've done it like this.  First I dissolve the salt, then add the yeast and let that turn at minimum speed  (68 rpm) for 5 minutes.  This is because I'm trying to emulate the Da Michele dough and as far as I can tell they do this.  Supposedly it changes the dough characteristics, though I'm not sure about that.  I ought to make the same dough twice (one with early and the other with late salt) to see if there is any truth to this..  This autumn I suppose :)

Then I add all the flour, let it run at minimum for 5 minutes, 15 minutes pause and finally a few turns at minimum, then I put it away for bulk just like that, no S/F, no shaping and tightening the skin, etc.  At this point the dough is quite rough but has come together, it removes as one piece from the mixer and leaves the bowl more or less clean.  The gluten hasn't formed very long strings yet, so you can pull pieces off it without the dough stretching very much.

This seems to work fairly well and I can't say that it's really chewy.  Maybe my hand mixed dough was slightly softer, but it's really not a big difference.  24 hours later I find a very nice plastic dough that passes a window pane test with no problem at all.

I also find 60-65% hydration a nice range for use with Caputo pizzeria.  Though I plan to make a few experiments below 60% to see what changes..  Did that a long time ago, but I can't really remember my conclusions and in the meantime my skills have improved so probably a good idea to revisit it at some point.
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: My Road To Napoli
« Reply #179 on: August 23, 2019, 06:50:26 AM »
While I agree there is not great “purpose”  in 70% hydration, it is a range that can be accomplished with “regular” methods and ingredients. The balance between effort and hydration is a dance best decided by the partners, a look at Antilife’s posts shows high hydration without the preferments I believe show what traditional methods can accomplish. We all need to try as many variations and types as possible so we can all learn, - keep investigating and posting. Having messed with 70% dough, I will settle on lower hydrations and work on other aspects.

Hi, I'm also not quite sure what you want to say here.  Sure everyone does as they like and experimentation is a good thing, how would we learn otherwise?  Also not to forget that it's always a matter of taste and that is something personal.  And I agree Antilife makes very beautiful pizza!  I'm always amazed and happy to see his results.

The point I was trying to express (and ask DoouBall about) is that the hydration, cooking time and cooking temperature are somewhat related due to simple physics.  A higher hydration means that you need to let more water evaporate before the pizza is done, this in turn leads to a longer cooking time, which leads to having to use a lower cooking temperature, otherwise you risk either to burn the pizza or a gummy or raw tasting result.  Still a matter of taste, but I think this is just a fundamental principle.  At least it's one of my current theories, which of course could be false :)
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

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