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Author Topic: The Doughs of My Life  (Read 51433 times)

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2018, 09:06:51 AM »
I didn't mean the ambient temperature, but the temperature of the doughs when you open them.

Ah, gotcha! Thanks.

Looking forward to see the results from your test. What oven do you have and at what temperature?

I have a Vesuvio FVR100. Here she is when I fired her up for the first time this sping (a little sooty from last years run, but she's all cleaned up again now).

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2018, 09:19:28 AM »
As I strive to make NP pizza with a dough/crust that more closely resembles what I (from my current point of view) consider the golden standard for Pizza Napolitana (read: Sorbillo), I designed a small experiment that hopefully can give me some concrete pointers going forward.

This particular experiment was inspired by feedback from pizzadaheim a few posts back. In addition, I aim to control the oven temperature to match as closely as possible the temperatures reported by Craig for his 45 second bakes.

Main Purpose
Evaluate how the time in balls affects handling of a high hydration dough.

Secondary Purpose
Try to determine whether a dough of higher hydration than previously attempted takes me closer to the pillowy dreaminess of the Sorbillo experience.  :drool:

Recipe
The recipe assumes 24 hour fermentation @ 23 C, which is the ambient temperature in my house these days (unusually warm for this time of the year in Norway, by the way). I always use Craigís chart to determine the SD amount. This year my culture has been rather weak so I opted to double the predicted amount, which is about the average compensation factor needed the last few bakes.

The ingredients, then:
  • Water (tap water from Lommedalen): 68%
  • Salt (Jozo blue): 2.8%
  • SD (Ischia): 3.0%
  • Flour (Caputo Pizzeria): 100%

Procedure
  • Combine water and salt and mix well.
  • Culture goes in, mix it well.
  • 2/3 of the flour is added and quickly mixed.
  • Put on the Kenwood mixer at lowest speed for 3 minutes.
  • Gradually add rest of flour over the next 3 minutes.
  • Knead until somewhat stiff.
  • Stretch and fold a few times.
  • Rest 10 minutes.
  • Stretch and fold a few times.
  • Rest 10 minutes.
  • Cover and let it ferment.

Setup
Prepare two identical doughs, A and B.
  • For dough A, use a fermentation schedule of 12 hours in bulk + 12 hours in balls.
  • For dough B, use a fermentation schedule of 20 hours in bulk + 4 hours in balls.

Iíll report back with results shortly.

Offline pizzadaheim

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2018, 10:29:23 AM »
Keep your eyes on dough balls. Its very hot. Maybe you dont have to wait 4 hours. Give it a try after 3 hours

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2018, 01:44:43 PM »
Keep your eyes on dough balls. Its very hot. Maybe you dont have to wait 4 hours. Give it a try after 3 hours

True words! :chef:

As planned, dough A was balled after 12 hours of bulk fermentation. At this point, there was little or no visible raise. About 16 hours into the fermentation, it became clear that this dough would be ready earlier than scheduled, so I decided to ball dough B at the 17 hour mark, expecting them both to be ready about 4 hours later. After 3.5 hours, I decided it was good to go.

Thus, the final fermentation schedules were:
  • Dough A: 12+8.5 hours
  • Dough B: 17+3.5 hours

Temperature measurements before the first pizza was launched showed:
  • Deck: 448 C (= 838 F)
  • Wall farthest from the fire: 541 C (=1006 F)

The Bake
I already have some experience with 67% hydration, and it is a challenge to me. When deciding on 68% for this experiment, I was prepared for the worst. And during balling, I did experience the wettest, stickiest balls to date. I was stubbornly holding back on the bench flour, though, to prevent ďnegative hydration creepĒ.

When it came time to stretch the dough, I dumped the first ball (from batch A) into a heap of flour and flipped it gently to insure a (hopefully) thin protective layer of flour. Pressing down on it and starting to form it, I noticed it was soft, yet firm, not at all as fragile as I had expected it to be. I must have done "something" right this time around: This dough was easier to work with than any of my previous 67% batches!  ??? (I made only two balls per batch this time, normally I never go below 6 -- perhaps my workflow coincidentally is a better match for this smaller batch size?)

Anyway. I had no problems stretching, dressing, launching and finishing batch A. Iíll include some details and pictures in a later post.

Batch B, the one with only 3.5 hours in balls, was in many regards similar to batch A, i.e. it was soft and delicate. And while batch A was by no means fragile, it did require a gentle touch. Dough B was noticeably firmer, and just as pizzadaheim said, it responded well to some slapping around. Which is great, because I need to get that excess flour off somehow!

While I had been expecting this, I was apparently not prepared for the level of handling this dough could endure. I am used to applying the softest of touches, which actually made the first pizza I made with dough B too small and not thin enough.

The second B-pie was better as I quickly, and might I add happily, caught up with the situation.  ;D

Interpretation
With respect to the stated main purpose of this experiment, evaluating how the time in balls affects handling of a high hydration dough, it is pretty clear to me that this particular high hydration dough was much easier to handle when it was cooked a short time after balling. Clearly this is not news to this forum, but at least now Iíve learned it first hand. That was great! :)

I just came to remember an old post where Schold (i think) suggested that shorter time in balls also helps grow the cornicione. I think I noticed this as well in this case. Iím not claiming that it certainly did, as there may be variations in my stretching, temperature fluctuations and possibly other factors that play a part. But the cornicione of the B-batch pizzas did come out noticeably bigger and fluffier than the A-batch pizzas, so I find it plausible.

The "secondary purpose" of this experiment was to try and determine whether a dough of higher hydration than my previous attempts would take me closer to the pillowy dreaminess of the Sorbillo experience.

It sure did!

Wow. 1% made a world of difference. Iím hooked. I'll stick with 68% for a while now. My next pizza party is coming up this Saturday, and I will repeat this dough and see if I can repeat the success too.

Thanks for all the tips and help you all have graciously provided, Iím stoked by what I have learned from this exchange already.

Iíll add some more photos shortly.

Arne
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 05:14:16 PM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline jvp123

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #24 on: May 28, 2018, 01:46:52 PM »
True words! :chef:

As planned, dough A was balled after 12 hours of bulk fermentation. At this point, there was little or no visible raise. About 16 hours into the fermentation, it became clear that this dough would be ready earlier than scheduled, so I decided to ball dough B at the 17 hour mark, expecting them both to be ready about 4 hours later. After 3.5 hours, I decided it was good to go.

Thus, the final fermentation schedules were:
  • Dough A: 12+8.5 hours
  • Dough B: 17+3.5 hours

Temperature measurements before the first pizza was launched showed:
  • Deck: 448 C (= 838 F)
  • Wall farthest from the fire: 541 C (=1006 F)

The Bake
I already have some experience with 67% hydration, and it is a challenge to me. When deciding on 68% for this experiment, I was prepared for the worst. And during balling, I did experience the wettest, stickiest balls to date. I was stubbornly holding back on the bench flour, though, to prevent ďnegative hydration creepĒ.

When it came time to stretch the dough, I dumped the first ball (from batch A) into a heap of dough and flipped it gently so insure a (hopefully) thin protective layer of flour. Pressing down on it and starting to form it, I noticed it was soft, yet firm, not at all as fragile as I had expected it to be. I must have done "something" right this time around: This dough was easier to work with than any of my previous 67% batches!  ??? (I made only two balls per batch this time, normally I never go below 6 -- perhaps my workflow coincidentally is a better match for this smaller batch size?)

Anyway. I had no problems stretching, dressing, launching and finishing batch A. Iíll include some details and pictures in a later post.

Batch B, the one with only 3.5 hours in balls, was in many regards similar to batch A, i.e. it was soft and delicate. And while batch A was by no means fragile, it did require a gentle touch. Dough B was noticeably firmer, and just as pizzadaheim said, it responded well to some slapping around. Which is great, because I need to get that excess flour off somehow!

While I had been expecting this, I was apparently not prepared for the level of handling this dough could endure. I am used to applying the softest of touches, which actually made the first pizza I made with dough B too small and not thin enough.

The second B-pie was better as I quickly, and might I add happily, caught up with the situation.  ;D

Interpretation
With respect to the stated main purpose of this experiment, evaluating how the time in balls affects handling of a high hydration dough, it is pretty clear to me that this particular high hydration dough was much easier to handle when it was cooked a short time after balling. Clearly this is not news to this forum, but at least now Iíve learned it first hand. That was great! :)

I just came to remember an old post where Schold (i think) suggested that shorter time in balls also helps grow the cornicione. I think I noticed this as well in this case. Iím not claiming that it certainly did, as there may be variations in my stretching, temperature fluctuations and possibly other factors that play a part. But the cornicione of the B-batch pizzas did come out noticeably bigger and fluffier than the A-batch pizzas, so I find it plausible.

The "secondary purpose" of this experiment was to try and determine whether a dough of higher hydration than my previous attempts would take me closer to the pillowy dreaminess of the Sorbillo experience.

It sure did!

Wow. 1% made a world of difference. Iím hooked. I'll stick with 68% for a while now. My next pizza party is coming up this Saturday, and I will repeat this dough and see if I can repeat the success too.

Thanks for all the tips and help you all have graciously provided, Iím stoked by what I have learned from this exchange already.

Iíll add some more photos shortly.

Arne

Pretty pies!  :chef:
Jeff

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #25 on: May 28, 2018, 01:53:31 PM »
Here are some photos from today's session. The pizzas were all much more tender than I am used to.  :drool:

Dough A
The first three pictures below are made from dough A. The first one was cooked for 56 seconds, the second one for 53 seconds.

Dough B
The final 4 pictures are made from dough B, 45 and 60 seconds respectively.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2018, 02:00:46 PM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline pizzadaheim

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #26 on: May 28, 2018, 02:02:50 PM »
Looks great. Another tip if you want to clone sorbillo pizza. Open your dough balls 30cm. After topping pull it to the peel and stretch it to 35cm. I noticed at sorbillo that they dont care about big puffy cornicione.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #27 on: May 28, 2018, 02:10:25 PM »
Great looking pies! I plan to experiment with higher hydration myself, so these are interesting to read.

You mentioned the consistency and fluffiness, but what about flavor? Did you notice any difference compared to your usual crust? Hydration makes a difference on texture, but for flavor I guess fermentation schedule and baking matters more. You mentioned not noticing a difference between 24h and 48h before, but it might be worth a few more attempts, if it fits your schedule.

When it comes to the time of balling, am I correct to assume that the fermentation schedule matters here? That you could do a shorter time in balls with a 24h dough than 48h since there's less yeast/starter in a 48h dough and more will happen over 4 hours in a 24h dough. I've often seen 8-12 hours mentioned from people using 48h doughs, and some not wanting it to be shorter than 8 hours. Could that mean a 4 hour balling stage with a 24h dough would be a good time and be somewhat in the same area as 8 hours for 48h dough?

How do you handle the dough when balling from bulk? Do you cut off a piece and gently ball it together, or do you knead it, fold it or stretch it in some way?
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #28 on: May 29, 2018, 12:59:45 AM »
Pretty pies!  :chef:

Thank you very much. :)

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #29 on: May 29, 2018, 01:07:57 AM »
Looks great. Another tip if you want to clone sorbillo pizza. Open your dough balls 30cm. After topping pull it to the peel and stretch it to 35cm. I noticed at sorbillo that they dont care about big puffy cornicione.

Thanks. :) Great tip!

I must confess that I have developed a thing for big puffy corniciones recently. That was another takeaway from my trip, actually: I want to work on my cornicione. I had expected Carlo Sammarco to deliver fat tires, but actually Pepe one-upped Sammarco! At Pepe's, the cornicione was probably 4-5 cm i diameter, it was huge! The Sammarco pizzas we had were actually not as exaggerated as the ones I've seen online. Perhaps we were early and the dough was not 100% ready, idk...

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #30 on: May 29, 2018, 01:31:11 AM »
You mentioned the consistency and fluffiness, but what about flavor? Did you notice any difference compared to your usual crust? Hydration makes a difference on texture, but for flavor I guess fermentation schedule and baking matters more. You mentioned not noticing a difference between 24h and 48h before, but it might be worth a few more attempts, if it fits your schedule.

I may have focused a bit too one-sidedly on the consistency in this thread. Perhaps that's because I usually think the flavour of the crust is very good. I prefer the taste of SD to the taste of IDY, and I notice that 48 hours fermentation produces more/fuller flavour than does 24 hours. (I am not sure I see any difference in the consistency of the resulting pizza however). However, when I do long fermentations (48 hours), it sometimes ends up a little too tangy for my taste.

Speaking of taste and smell: One of my favourite moments when making pizza is the scent that emanates from the oven during the bake of the first few pizzas. Before my brain has adapted and ignore the scents, I notice this... I don't have the English vocabulary to express this properly, but I get this very fragrant, smokey, slightly charred scent that goes straight to the happiness center of my brain.  :D
 
I had to wiggle a bit before settling on 2.8% salt, as not everybody in the household agree on this variable. :-D

Even more than the taste of the crust itself, I have been focusing on the taste of the topping ingredients, especially the tomatoes. I have a long way to go to perfect this part of the pizza as well. But I guess that's a different story. :)


When it comes to the time of balling, am I correct to assume that the fermentation schedule matters here? That you could do a shorter time in balls with a 24h dough than 48h since there's less yeast/starter in a 48h dough and more will happen over 4 hours in a 24h dough. I've often seen 8-12 hours mentioned from people using 48h doughs, and some not wanting it to be shorter than 8 hours. Could that mean a 4 hour balling stage with a 24h dough would be a good time and be somewhat in the same area as 8 hours for 48h dough?

Before my last experiment, I had never gone below 8 hours in balls, and that was for a 24 hour dough. I too have had the impression that 8 hours was needed to get more relaxation. I have also been wary of balling the dough after a considerable rise, because I though that might expel precious air. I may need to rethink this.

Edit: Sorry I don't think I answered your actual questions. At this point I think that it is possible to do short time in balls no matter the total length of the fermentation. Given that you start with less yeast/culture the longer the fermentation, I would speculate that the last 4 hours of a 24 hour dough might be roughly equivalent to the last 4 hours of a 48 hour dough. In some respects at least? But honestly, I do not know. I will keep testing things out, though. Meanwhile, perhaps someone more knowledgable can chime in. :)

How do you handle the dough when balling from bulk? Do you cut off a piece and gently ball it together, or do you knead it, fold it or stretch it in some way?

Yes, I cut it in 260 g pieces and ball it by folding it in on itself. I try to mimic what I see the pizzaioli of Naples do it. (The actual balling action i mean) In my mind, what I end up doing is probably an "in the air" stretch and fold until it firms up somewhat.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2018, 01:53:55 AM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline deb415611

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #31 on: May 29, 2018, 07:19:58 AM »
very nice
Deb

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #32 on: May 29, 2018, 03:40:50 PM »

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #33 on: June 03, 2018, 05:16:39 AM »
The Success

The dough I made for my last test batch, detailed in reply 23 of this thread, was by far the best dough I had ever made -- especially with respect to tenderness and handling. When the balls were shaped into discs, it was as if the dough was guiding my hands and told them how to move. The transfer to the peel was effortless, as if the dough drove itself onto it. Out of the oven, it came super soft and tender, fragrant and flavorful.

Obviously, I set myself up for failure when I decided to repeat this exact same dough for yesterdayís pizza party.

The Failure

It was a horrible mess. This was a completely different experience, a sticky mess of epic proportions.

The first three pizzas tore apart completely on the way to the peel.

In a state of panic, I frantically drenched the bancone in flour. Now at least I was able to finish a few pies, but it was still a struggle. Lifting the dough, even before any flattening had been done, was nearly impossible without stretching it heavily in the process. The dough seemed to want to slip through my fingers and run away in all directions at once. Needless to say, I was not able to form them properly. They all ended up too thick, too small and too powdery-white from excess flour. But at least I managed to bake pizza with the remaining balls (save for one that failed during launch after a futile attempt at backing off the flour somewhat).

Elongated and completely bent out of shape, but pizza.

The Setup

Seriously, this dough come out from the fermentation pre-digested. And that is probably not far from the truth. For practical reasons, I had made someÖ ermÖ changes. It was a 48 hour dough @ 18 C controlled temp this time around. And it was an "undercover" split batch experiment.

My intention was to repeat the dough from reply 23 as best as I could, but where one batch (A) was made with SD starter fed 12 hours before the mixing, and another similar batch (B) made with the same amount of SD starter fed just 3 hours before the mixing. They would both be balled 4 hours before the bake.

I wanted to test this out because my SD culture is difficult to predict this year. Also, we are experiencing exceptionally hot weather here now. The kitchen, where I keep the starter, has been reaching 30 C during the hottest part of the day this past week. Perhaps I should feed it twice a day instead of just once, and so I thought I could test how that might affect the performance.

Oh, and one more thing. When making the dough for the B-batch, I stopped adding flour a little earlier than planned. The dough had just come together beautifully, and clearly I was a high hydration dough wizard, so no problems there. Batch B, therefore, ended up at 70.3% hydration. Genius!

The Fermentation

I do bulk fermentation in bowls wrapped in transparent cling film. In addition, I use a pluviometer to track the rise ("Spia di lievitazioneĒ technique as explained in the book "Pizza Napolitana", I believe forum member Fagilia is one of the authors). This time around, I used a temperature controlled chest freezer to keep the temperature steady at the target temp. Iíve attached a photo of the setup below.

Unfortunately I was away for most of the fermentation, so I was not able to track and adjust along the way but had to rely on the SD calculations to be accurate. However, when I finally returned home, some 14 hours before the target bake time, it was almost ready to go! Below I attach two photos of the pluviometers as they were 14 hours before the pizza party. Batch A had reached the 25 mm mark, while Batch B was slower and had almost reached 21 mm. The typical range where I do my normal bakes is around 25-35 mm.

Of course, no guests had arrived yet. I was at a loss but lowered the temperature 1 C, crossed my fingers and went to bed.

The Lesson

Failing is humbling, which in itself is a good lesson.

Looking back at this experience, maybe there is more to learn.

First off, dough B was developing/rising slower than dough A. If this is purely a function of the time since feeding, then apparently the ďhungrierĒ the culture, the faster the rise. Or it could just be that there were more yeast cells in the ďAĒ culture than the ďBĒ culture because of longer time exposed to food.

Whatever the reason, more interestingly and somewhat unexpectedly, the B-batch (at ~70% hydration) was easier to handle than the A-batch (at 68%). This took me by surprise, because I was sure that the wettest dough would be the most difficult to handle. While this may be true, all other things being equal, it was not true here. But then, all other things were not equal! Dough A was more overfermented than dough B.

In this case, then, perhaps a too long fermentation may actually have been the biggest problem, and not the hydration level.

The last picture attached below shows the pluviometers at the time of bake. They almost climbed out the top, this is way way too much rise.

The Plan
 
This has inspired me to conduct some more test with fermentation times. Iím thinking perhaps I should make a batch of dough, ball it, and then every hour take out one ball, shape it and evaluate its properties relative to the fermentation time and rise in the pluviometer. That would be a very interesting excercise I think.

Iíll follow up more on that later. Come Friday, Iíll have 30+ guests over for pizza, so I guess itís back to the safe zone for a while now.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 06:36:00 AM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline Icelandr

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2018, 11:10:58 AM »
Thank you for the continued experiments and descriptions! I hope I, too can learn from them, the previous set of pies looked incredible, apparently it is best at this point, to remember them, not the last batch.


I enjoy your thread, you are far more organized than I, perhaps wing it is spoken more frequently here on Gabriola.


From Paros island -Greg
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2018, 12:17:59 PM »
Greg, thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. I appreciate it very much.

I guess I am rather organized and structured in how I approach pizzamaking. I like to think that it allows me to learn how the different variables affect the result. My wife likes to tease me for this. The precise measurements. The procedure. The detailed logs. When she cooks or bakes, it is almost always by feel. (And she usually nails it.)

For all my systematic ways, though, I am more than capable of making a chaos come bake time.  :-D

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2018, 11:32:48 AM »
The dough I made for the first experiment I documented in this thread turned out wonderful! In fact: My best dough. Ever.

Sadly, I have not been able to reproduce it since.  :(

Said experiment was primarily designed to learn first hand what effect shorter time in balls had on the handling properties of the dough. The main finding was that shorter time in balls resulted in a more elastic dough. This is in line with what others have reported, and still seems to hold to me. However, I may have drawn some more questionable conclusions.

For example, I speculated that the hydration level (68%, up from my usual 65-67%) might be responsible for the perfect handling properties I experienced. I no longer believe this to be the case. I have repeated the exact same recipe a few times, and it behaves more like the typical dough I make. Nothing special.

Perhaps the dough mixing procedure was more optimal than usual, I speculated further. I am still open to this possibility.

However, there is another and perhaps more important factor: Fermentation. Perhaps the fermentation was just right. Could it be that I happened to hit the nail on the head and start baking at the perfect time -- when the dough had reached perfect maturation?

The following experiment was performed in an attempt to answer this last question.

Purpose
A subjective evaluation of how the "handling properties" of the same dough changes during the course of fermentation/maturation. When is it at its optimal, and what does that mean?

By "handling properties" I mean how the dough ball reacts to shaping, stretching and dragging to the peel (primarily dough strength I guess).

Recipe
Caputo Pizzeria (100%)
Water (68%)
SD (3,0%)
Salt (2,8%)

Ferment at stable ambient temperature, 23 C. 11 hours in bulk, the remaining time in balls (see below).

Procedure
Same dough making procedure as the one documented in reply 21 in this thread.

Experimental setup
Let the dough ferment in bulk for 11 hours. Then ball and let rest for 7 hours. At the 18 hour mark, perform the following steps:

  • Pull one panetto from the dough box. Note the level in the pluviometer.
  • Shape it into a disc on the bancone. Evaluate: How does it feel?
  • Add topping (I used 200 grams of uncooked pasta, simple and reusable).
  • Pull the "pizza" onto the peel. Evaluate: How does it perform?

Repeat the steps above once every hour until not able to continue.

I was not able to bake these pies, unfortunately, so oven performance and taste is not part of the evaluation.


Results
I took a total of six samples over a period of five hours (from the 18 hour mark up until the 23 hour mark).

In each case, the dough presented as quite soft, malleable and extensible. In addition, I noted the following:

  • 18 h (25.0 mm): Seems a little fragile during transfer to peel. I had to be very gentle to prevent tears (as in "rips", I never cry when I make pizza).
  • 19 h (26.5 mm): Still soft and fragile, best handled with care. Ripped during one of the two transfer tests, caused by a "stray finger".
  • 20 h (29.5 mm): Actually seems a little more robust at this point, as if slightly stronger. No rips/tears.
  • 21 h (32.5 mm): Handles well. I think it is stronger than ever. I believe I could have cooked these with good results.
  • 22 h (35.5 mm): Starting to see larger bubbles forming on the cornicione when I stretch the dough. If left unpopped, they would form large empty voids and/or black spots during cooking. Noticeably softer and more extensible than last time. Also slightly weaker than before, but not by much.
  • 23 h (38.0 mm): Even larger bubbles forming during stretching. And weaker. At this point it is quite obvious that the dough is in decline. I needed to be very careful and attentive to prevent ripping and tearing.


Discussion

I thought I noticed that the dough gained strength the first 3-4 hours. This surprised me somewhat, until I remembered that Iíve read multiple times on this forum that long fermentations give strength to the dough. So one could argue it is bias. Real or not, that is what my notes say.

I also noticed that the dough lost strength during the last two hours. This did not surprise me, as I have some experience with severely over fermented dough (e.g. reply 33 of this thread).

Craigs SD table predicts 21 hours fermentation for 3% SD at 23 C. Thatís pretty close to 22 hours, which is what I subjectively experienced as the optimal point in this case. I love that table!

Unfortunately: At no point during this experiment did I experience the "perfect consistency" that I reported on in reply 23. For now, therefore, I tentatively conclude that "optimal fermentation" was not the main cause for that particular success.


Final thoughts

I keep thinking about the mixing procedure, which I have suspected could be a big factor for a while. Perhaps I need to mix the dough in a more appropriate manner? My happy coincidence of a perfect dough (reply 23) felt considerably more voluminous than this dough at the same weight (260 grams). Could it be that I had more air trapped inside, perhaps?

The investigation continues...
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 01:05:11 PM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline Icelandr

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2018, 03:32:14 PM »
YIKES!
Keep that up! It reminds me of Omid, and his continual research, of course well documented . . . Regrettably we random abstract learn differently in surprising ways . . . ďOh, look, it worked!Ē Iíll do that again!
I enjoy the thread and will maliciously steal your ideas when I get back!
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Offline robvst1987

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #38 on: June 12, 2018, 04:46:47 AM »
Nice work and very very interesting!

I was wondering how they manage to do the short time in balls at sorbillo (or other restaurant), if they ball there dough they don't know when they are going to bake it..

Also the slap and fold part, for them it's not possible to do this because there batches are to big and I think they don't have the time for it.

Have you ever tried to work with autolyse? I think the key of a good dough is in there.. I've seen a lot of video's of Carlo Sammarco,  Vincenzo Onnembo they al work with autolyse or a preferment. On PM I've seen also beautiful result with it (Gsans and Dacamo).

Offline DannyG

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #39 on: June 12, 2018, 08:39:01 AM »
I did a search for "sorbillo dough recipe" and found two recipes.

The first showed 1 liter of water for 1850 grams of flour. This is 54% using a kg (1,000 grams) as a weight for 1 liter of water.
http://www.lucianopignataro.com/articolo.php?pl=4572

The second was 300 grams water for 500 grams of flour. This is 60%.
http://buonappetitoolandablog.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-make-pizza-recipe-from-gino.html

I have never been successful with high hydration doughs (over 62%) as they are way too hard to handle for me.

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