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Author Topic: The Doughs of My Life  (Read 31839 times)

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #40 on: June 12, 2018, 12:26:11 PM »


I enjoy the thread and will maliciously steal your ideas when I get back!

Sounds good! Looking forward to it. :)

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #41 on: June 12, 2018, 12:31:59 PM »
Hi!

Also the slap and fold part, for them it's not possible to do this because there batches are to big and I think they don't have the time for it.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but do you mean to say they don't stretch and fold after mixing? If so I guess you're right.

Have you ever tried to work with autolyse? I think the key of a good dough is in there.. I've seen a lot of video's of Carlo Sammarco,  Vincenzo Onnembo they al work with autolyse or a preferment. On PM I've seen also beautiful result with it (Gsans and Dacamo).

Not really, all I've done are some preliminary tests. They seem to indicate that autolyse strengthens the dough considerably. This is something I'll be testing out more for sure!

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #42 on: June 12, 2018, 12:37:44 PM »
I did a search for "sorbillo dough recipe" and found two recipes.

The first showed 1 liter of water for 1850 grams of flour. This is 54% using a kg (1,000 grams) as a weight for 1 liter of water.
http://www.lucianopignataro.com/articolo.php?pl=4572

The second was 300 grams water for 500 grams of flour. This is 60%.
http://buonappetitoolandablog.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-make-pizza-recipe-from-gino.html


Thanks for the links!

Yeah, that is pretty much the same I've found too when googling for that recipe. However I am not so sure this is the actual recipe that they use, and  pizzadaheim shared some insight previously in this thread that supports a "higher hydration hypothesis". :-D

Perhaps the published ones are adapted for "home use" or something? Idk. Having seen the dough "live", at least, it really does appear much wetter than that.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:44:21 PM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline Heikjo

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #43 on: June 13, 2018, 06:55:20 AM »
You might find more results if you Google in Italian. I found this video when searching for "impasto pizza sorbillo":



I don't know Italian, so I can't tell what's said in the video though.

The difference you found in their dough might also come from other various factors, including ingredients, fermentation, oven temp etc.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #44 on: June 13, 2018, 09:47:27 AM »
Heikjo, Thanks for sharing!

The video starts out by Gino saying: "Per fare un impasto per la pizza tipica napolitana noi ce la portiamo sempre al'acqua. Partendo con un litro di acqua noi mettiamo circa un chilo e sette, un chilo sette chinquanta di farina 00."

Basically, start with one liter of water and add 1700-1750 grams of 00-flour. Which translates to about 58% hydration.

Like you say, there are lots of factors indeed!  :-D  I'll try to eat this elephant one piece at a time. Although I wish I could experiment with the mixing procedure, which I find myself think about more and more, I am not yet sure how to design an experiment for this. So next up for me I guess will be autolysis. That's a fun subject that seems to be at least a little controversial. :-)

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #45 on: June 13, 2018, 09:57:29 AM »
Have you ever tried to work with autolyse? I think the key of a good dough is in there.. I've seen a lot of video's of Carlo Sammarco,  Vincenzo Onnembo they al work with autolyse or a preferment. On PM I've seen also beautiful result with it (Gsans and Dacamo).

Thanks for bringing Gsans to my attention. Somehow I must have missed those posts.  ??? Beautiful pizza! And fun with autolysis.

I remember seeing the works of DaCaMo. Also stunning! But I think the most recent recipe there was super high hydration, like 75% iirc.


Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2018, 12:03:59 PM »
Recap & Review

I started this thread with one goal in mind: Figure out how to get the same tenderness in the crust that I experienced at Sorbillo. I proposed a number of possible factors and got some interesting feedback. Some experiments have been conducted, and although the first experiment somehow got me surprisingly close to the dough I am searching for, I cannot reproduce this and I have yet to understand precisely what happened there.

I guess I’m back to square one.  ???

The Hydration Hypothesis

I think high hydration is part of the equation, but I am far from sure of it. Though the mouth watering pies of Suzer, Antilife, Gsans and many others typically seem to be high hydration efforts, there are important exceptions. I keep coming back to Craigs pies at 62.5% hydration. They certainly look like what I think I’m after, and according to Craig himself they are tender as they come. And he is far from alone: Several users on this very forum swear by "AVPN style" dough at < 60% hydration and report excellent results, including tenderness. This makes me think twice about the importance of high hydration to achieve pillowy tenderness. But then again, I have not tasted these pizzas myself. Do we have the same reference point when we use the word "tenderness"? I am curious to know.  :chef:

The Fermentation Factor

I have run tests to see how a high hydration dough changes during fermentation. These tests were interesting. However, I found no clear indication that "perfect maturation" is the primary key to achieving my goal.  :-\

The Autolysis Advice

Autolysis has been discussed briefly, and I considered experimenting with this. However, realizing that autolysis was not a factor that one time when I came so close to my goal, I have decided to put the hydrolysis experiment plans on hold for a while.

Mixing Magic?

I now have a (vague) idea that I need to incorporate more air in the dough during mixing, and that I need to ensure that the gluten network is sufficiently developed to hold on to that air during fermentation.

Face Forward

This week-end I decided to run an experiment where I made three doughs:
  • Dough A: Low hydration dough at 63% water.
  • Dough B: High hydration dough at 68% water.
  • Dough C: High hydration dough at 68% water made 100% by hand.

Doughs A and B were mixed and prepared primarily with the aid of my Kenwood mixer (as described in reply 22). Dough C was mixed and kneaded by hand as best I can after techniques learned from various You Tube videos (with Roberto Caporuscio, Gino Sorbillo, Ciro Salvo and others).

All three doughs were otherwise identical: 2.8% salt, 6% SD, ferment at 20 C for 23 hours (16+7).

The purpose of the experiment was twofold:
  • Compare the tenderness of two similar doughs with different hydration (63 vs 68), otherwise treated identically
  • Compare the handling and tenderness of two identical doughs, where one dough is prepared primarily using a Kenwood mixer, the other made 100% by hand.

Today’s Truth

I must confess that I may have been unrealistically ambitious when planning this experiment, considering that the pizzas would be cooked and served at one of the biggest pizza parties we are hosting this summer. I ended up spending a lot more time having fun with guests than I did collecting data. The quality of this experiment suffers from this fact, unfortunately. Sorry.

Final Fermentation

After fermenting for 23 hours, the pluviometers showed:
  • Dough A: 25.5 mm.
  • Dough B: 26.5 mm.
  • Dough C: 26.5 mm.
As previously discussed I prefer closer to around 30 mm, but since it would take me a few hours to bake the 36 doughs I had prepared, this seemed like the perfect time to kick things off.


Data Discussion
 
Dough A: It’s been a long time since I made a dough with just 63% water. It was great! From balling to baking, it felt great in my hands, and it was so easy to work with. Little or no need for bench flour, no fear of the tear, and all in all just a smooth experience. The balls felt a little smaller and more compact than the others. The taste was great though, and the cornicione was nice and puffy. The tenderness I’ll comment on below.

Dough B: Certainly a lot more difficult to handle than the A dough. But not problematically so. It was somewhat slacker and more fragile, but other than that, this is what I’m used to now, so I was fairly happy with it. The cornicione grew a little bigger than on the A pizzas, the pizza showed a little more… “visual flair”. Tenderness? Keep reading.

Dough C: Disappointingly similar to dough B. In fact, I could not tell them apart.

Tenderness… I would say that all three doughs were really very similar. None of them came even close to my own track record (you know the one…), not to mention Sorbillo. To put it another way, the were all on par with what I usually make. So I guess the hydration hypothesis is still inconclusive.

The mixing part of this experiment was a failure I guess. The hand made dough was practically identical with the Kenwood mixed one. Perhaps I'll find myself a spiral hook, I noticed heikjo mentioned this, and see if that makes a difference from the J hook that came with the machine...
« Last Edit: June 17, 2018, 12:43:49 PM by Arne_Jervell »

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2018, 12:56:13 PM »
Thank you for the informative post, AND the fact that fun at times interrupts science!
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Offline marcus13668

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2018, 02:09:26 PM »
Very fun thread. Nice job!

3 more things i could think of.
Maybe they ferment at a higher temperature.
And also, what flour do you use? Doesnt sorbillo use caputo tipo 0 biologica?

I would also try 1 hour bulk and The rest in balls. Their dough looks very relaxed.

Regards from Sweden!

Offline Heikjo

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2018, 03:11:30 PM »
Have you considered the baking as a factor? The Neapolitans bake very fast, and small changes in the baking process (time, temp, handling) can make significant results.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2018, 04:38:38 PM »
Thank you for the informative post, AND the fact that fun at times interrupts science!
Aye point taken. I am obsessing over details but ultimately what makes me able to do so is the number of times we have people over for pizza and socializing. Pizzamaking can be "nerdy" but it is also the most social hoby I could hope for.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2018, 04:43:52 PM »


Very fun thread. Nice job!

3 more things i could think of.
Maybe they ferment at a higher temperature.
And also, what flour do you use? Doesnt sorbillo use caputo tipo 0 biologica?

I would also try 1 hour bulk and The rest in balls. Their dough looks very relaxed.

Regards from Sweden!

Hey Marcus.

Thanks for pitching in. I like your suggestion about shorter time in balls. I have a fear that this will result in a very fragile dough, but how can I know untill I try it? Great idea, I'll do that and see.

About flour, I use Caputo Pizzeria. I have actually purchased 100 kg of the stuff this summer. I think I'll stick with that for now. :D It would be fun to switch it up though, and I just might next summer.

Fermentation temperature... Hm. Could be a factor indeed.....

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2018, 05:04:46 PM »


Have you considered the baking as a factor? The Neapolitans bake very fast, and small changes in the baking process (time, temp, handling) can make significant results.

Heikjo, yeah,  that may be a good point. Looking back at the pictures from my one lucky break I do notice a lighter crust.

But there has to be more. The "thick feeling" I had back then was very special indeed. I don't know how to describe this. The dough looked (and felt I think) heavy somehow, maybe a bit like this one at around the 50 second mark:

Don't know if that makes any sense. I'll see if I can come up with a better reference.

By the way: What is your experience with the spiral hool vs the J hook on your Kenwood mixer? :)


Offline Heikjo

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #53 on: June 18, 2018, 01:23:50 AM »
By the way: What is your experience with the spiral hool vs the J hook on your Kenwood mixer? :)
The spiral hook did a better job than the J hook (links to videos). Since I usually make one or two doughs, they always stick a bit to the hook and didn't get kneaded quite as well as a larger batch. I expect the spiral hook would have been even better with a larger batch. Since starting with sourdough pizzas, I don't use the mixer anymore, but from the attempts I had I would definitely recommend the spiral hook.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2018, 11:23:38 AM »
For years I have been chasing light, tender, fluffy crust - and one that stays that way even several minutes after baking. Due to all of the variables involved, every batch comes out differently and even every pizza within each batch is a little different. For the ingredients, procedure, and equipment I use, I can say unequivocally that the very best pizzas I make come from doughs that are 63%-66%+ hydration (I adjust with a spritzer as conditions warrant) and high deck temps (950F+). But there are other factors I think make an appreciable difference to achieve the optimal texture. This is what I've been doing lately with great results:

1) It is not just about final hydration. I think it does matter how the water is absorbed by the flour. I've adapted Marco's method of mixing the water and starter with 2/3 of the flour, allowing it to rest, and then adding the remaining flour and salt. It would seem that this shouldn't matter when doing long RT fermentation, but when I don't do it, the dough is not as tender.

2) I try to get as much air into the dough without overkneading (riposo step helps).


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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #55 on: June 19, 2018, 02:56:43 PM »
Bill, thank you for sharing this information. That is very interesting insight. I think I know what to try out next now... :)

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #56 on: June 19, 2018, 07:35:40 PM »
Bill, thank you for sharing this information. That is very interesting insight. I think I know what to try out next now... :)

One other thought: avoid overbaking if you want soft crust. In my experience at high temps, if it looks done, it is probably overdone. As crust edges darken, they absorb even more radiant heat from the fire/coal bed and can quickly overbake. 

Offline hotsawce

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2018, 10:05:15 AM »
Bill, how much starter are you using? And is that hydration number including the starter or is it just the water and then whatever starter amount you add.

It's interesting you bring up Marco's mixing method - It's actually how Ciro Salvo mixes (I posted a video in another thread.)

For years I have been chasing light, tender, fluffy crust - and one that stays that way even several minutes after baking. Due to all of the variables involved, every batch comes out differently and even every pizza within each batch is a little different. For the ingredients, procedure, and equipment I use, I can say unequivocally that the very best pizzas I make come from doughs that are 63%-66%+ hydration (I adjust with a spritzer as conditions warrant) and high deck temps (950F+). But there are other factors I think make an appreciable difference to achieve the optimal texture. This is what I've been doing lately with great results:

1) It is not just about final hydration. I think it does matter how the water is absorbed by the flour. I've adapted Marco's method of mixing the water and starter with 2/3 of the flour, allowing it to rest, and then adding the remaining flour and salt. It would seem that this shouldn't matter when doing long RT fermentation, but when I don't do it, the dough is not as tender.

2) I try to get as much air into the dough without overkneading (riposo step helps).

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2018, 01:53:24 PM »
Bill, how much starter are you using? And is that hydration number including the starter or is it just the water and then whatever starter amount you add.

It's interesting you bring up Marco's mixing method - It's actually how Ciro Salvo mixes (I posted a video in another thread.)

My bakers % calculations include water and flour in starter based on 100% starter hydration. I measure ingredients out for 62% total hydration, but that always increases with very liberal use of the spritzer throughout the process. I do live in a very dry climate. Maybe the two-step hydration/riposo workflow has something to do with damaged starch enzymatic degradation. Regardless, I'm convinced this procedure affects the tenderness of the final product.

Starter amount depends on which starter I'm using. For example, right now the Russian starter from sourdo.com is at bat. For pizza, it seems to prefer higher quantity at higher RT, for a shorter time than the others I use. So the batch I'm currently fermenting is at 8% starter, bulk ferment for 24 hours @ 70F. 

Offline mrmafix

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2018, 05:24:35 PM »


1) It is not just about final hydration. I think it does matter how the water is absorbed by the flour. I've adapted Marco's method of mixing the water and starter with 2/3 of the flour, allowing it to rest, and then adding the remaining flour and salt. It would seem that this shouldn't matter when doing long RT fermentation, but when I don't do it, the dough is not as tender.

2) I try to get as much air into the dough without overkneading (riposo step helps).

Bill,

Can you elaborate a bit more on the Marco method of mixing and why you use this method?  Thank you! 

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