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Author Topic: The Doughs of My Life  (Read 42012 times)

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Offline stefan

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #700 on: April 07, 2020, 06:48:10 PM »
Wow! Cornices looking soo fluffy! Looks like a great session! Funny that I made similar experiences with IDY. Somewhat unpredictable .. but - no fresh yeast in Germany at the moment, so we have to take what we get, right? :D

Offline Yael

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #701 on: April 07, 2020, 08:25:52 PM »
 :drool: :drool: :drool:
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Offline scott r

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #702 on: April 07, 2020, 11:33:20 PM »
really nice looking pies!

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #703 on: April 08, 2020, 07:44:18 AM »
Wow! Cornices looking soo fluffy! Looks like a great session! Funny that I made similar experiences with IDY. Somewhat unpredictable .. but - no fresh yeast in Germany at the moment, so we have to take what we get, right? :D

Thanks.  :) Yes, IDY has always been flaky in my hands. CY is hard to get by here, too. I'll just keep feeding my starter and hope it regains its strength soon.  :chef:

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #704 on: April 08, 2020, 07:47:36 AM »
Shorter time in balls has always given me better oven spring, but also more toughness in the cornicione. They look very nice. I like the way you cut the fior di latte.

Thanks, Schold. That is an interesting observation about shorter time in balls correlating with better oven spring. I must admit that just as I had finished writing my bullet point saying Petra gives great oven spring, I almost deleted it again, as it is almost certainly too early to draw such conclusions. 

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Offline sk

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #705 on: April 08, 2020, 11:17:36 AM »
It looks a little chilly but pleasant enough to make pizza in the sun Arne!  The family all looks happy to be outside having fun around the oven.  And, who is that guy looking over your wife's shoulder?  :-D 

I liked the picture of the pizza on the peel before going in the oven.  What are your dough ball weights?  How many cm is the pizza across in the picture?

We are all happy to see your oven open for business!!
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #706 on: April 08, 2020, 01:42:21 PM »


It looks a little chilly but pleasant enough to make pizza in the sun Arne!  The family all looks happy to be outside having fun around the oven.  And, who is that guy looking over your wife's shoulder?  :-D 

I liked the picture of the pizza on the peel before going in the oven.  What are your dough ball weights?  How many cm is the pizza across in the picture?

We are all happy to see your oven open for business!!

Scott, thanks for the thumbs up. Haha yeah you noticed "Bittelilleline", my younger son's tiny friend, looking out from the doorway. She's too big for his bed but has a reserved spot on the floor next to it.

The dough balls are 260 grams and are stretched to 30 cm/12 inches. The width of that wooden peel is 33.5 cm iirc.



Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #707 on: April 09, 2020, 05:20:55 PM »
Easter time and lamb is on the menu, but on the spur of the moment I was compelled to finally try my hands at biga. Ever since Alex (DoouBall) first posted his results last July, Ive been wanting to give it a go. I did not get around to it last year, unfortunately. But now, having time on my hands and seeing a lot of interesting biga related activity on this forum, it seemed like a good time to give it a shot.

Inspired by a suggestion recently made by Peter (Pete_da_Bayer), I was planning to ease into this by using my normal yeast calculations and making a biga from a certain percentage of the flour that I would normally use. But when I managed to source some fresh yeast, I changed my mind for some reason and decided to give the MasterBiga app a try instead.

(I was serious when I said lamb is on the menu, so this would be strictly an experiment. The purpose of this bake is basically to gain some experience with making biga and using biga for pizza.)

One thing that sticks out to me from the various reports about the use of biga, besides giving an improved flavor over straight dough made from yeast, is that it can result in a very pronounced cornicione. Having watched a few biga videos online, where the dough balls are much larger than my typical 260 grams, I was curious to see how the dough ball size would affect the outcome.

To test this, I made one dough, and from this dough I made balls of three different sizes: 260 grams (my normal), 300 grams and 330 grams.

With the aid of the MasterBig app, the plan was as follows:

Biga
  • 350 g flour (Caputo Nuvola Super)
  • 154 g water (44%)
  • 3.5 g CY (1%)
Fermentation: 16 hours at 21.7C.

Rinfresco
  • 710 g flour (Caputo Pizzeria)
  • 546 g water
  • 31 g salt
Fermentation: 5 hours at 21.7C.

Final dough
The resulting dough is at 66% hydration using 33% biga and a heck of a lot of yeast, compared to my usual routine.

Making the biga was fun and easy. I did it by hand and it took maybe 5 minutes, following the procedures suggested by helpful members in recent messages of other threads here.

Making the dough was easy too. I did what Jack (Amolapizza) suggested in Gregs (Icelandr) thread: I tore the biga in smaller pieces directly into the flour and let the Kenwood mix it together. Then I added about 2/3 of the water in one go, let it absorb and then added the remainder in 4 or 5 additions. Salt was added about 4 minutes before the end of my mix. In total, the dough was on the hook for 11 minutes. Then I dumped in on the counter and did some stretching and folding until the dough looked right.

I balled the dough after 2.5 hours (the plan was 30 minutes, but). The pluviometer accelerated real quick to a speed Ive never seen before, and after a total of 5 hours it showed 2.3x rise (35mm) And it kept zooming away almost as I watched.

Shaping
I started with the 260 gram balls. The dough was nice and soft but perhaps a little bit more elastic than normal. When stretched to my typical 30 cm, I noticed a significant diameter shrinkage in the oven. The cornicione, however, grew bigger than normal, and maybe this is part of the explanation.

Moving on the the 300 gram balls, it seemed the resulting pie radius was closer to normal, all the while with a significant cornicione.

The 330 gram ball felt huge, and it developed a thicker base than Im used to, even if I stretched it a bit larger than usual. This was very much appreciated by one of the members of my tasting panel, depicted below. In my own personal view, it was a bit thicker than I would prefer.

Baking
As per the advice on this board, I baked these a little cooler (less hot) than usual. The deck temperatures were around 350C (vs usually around 450C) and wall/dome temps were 480C (vs typically 540C). Thus they spent longer time in the oven, from 90 to 120 seconds (normally from 40 to be 70 seconds). Looking back I guess they could use maybe even a little more time in there, but the bake was acceptable I think. As expected, the crust was slightly more crisp/crunchy than usual. In addition, there was a little extra chew to it. Not too much, but more than I would prefer. Im guessing more experience could remedy this.

The flavour of the crust was very good. I only made marinaras, but I enjoyed them quite a bit.

Final thoughts
This was a fun experience. I cant say I like this better than pizza from straight dough (and surely not better than SD based dough), but on the other hand I really do enjoy the appearance of a Neapolitan pie with a huge fluffy soft cornicione. Perhaps with experience I might even improve to the point where I prefer the flavour and texture of the biga pizza. I will absolutely give this another go soon anyway.

Photo documentation attached.

Edit: Flour specification added
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 01:13:05 AM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline amolapizza

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #708 on: April 09, 2020, 05:33:45 PM »
Very nice!

Thanks for making the experiment!
Jack

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Offline sk

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #709 on: April 09, 2020, 05:43:09 PM »
Excellent testing and reporting Arne!  Thanks for that.  How long did the dough rest in balls before cooking?

You son looks like he thoroughly enjoyed the outcome!!  :drool:
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #710 on: April 09, 2020, 06:08:30 PM »
Excellent testing and reporting Arne!  Thanks for that.  How long did the dough rest in balls before cooking?

You son looks like he thoroughly enjoyed the outcome!!  :drool:

Scott, the dough rested in balls for 2.5 hours (after 2.5 hours in bulk).

Yes he did enjoy it and said I have to make 330 gram pizza for him from now on...  :o  :-D

Edit: Now that you ask, I find that recommendations for time in bulk and time in balls when using biga are hard to pin down. The MasterBiga app is pretty specific about the biga fase but after that I feel I'm on my own. My timings were pretty random. I found some advice that said to keep it in bulk only for a short while (source: forgotten) and that's where my 30 minute goal came from. My decision to cook the pies after 5 hours of total fermentation were more dictated by the speed by which the dough expanded than anything else. I don't normally use the fridge, but perhaps refredgeration might be a good option to prevent that crazy fast expansion I witnessed in this case.

More testing needed.  :-D

« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 06:27:19 PM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline sk

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #711 on: April 09, 2020, 09:12:12 PM »
Arne:  You and Greg both reported you felt the cooking time was moved forward based on speed of expansion and measurements from the pluvometer.  However, Greg felt the dough was a little stiff and did not stretch as easily as his IDY while you reported no issues but oven shrinkage from your normal 30cm.

I would submit that I find the Biga dough expands more than my regular SD but is simply more airy than my regular SD.  Meaning the pluvometer may indicate more expansion but it is all air and compresses easily when you stretch the dough.  In fact, my findings are like Greg's.  The dough which expanded a lot, pushes down easily and is still a bit stiff and does not want to stretch out to 30cm.  It will take a bit more experimentation but I am thinking shorter time in bulk and longer time in balls.  Perhaps those more experienced in Biga can comment.

Thoughts?

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #712 on: April 10, 2020, 01:26:38 AM »
Arne:  You and Greg both reported you felt the cooking time was moved forward based on speed of expansion and measurements from the pluvometer.  However, Greg felt the dough was a little stiff and did not stretch as easily as his IDY while you reported no issues but oven shrinkage from your normal 30cm.

I would submit that I find the Biga dough expands more than my regular SD but is simply more airy than my regular SD.  Meaning the pluvometer may indicate more expansion but it is all air and compresses easily when you stretch the dough.  In fact, my findings are like Greg's.  The dough which expanded a lot, pushes down easily and is still a bit stiff and does not want to stretch out to 30cm.  It will take a bit more experimentation but I am thinking shorter time in bulk and longer time in balls.  Perhaps those more experienced in Biga can comment.

Thoughts?

About my final dough: While it was very soft and workable, I did experience a bit more elasticity than normal. By that I mean the discs "pulled back" a bit, even before going into the oven. This was not a huge issue but required me to tug the edges after dragging it to the peel, just to get the proper size. This is something I experience when the dough balls are not relaxed enough, which could be the case here (2.5 hours is really short after all). I was actually expecting more elasticity given the time in balls. This elasticity is probably also a contributing factor to the oven shrinkage. (I can't help but think The Rise of the Cornicione also contributes to this, but realize that may just be my imagination.)

The expansion of the dough was very quick, and I agree this happens independently of the gluten degradation. So there may be an imbalance here, in that the gluten formed during dough production is not allowed enough time to break down properly (5 hours, again, that's really a very short time). But at the same time, the yeast has multiplied and is working like mad, leading to an explosive rise.

This is why I think perhaps using the fridge would have helped in my case: It would allow breaking down of gluten while keeping the yeast in check. Another option might be to use less yeast, but I was following The Way of the MasterBiga and did not want to improvise too much.

Edit: Allowing more time to break down the gluten might even reduce or eliminate the extra chew.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 01:33:07 AM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline amolapizza

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #713 on: April 10, 2020, 06:08:47 AM »
I've also noticed that a biga ferments the dough very fast.  If the dough grows too quickly maybe the solution is less biga, rather than reducing the yeast used in the biga.

To me an apretto of 2.5 hours seems very short, I'd say a minimum of 4 hours is needed for the balls to relax.  Possibly adopting a more gentle way of making the balls less tight might also help.

I'm not sure I understand the reason for using a lower oven temperature and a longer cooking period?
Jack

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #714 on: April 10, 2020, 06:39:10 AM »
I'm not sure I understand the reason for using a lower oven temperature and a longer cooking period?

Good question. This is just what I have picked up when researching biga based doughs. For example, DoouBall says in the thread I cited above that "a lower temperature is used to avoid an overly chewy, rubbery texture". Vincenzo Iannucci says something similar in the video below, though less succintly. Exactly why this is has not been explained in detail, but I am guessing it may have to do with the strength of the flour used in the biga, or perhaps it could be related to the thickness of the cornicione.


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Offline amolapizza

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #715 on: April 10, 2020, 08:08:48 AM »
I notice that he used way less yeast for the biga, than one would do for instance for a Giorilli biga.  He also developed far more gluten making the biga, it's way more mixed that what I've learnt to do.  He also uses way longer maturation for the main dough even though adding extra yeast.

On the oven temperature he says to use a lower temperature for both a direct and an indirect dough.  I think this is probably a personal preference, still a very soft looking pizza for the temperature.  Though what temperature does he refer to, the air, the deck, the dome?

IIRC, Enco Coccia also recommends something like 420-430C for a properly cooked Napolitana, though I think this is probably a polemic statement that could lead to some fierce discussions :)  I also note on a personal level that 450C on the deck in my electric oven is not the same as in a big gas oven.  I wonder if that doesn't hold true for most ovens in as much as one can't just say that 425C is universally the best, and it will depend on the individual oven and how it's heated..

IMO chewiness comes in two flavors. If it's chewy when it's warm, it comes from the gluten being too strong.  If gets chewy as it cools off, then I think it's from not having evaporated enough water during the baking.

Jack

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Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #716 on: April 10, 2020, 09:11:22 AM »
Great looking Marinaras and a spectacular crumb, Arne! Nuvola super does help a little bit, but still you did a pretty good job with your first biga dough. Wish mine would always look like that:)
I think it helps for elasticity if you use higher hydrations. Most biga-related videos i`ve seen from Salvatore Lioniello, Roberto Susta, etc. use 70% - over 80%. This might also be the reason, why longer baking times at lower temperature is recommended. Sometimes also malt is used in biga-doughs to prevent chewiness.
I like using the fridge, especially with biga doughs. With your dough parameters, i would have let it started in bulk for 1-2 hrs @ rt and put it in the fridge. The following day, balling and rising for 5-6hrs @ rt. I think Pizzapp is very helpful as well. It starts, where masterbiga ends. So you could use that for your final dough. But who am i to tell you this? I think i can learn more from you than vice versa when i look at your pizza. Stay safe and Happy Easter!
« Last Edit: April 10, 2020, 02:24:59 PM by Pete_da_Bayer »

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #717 on: April 10, 2020, 12:57:31 PM »
IMO chewiness comes in two flavors. If it's chewy when it's warm, it comes from the gluten being too strong.  If gets chewy as it cools off, then I think it's from not having evaporated enough water during the baking.

Good insight. I'll keep this in mind.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #718 on: April 10, 2020, 01:03:06 PM »
Great looking Marinaras and a spectacular crumb, Arne! Nuvola super does help a little bit, but still you did a pretty good job with your first biga dough. Wish mine would always look like that:)
I think it helps for elasticity if you use higher hydrations. Most biga-related videos i`ve seen from Salvatore Lioniello, Roberto Susta, etc. use 70% - over 80%. This might also be the reason, why longer baking times at lower temperatur is recommended. Somtimes also malt is used in biga-doughs to prevent chewiness.
I like using the fridge, especially with biga doughs. With your dough parameters, i would have let it started in bulk for 1-2 hrs @ rt and put it in the fridge. The following day, balling and rising for 5-6hrs @ rt. I think Pizzapp is very helpful as well. It starts, where masterbiga ends. So you could use that for your final dough. But who am i to tell you this? I think i can learn more from you than vice versa when i look at your pizza. Stay safe and Happy Easter!

Peter, thanks for your too kind words and a great number of useful tips.

I will follow your suggestion and use the fridge for maturation next time. This makes a lot of sense to me, so I'll start there.

Now, to check out Pizzapp. Happy Yeaster and stay safe you too!

Offline sk

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #719 on: April 10, 2020, 06:30:34 PM »
I think Pizzapp is very helpful as well. It starts, where masterbiga ends. So you could use that for your final dough.

Hi Pete:  I'm curious about where you think Pizzapp starts where MasterBiga ends.  I took a look using my typical formula and process and don't really see that.  Let me know what I might be missing.

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