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Author Topic: The Doughs of My Life  (Read 28346 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #540 on: August 13, 2019, 02:31:28 PM »
Another great link, thanks Peter. And another relevant quote from this one:

"For the oxidation reaction oxygen is needed. This oxygen is partially coming form the air which is beaten into the dough, but can also be provided by oxidising agents such as ascorbic acid or calcium peroxide. Ascorbic acid however is not an oxidising agent and will first be transformed into dehydro-ascorbic acid.

The function of the oxidising agents is to oxidise the sulfhydryl groups to disulfide bonds and strengthen the dough. The result is a tightly cross linked protein structure which, following leaving, maintains a volume many times the original."

Offline Icelandr

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #541 on: August 13, 2019, 04:24:30 PM »
That what I was thinking . . . .

Yikes
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Offline sk

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #542 on: August 13, 2019, 08:44:12 PM »
That what I was thinking . . . .

Yikes

Greg:   ^^^  Who knew?  And we thought it was just flour, water, salt and yeast.
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Offline Icelandr

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #543 on: August 13, 2019, 11:42:31 PM »
I will try this again having lost the post the first time . . . .


 Arne, I am making some dough for tomorrow night bake and decided to do a cut into the dough after my making the rough ball and then kneading and stretch and folding it as you did in one of your previous posts. The dough is the same, 62%, 2.9% salt, .018% IDY, the knuckles are the same so this is Greg’s dough (tonight’s version)


Picture 1 the dough as it came out of the Kitchen Aid
Picture 2 after I deemed it ready for bulk - s&f 15 minute rest, s&f 12 minute rest, s&f 10 minute rest, s&f shape to ball to bulk


Here is the video of the ball
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #544 on: August 14, 2019, 08:44:22 AM »
Thanks for sharing, Greg. Old scissorhands cut the dough clean through!

I also liked that you posted a video. There's something to the consistency you have there that intrigues me. Almost looks like modelling clay or something. I saw it before, too.
Even when I tried to emulate your process I did not get the look and feel that it seems like you have over there.

We should all get together on "neutral ground" some day and make pizza.  :-D


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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #545 on: August 15, 2019, 01:14:56 PM »
Weak vs Strong

As I'm working my way through 25 kilos of Caputo Biologica, a relatively weak flour compared to my old pal Caputo Pizzeria*, out of the blue I suddenly discover 1 kg bags of Caputo Cuoco in a local grocery store. That red bag of strong flour that I've read so much about but never actually tried. A comparison has to be made!

* According to the Caputo website, the three flours mentioned have the following specs:
Biologica (tipo 0): 12% protein, W250/270
Pizzeria (tipo 00): 12.5% protein, W260/270
Cuoco (tipo 00): 13% protein, W300/320


I made two doughs with exactly the same ratio of ingredients with the goal of treating them as identically as possible with respect to mixing procedure, timing and temperatures. The only difference: the type of flour used.

Ingredients:
  • Flour (A: Biologica, B: Cuoco)
  • 64% soft tap water (untreated)
  • 2.9% salt
  • 0.03% CY

Fermentation:
21 hours (9+12) at 22-23°C

Making the dough
These two flours are clearly very different, that was apparent from the get go. When the Biologica batch (A) was dumped on the counter after mixing in the Kenwood, it was very wet and runny, and it took a considerable time and effort to work it into a coherent dough. The Cuoco batch (B) on the other hand was rather firm and almost ready to go straight from the mixer. This was after receiving the exact same treatment up to this point. I felt I had to work the A dough enough to give it a fighting chance, so it did get a fair amount of hand kneading and folding compared to B. When they went to bulk, they looked fairly similar, but the B was still significantly firmer to the touch.

After bulk, the difference was actually almost as apparent. The dough based on Biologica (A) had firmed up quite a bit, but so had the Cuoco one (B). Making balls from both doughs was easy and did not really require any bench flour at all. Photos below.

The bake
I left for work after balling, and when I got back I was met by a pluviometer that had already passed my sweet spot of ~1.7x rise. No guests today, so I dropped everything and fired up the oven immediately.

When I started cooking, the doughs had been in balls for 10 hours (two less than planned for) and the pluviometers both showed 36, i.e. about a 2.4x rise.

It was really easy to spot which dough was which just by looking at them. The Biologica batch was much flatter and more relaxed than the Cuoco batch. I've included photos of this below. The difference just got more evident when I started extracting individual balls. In fact, dough A was so weak that I was not able to form a coherent disc after three attempts. At that point, even though I had three more waiting, I decided to move straight to dough B and see how that compared.

It was a huge difference: The B dough handled really well and seemed to be in almost perfect condition. One could almost say that the 64% Cuoco dough at 2.4x rise behaved similarly to my typical 64% Pizzeria dough at 1.8x rise. Amazing!

I made pizza from all the 6 Cuoco balls, and it went well. My only complaint is that too much bench flour remained on the crust, and that I was not vigilent about popping big empty air bubbles. Need to improve my skills there. But the pizzas were good, and we enjoyed both the taste and the texture.

In the end I decided to make one more attempt on the Biologica batch. Letting gravity do most of the work, I was able to cook a Margherita. It was delicious too, and I think comparable to the other ones.

I've included some pizza shots below, including the making of a previously untested variety: Spring onion, mozzarella, "knife-point" beef and lemon zest. The oven temperature was right around 480°C the whole time, and cooking times were around 60 seconds.

Random thoughs
After years of using only Caputo Pizzeria, I am really glad I've started trying other flours too. It is not only fun, but also very instructive. I've learned a lot from the experience already.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about pluviometer use ("spia di lievitazione") recently, and one of the points that the Dough Doctor brought up, about different flours giving different results, was clearly demonstrated to me today. I still think the pluviometer method is very useful, and I will continue to use it for what it is worth, but I've also experienced first hand that the type of flour (at least) should be taken into account when interpreting the rise in the cylinder.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 05:04:11 PM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline DoouBall

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #546 on: August 15, 2019, 01:22:47 PM »
Pizzas look fantastic, Arne! It's fun to play with new flours. Cheers,

Alex

Offline schold

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #547 on: August 15, 2019, 02:59:10 PM »
I think the fermentation (as seen in the cross section of the cornicione) on the spring onion pie looks spot on.
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #548 on: August 15, 2019, 03:20:18 PM »
Great pizzas and an interesting post! I've wondered how the Cuoco worked compared to Pizzeria for 24+48h doughs. There's one thing looking at numbers, but nothing beats hands-on experience. Did you have a pluviometer for each type of flour?

I agree that you always have to experiment to find what works best. I think the pluviometer gives a good starting point and once you've found a good point for your ingredients and method, it's a great way to achieve consistent results, even in changing conditions. You also have an indication of when you want to start baking.

Where did you find the Cuco? I think I've seen it in a Meny, but never tried it. Have you tried and compared pizzeria to a Caputo Classic?
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Icelandr

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #549 on: August 15, 2019, 04:48:08 PM »
Thanks Arne, another post where I learned some more! I didn’t think we were still linked in our bakes though, both with skyrocketing Pluviometers, sounds like a disease or a punk rock group!
My over fermented dough could be made round, but launching caused all manner of language, quietly so as to not shock the guests!

What is “knife point beef”? The pizza looks great and something to try - best served on round dough?
All the best!
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #550 on: August 16, 2019, 01:29:16 AM »
Pizzas look fantastic, Arne! It's fun to play with new flours. Cheers,

Thank you Alex. Lots of fun and amazing to see just how big a difference the flour can make.


I think the fermentation (as seen in the cross section of the cornicione) on the spring onion pie looks spot on.

Thanks for the comment, that one was from the Cuoco batch. And it did feel really good too, despite the 2.4x rise.
I wouldn't say the same for the Biologica batch though. :-D


Great pizzas and an interesting post! I've wondered how the Cuoco worked compared to Pizzeria for 24+48h doughs. There's one thing looking at numbers, but nothing beats hands-on experience. Did you have a pluviometer for each type of flour?

Thanks, yes I used two separate pluviometers to track each dough. They both showed 36 mm at bake actually, so the rise was identical for these doughs.


Where did you find the Cuco? I think I've seen it in a Meny, but never tried it. Have you tried and compared pizzeria to a Caputo Classic?

I found it at Meny CC Vest. I love that store, or their selection at least. That's one of the few places I know of where I can always find chipotle in adobo sauce, for example.
Regarding Caputo Classic, I have never tried it but I think I saw that there too.

Thanks Arne, another post where I learned some more! I didn’t think we were still linked in our bakes though, both with skyrocketing Pluviometers, sounds like a disease or a punk rock group!
My over fermented dough could be made round, but launching caused all manner of language, quietly so as to not shock the guests!

:-D :-D :-D


What is “knife point beef”? The pizza looks great and something to try - best served on round dough?

"Knife point beef" was my attempt at translating "in punta di coltello", i.e. cut in small pieces by hand, or "hand minced" if you will.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 01:46:09 AM by Arne_Jervell »

Offline Michiel

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #551 on: August 16, 2019, 03:42:03 AM »
Haha, these pictures gave me a laugh! :D

Maybe you already explained, but what exactly is the procedure to use these pluviometers?
You weight off a specific amount of dough and put it into the pluviometer and follow it up?
I feel a need to try this too, since I have trouble understanding when the dough is ready to bake..

PS: Great looking pizzas! :chef:

Offline Icelandr

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #552 on: August 16, 2019, 09:07:11 AM »
Arne my admiration just grew leaps and bounds . . . . .many can do science, very few can take and old guys odd turn of phrase and turn it into “reality” soon to be internationally famous T Shirts?
Wonderful!


Edit an hour later . . . . Damn that was cleverly done!
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 10:36:07 AM by Icelandr »
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Offline sk

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #553 on: August 16, 2019, 05:30:45 PM »
 :-D :-D :-D :-D Elvis better leave the building!
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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #554 on: August 17, 2019, 03:12:58 AM »
Maybe you already explained, but what exactly is the procedure to use these pluviometers?
You weight off a specific amount of dough and put it into the pluviometer and follow it up?
I feel a need to try this too, since I have trouble understanding when the dough is ready to bake..

Yes, that's correct. The general procedure is:

1. When the dough is ready for bulk, snip off X grams of dough, ball it up and place it in a graduated cylinder. This is your spy. Now note down the height (or if the container is not graduated, place a rubber band around it to mark the spot). The value for X is arbitrary, but you have to use the same value each time in order to track and compare your own results. The main point is that the initial height is the same each time you do this, so you always have the same starting value V0. Several forum members use a pluviometer/rain gauge and 80 grams of dough, like Besmir and Ville suggest in their book "Pizza Napoletana", which results in an initial value of about 15 or 16. That's convenient for easy communication but not necessary. You can use any weight you want that fits your container.

2. Wherever the dough goes, the cylinder follows. Make sure the spy is exposed to the exact same conditions as the main dough.

3. Spy and adjust. You can now visit the spy and read off current values and compare with the initial value. With time, this allows you to get a good sense of whether the dough is too slow, too fast or just right and act accordingly.

4. Note the final rise value, V. When you're ready to bake, note down the actual final rise value V. If you divide this by the initial value V0 you have your rise factor. For example, I look for something in the neighborhood of V=27. Given an initial value of 15.5, the rise factor is 27/15.5 = 1.7x.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 04:00:32 AM by Arne_Jervell »

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Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #555 on: August 17, 2019, 03:16:10 AM »
Arne my admiration just grew leaps and bounds . . . . .many can do science, very few can take and old guys odd turn of phrase and turn it into “reality” soon to be internationally famous T Shirts?
Wonderful!

:-D I laughed so hard when I read your post about the "disease or punk rock band", it was impossible to resist. I'll give that T-shirt some thought... :-D

Offline schold

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #556 on: August 17, 2019, 07:53:48 AM »
In addion to following the fermentation process with dough in a graduated cylinder, they also use a so-called spread test (see picture below where they employ common kitchen cookware, I guess for the sake of the beginner). The idea is to measure the diameter of a dough ball (which doesn't have any "side support") in order to obtain insight into dough strength. Correct fermentation and dough strength are obviously extremely important when it's time to bake them pies.

Furthermore, the spia is used to decide the timing of going from bulk to balls (see third picture below) and they make convincing arguments as to why this is best done close to (3), where the "vertical phase" begins.

Great book which has changed a lot of my approach to pizza and also made my results significantly more reproducible.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 08:04:13 AM by schold »
Cooking is not a recipe, it's a philosophy - unless it's pastry, then it's chemistry.

- Marco Pierre White

Offline amolapizza

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #557 on: August 17, 2019, 08:21:39 AM »
Seeing that I can read Swedish I really ought to get this book someday!
Jack,

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #558 on: August 17, 2019, 11:56:28 AM »
What language do you not understand, amolapizza?

Thanks for that, schold! I might have to pick up that book.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Reply #559 on: August 17, 2019, 12:09:47 PM »
What language do you not understand, amolapizza?

Most! :)
Jack,

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