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Author Topic: Da Michele Dough  (Read 10228 times)

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Online wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #60 on: February 18, 2019, 02:39:13 PM »
With ~115,000g of flour in a batch, you could likely vary the water by more than +/- 1 liter without noticing any difference.
Probably way more than a litre. I reckon that they'd only have a very general idea what their hydration really is.
In my industry we call it "Bucket Chemistry".
"Hey junior metallurgist, fill the tank to about 3 feet below the brim, then whack in about this much of that other stuff. Doesn't look right ? Add a bit more of the other stuff.
Born after we got the metric system? Ah well try filling the tank to about 1 metre (39 and a bit inches) below the brim. Yeah that looks about right."
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 02:44:04 PM by wotavidone »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #61 on: February 18, 2019, 02:50:02 PM »
The general consensus seems to be that they end up around 55-60%.
Not what I'd call high hydration, which was my point.
You know how you reckon the "absolutely must have typo 00 flour" mantra has probably screwed over more beginners than it has helped?
I feel the same way about high hydration.

I wouldn't disagree though it does depend a bit on the flour.
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Offline Rolls

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2019, 03:26:01 PM »
Emmanuele half-jokingly says: "Qual'è l'idratazione? Boh? È pronta" ----> "What is the hydration? I dunno. When it's ready".

I think they start the dough with fixed amounts of water, salt and yeast and add the flour gradually quantum sufficit or quanto basta until reaching the punto di pasta which they gauge by eye and by touch.


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Online wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #63 on: February 19, 2019, 04:42:47 AM »
I wouldn't disagree though it does depend a bit on the flour.
Yes, no doubt for every different flour there is a minimum hydration level below which the dough is just plain unworkable.
For my three locally available supermarket generics, I find Woolworths and Coles own brands require about 60% hydration for a decent easily handled dough.
The Aldi White Mill house flour is hard to handle at 60%.
I'm trying about 57% hydration next time I use it.
It feels extra silky in comparison to the other two, like it is ground finer, but seems to take less water.

Strangely, those flours are all 10% protein generics that probably come from the same mills. :-D

Emmanuele half-jokingly says: "Qual'è l'idratazione? Boh? È pronta" ----> "What is the hydration? I dunno. When it's ready".
I reckon all of them are guessing it, pretty much. Start here and see if you need to add a little more flour at the end.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 04:46:09 AM by wotavidone »

Online wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #64 on: February 19, 2019, 05:15:29 AM »
Recently, I was looking a picture of a Da Machele pie, and it dawned on me that I had been missing the obvious all these years - I generally didn't have places with just crust and oil (and salt which I sprinkle over the whole pie just before baking. Those sections are almost like a bread stick. Doing this intentionally was a major step forward in my pizza. It's not something you see a lot, and I think it may be one reason, that nobody realizes, why people like Da Michele so much.

I do this a bit - not too often because I am the only person of my acquaintance who gets it.
I got the idea years ago from Russell Jeavons, who started an artisan pizza joint in an old house down south.

In about 1992, he built a wood oven from ordinary red house bricks and ran a very successful business selling wood fired delights.
The oven is built inside a rustic enclosure that looks like an oh-so-Aussie corrugated iron rain water tank.

I saw him on TV one day. I'm going to guess it at about 8 years ago. It was one of those lifestyle programs extolling the touristy bits of our state.
As he demonstrated a wood fired pizza, he said something along the lines of "You've got to leave a few bare spaces or the dough won't cook properly."
It was a pivotal moment for me too. I was still cooking the pizzas in my stove at the time, but that was when "less is more" started to make sense.

I remember discussing it with a work colleague who fancied himself a bit of a foodie and had been there.
"Nice pizzas I guess, a bit light on toppings," he said. What a mutton head.

Eventually he sold, but the restaurant is still extant.
Mind you, I just googled it. There's a rolling pin in one of the pictures!!!!
I'm devastated. Looks like the new owners aren't quite as trad as Russell.
Looking at the pictures of their product, I'd wager most members of this forum could do as well.
https://www.russellspizza.com
« Last Edit: February 19, 2019, 05:31:50 AM by wotavidone »

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Offline Amv

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2019, 12:50:08 PM »
Tomorrow im going to try with caputo blue 00 and 60% hydration.
12h in bulk and 12 in balls.


Offline Pazzo

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2019, 04:00:27 PM »
Tomorrow im going to try with caputo blue 00 and 60% hydration.
12h in bulk and 12 in balls.

Pretty good plan there. That's pretty much my go to except I let the bulk ferment go for usually 14-16 hours. Not for any technical reason, I just don't feel like balling the dough early in the morning to give it a full 12 hours.
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Offline Icelandr

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2019, 04:48:40 PM »
I found in my case that 12 hours in ball led to a “too relaxed” dough, it would stretch for miles If I was inclined, after non scientific messing about I have settled on 18 bulk, 6 ball at 18-20° C and have been happy, relatively speaking. I will be interested in your finding.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2019, 05:20:10 PM »
FWIW: I think 6-8 hours in balls on top of wood is very good (some day I'll give longer a decent try).  Gives the dough time to relax, and the bottoms are nicely dry, so little need for much bench flour.
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Offline Amv

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2019, 08:06:18 PM »
Finally, 14h bulk and 10h in balls.
60% hydration
0.68gr fresh yeast


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Offline Icelandr

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #70 on: March 15, 2019, 12:05:38 AM »
THAT, looks like a pizza, enjoy!
But I already know what you are thinking . . . If I change that, and do this, and next time I will try . .  . And so it goes, do you deliver to an island in the pacific?
Have fun!
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #71 on: March 15, 2019, 11:31:09 AM »
THAT, looks like a pizza, enjoy!
But I already know what you are thinking . . . If I change that, and do this, and next time I will try . .  . And so it goes, do you deliver to an island in the pacific?
Have fun!

Hahaha. You just described me right after a pizza session. Probably a lot of others on here too :)

Offline Amv

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #72 on: March 15, 2019, 10:17:37 PM »
Hahaha. You just described me right after a pizza session. Probably a lot of others on here too :)
Ahahhaha. Next day 8 in bulk and 16 in balls!

Offline Amv

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #73 on: March 26, 2019, 05:20:01 PM »
Today...12 in bulk...12 in balls.

I think i need more time in balls, maybe 16h.

The leopard its perfect!
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 05:21:50 PM by Amv »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #74 on: May 20, 2019, 06:55:44 AM »
Found a great video of the dough making process at Da Michele. Looks very low hydration to my eye - maybe 55% to 58% water. Very interesting!

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #75 on: May 20, 2019, 07:40:15 AM »
Found a great video of the dough making process at Da Michele. Looks very low hydration to my eye - maybe 55% to 58% water. Very interesting!

There are a couple videos posted earlier in this thread that show a lot more detail of the entire process. We also settled in on 55-58% after analyzing them.
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #76 on: June 03, 2019, 11:35:29 PM »
Has anyone tried making this dough recently or, better yet, baking it in the Breville oven?

I've been helping out a spot that actually uses a very similar process for their dough - though unintentionally and way too much yeast. Despite the dough nearly quadrupling and looking/smelling like a poolish at 80f room temp, 3 hours after balling it stretches just fine and makes a pretty good pizza. I couldn't believe it. I can only imagine backing off on the yeast would give an even better product. Moral of the story - commercial yeast is pretty versatile... I think if one were to use a more appropriate amount you could probably let the dough sit in bulk for quite a while so long as you balled 3 to 5 hours before you intended to use...and I would estimate the balls would hold at room temp for 8 hours or so without a problem.

If I wanted to try something like DaMichele at home, can someone recommend an instant dry yeast amount that might be appropriate for an 18 to 24h bulk with balls 3 to 5 hours before use? I'm guessing at such low levels and the versatility of the balling "as needed," the yeast amount for 18 hours and 3 in balls and 24 hours and 5 in balls would probably be somewhat similar?

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #77 on: June 09, 2019, 11:32:14 PM »
Edit: so I tried this with a very low yeast amount (0.01% IDY) and bulk showed some activity but it was hardly too active. Balled up and the dough felt very sticky despite only being 58% hydration and the longer it sat the stickier it seemed to get at room temp.

Anyone have any idea what’s going on? What’s kind of strange is the dough (even after 8 hours in balls) is not
Blown out (doesn’t even look like what Keste deals with) but it’s just so sticky. I can’t figure out why that would be when the dough was not sticky at all after mixing.

100% KAAP
58% cool water
2.75% salt
0.01% IDY

Final dough temp 73f. Bulk 18 hours, ball and rest. Seemed usable from 3 hours up to 8 hours now - just really sticky...

Offline thezaman

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #78 on: June 11, 2019, 11:35:45 PM »
Lou,keste bulk rises till It's more then double. Pretty sure it takes more then 24 hours. His hydration is 60 percent. The salt level over 3 percent. Very little activity then it kicks in. They ball it then allow another long rise in ball form.the dough is over fermented. A extra not oven is needed to create steam and help along the remaining yeast
 

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #79 on: June 11, 2019, 11:48:37 PM »
I've been trying this with the King Arthur flour I have on hand and I think the malt is not letting the dough get to that point without breaking down. It gets very sticky - will try with unmalted flour later this week. If it's not a flour issue I don't know what's causing it.

Lou,keste bulk rises till It's more then double. Pretty sure it takes more then 24 hours. His hydration is 60 percent. The salt level over 3 percent. Very little activity then it kicks in. They ball it then allow another long rise in ball form.the dough is over fermented. A extra not oven is needed to create steam and help along the remaining yeast

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