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Author Topic: Da Michele Dough  (Read 9841 times)

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Offline thezaman

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2019, 09:38:28 PM »
 Hi Lou I remembered another keste recipe he gave me. It was if using refrigeration. I saw them making dough at amano in ridgwood NJ. Carlo the owner was very open on his method. They use 15 grams wet yeast for 25 kilos of flour. The salt is 3.4 percent and water at 60 percent. Using caputo blue. They bulk for two hours ball and let it room rise all day Till closing then they refrigerate it. Next day bring it out to warm up before service.
 Roberto was involved with that pizzeria.
 Carlo also is the caputo distributor in the US he is a owner of Orlando foods.
 

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #81 on: June 13, 2019, 12:37:02 PM »
I tried it with an unmalted flour and the dough felt much better. Moving slow, but it's not degrading. No sticky slack mess. It had to be the malt. Will give the A Mano recipe a try after trying to nail the Da Michele process down.

Hi Lou I remembered another keste recipe he gave me. It was if using refrigeration. I saw them making dough at amano in ridgwood NJ. Carlo the owner was very open on his method. They use 15 grams wet yeast for 25 kilos of flour. The salt is 3.4 percent and water at 60 percent. Using caputo blue. They bulk for two hours ball and let it room rise all day Till closing then they refrigerate it. Next day bring it out to warm up before service.
 Roberto was involved with that pizzeria.
 Carlo also is the caputo distributor in the US he is a owner of Orlando foods.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #82 on: June 13, 2019, 05:26:17 PM »
Hey hotsauce, just saw your post.

Even when you use tiny amounts of yeast, and the dough doesn't rise much, the enzymes are still fully active because they are present in the flour and activated by water. These slowly cause your gluten net to degrade, especially at room temperature, and your dough is going to get more and more wet and sticky over time, and at the extreme end fall apart and turn into liquid.  My guess is that's what happened here. I don't think 0.01% IDY is enough - I would increase the % and decrease your rising time. I think your problem will go away.

Alex

Edit: so I tried this with a very low yeast amount (0.01% IDY) and bulk showed some activity but it was hardly too active. Balled up and the dough felt very sticky despite only being 58% hydration and the longer it sat the stickier it seemed to get at room temp.

Anyone have any idea what’s going on? What’s kind of strange is the dough (even after 8 hours in balls) is not
Blown out (doesn’t even look like what Keste deals with) but it’s just so sticky. I can’t figure out why that would be when the dough was not sticky at all after mixing.

100% KAAP
58% cool water
2.75% salt
0.01% IDY

Final dough temp 73f. Bulk 18 hours, ball and rest. Seemed usable from 3 hours up to 8 hours now - just really sticky...

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #83 on: June 13, 2019, 05:52:59 PM »
I'm clearly no expert, just amateur, but I tried going to .01% to solve on overferementation  issue, and I had dough that just  plain failed to develop 

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #84 on: June 25, 2019, 01:12:55 PM »
What would you recommend? a same day napoletana dough like the VPN recipe?

After some experimenting, I'm having trouble getting 24 hours out of my dough at this room temp. I think my room temp of 75f to 80 is really speeding things up. Others that have had success with 24 hours or longer have typically been at cellar temps (64, 65, no more than 70 it seems.)

I know Ciro Salvo has mentioned his dough may take as little as 12 hours in the summer, but plenty of pizzaiolos in naples are pushing 24 hours at room temp. I'm stumped.


 
Hey hotsauce, just saw your post.

Even when you use tiny amounts of yeast, and the dough doesn't rise much, the enzymes are still fully active because they are present in the flour and activated by water. These slowly cause your gluten net to degrade, especially at room temperature, and your dough is going to get more and more wet and sticky over time, and at the extreme end fall apart and turn into liquid.  My guess is that's what happened here. I don't think 0.01% IDY is enough - I would increase the % and decrease your rising time. I think your problem will go away.

Alex

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Offline Pazzo

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #85 on: June 25, 2019, 01:29:14 PM »
When my humidity in the kitchen is over 60% I go down to .01% IDY and don't have any problems letting the dough go for 24 hours (14/8) and the room is 72-73f. For normal conditions in my kitchen which I consider 72f and between 40-50% humidity I do .016%IDY for 24hrs (12/12). If sticking with the .01% yeast or maybe knocking it down to .06% do you think less time in balls would help your situation? I watched a video from Vito Iacopelli about his outdoor events in LA and he said he starts using the dough after only 2-3 hours in balls.

On another topic, I don't get why the humidity would have such an affect on my dough when I'm keeping it in an "airtight" container.
"I would never win an award for not loving pizza!" -Dwayne Johnson

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #86 on: June 25, 2019, 01:55:16 PM »
what do you mean knocking it down to .06%? wouldnt that be significantly increasing the yeast

When my humidity in the kitchen is over 60% I go down to .01% IDY and don't have any problems letting the dough go for 24 hours (14/8) and the room is 72-73f. For normal conditions in my kitchen which I consider 72f and between 40-50% humidity I do .016%IDY for 24hrs (12/12). If sticking with the .01% yeast or maybe knocking it down to .06% do you think less time in balls would help your situation? I watched a video from Vito Iacopelli about his outdoor events in LA and he said he starts using the dough after only 2-3 hours in balls.

On another topic, I don't get why the humidity would have such an affect on my dough when I'm keeping it in an "airtight" container.

Offline Pazzo

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #87 on: June 25, 2019, 02:43:41 PM »
what do you mean knocking it down to .06%? wouldnt that be significantly increasing the yeast

Typo - .006%
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Offline Matthew

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #88 on: June 29, 2019, 03:33:52 PM »
I have been working on reverse engineering this dough for quite some time now & I believe that I am almost there.  I will post some pics tomorrow.  I have not used a Neapolitan oven in a couple of years now as most of the restaurants that I have consulted for are using gas/wood combo made in Italy & readily available in North America. 


Matt

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #89 on: June 30, 2019, 07:17:32 AM »
I have been working on reverse engineering this dough for quite some time now & I believe that I am almost there.  I will post some pics tomorrow.  I have not used a Neapolitan oven in a couple of years now as most of the restaurants that I have consulted for are using gas/wood combo made in Italy & readily available in North America. 


Matt

Looking forward to it. Would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on what some "key factors"  might be too.

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #90 on: June 30, 2019, 10:33:05 AM »
What would you recommend? a same day napoletana dough like the VPN recipe?

After some experimenting, I'm having trouble getting 24 hours out of my dough at this room temp. I think my room temp of 75f to 80 is really speeding things up. Others that have had success with 24 hours or longer have typically been at cellar temps (64, 65, no more than 70 it seems.)

I know Ciro Salvo has mentioned his dough may take as little as 12 hours in the summer, but plenty of pizzaiolos in naples are pushing 24 hours at room temp. I'm stumped.

hey hotsauce, just saw your message - apologies for the delay. Personally I don't think the VPN recipe has enough flavor. It's main merit is that the dough is ready quickly and has a nice hole structure due to the highly active yeast at room temperature. For me, even 16 hour direct yeasted room temp doughs seem to lack flavor. I guess I'm spoiled by TxCraig1's 48 hour sourdough recipe :)

If you'd like to keep the same method with low yeast, and have a long room temp rise, you could switch to a flour with a higher W value, something W300 or up. Renato (SAUZER) has reported good results with W300 flours made by Mulino Marino with his 24 hour sourdough recipe in his thread.

A few readily available options in the US include Le 5 Stagioni Pizza Napoletana - it has W300 so it might do better than Pizzeria with W260-270. I haven't tried that one for 24 hour at room temp, but I think it'll work. You could also switch to Caputo Red if you have access to it (W300/320), or the Caputo Chef's Flour sold in small 2.2lb bags (W300/320).

http://www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour/la-linea-professionale/rinforzato

http://www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour/la-linea-cucina/cuoco

I'm posting the Italian website links because the US ones don't show W values.

This year, I have been paying close attention to W values - they're critical. The higher the W value, the longer your dough can last because its gluten forming ability is stronger. Italians are very specific about with W value they use for which application. For example, focaccia is often made with W180 to make a fast, fluffy and soft dough. Pizza is normally done with W240-260, but lately, it seems there is a trend to mix weaker flours (Salvo brothers for example) for a more digestible pizza.

In reality, there's nothing wrong with having a pizza with a highly degraded gluten network prior to baking. As long as you can shape it and bake it, it'll be more digestible for your guests. It just might not have the beautiful airy cornicione. Hope that helps,

Alex


« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 12:31:32 AM by DoouBall »

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #91 on: June 30, 2019, 10:35:58 AM »
I have been working on reverse engineering this dough for quite some time now & I believe that I am almost there.  I will post some pics tomorrow.  I have not used a Neapolitan oven in a couple of years now as most of the restaurants that I have consulted for are using gas/wood combo made in Italy & readily available in North America. 


Matt

Matt, that's awesome! Looking forward to reading your upcoming post on this!

Alex

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #92 on: June 30, 2019, 02:04:42 PM »
This is very interesting. I think a few things are coming into play. The W value is probably a big part of it but I think my room temp is just so warm it’s speeding things along. Likely, humidity as well. I was having issues with caputo pizzeria at 58% hydration in plastic trays being sticky. I proofed a 62% water dough on wood for 18 hours and it was beautiful. I’d ball later next time because bottoms were getting a little dry for my tastes but it was night and day. I have to think the wood played some part in regulating things.

The salvo brothers seem to use half caputo pizzeria and half tipo 0 flour which I would guess has that higher W number. There’s a video where they use a brown bag caputo flour but I haven’t checked it out.

I’ve included a photo of the dough on wood.



hey hotsauce, just saw your message - apologies for the delay. Personally I don't think the VPN recipe has enough flavor. It's main merit is that the dough is ready quickly and has a nice hole structure due to the highly active yeast at room temperature. For me, even 16 hour direct yeasted room temp doughs seem to lack flavor. I guess I'm spoiled by TxCraig1's 48 hour sourdough recipe :)

If you'd like to keep the same method with low yeast, and have a long room temp rise, you could switch to a flour with a higher W value, something W300 or up. Renato (SAUZER) has reported good results with W300 flours made by Mulino Marino with his 24 hour sourdough recipe in his thread.

A few readily available options in the US include Le 5 Stagioni Pizza Napoletana - it has W300 so it might do better than Pizzeria with W260-270. I haven't tried that one for 24 hour at room temp, but I think it'll work. You could also switch to Caputo Red if you have access to it (W300/320), or the Caputo Chef's Flour sold in small 2.2lb bags (W300/320).

http://www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour/la-linea-professionale/rinforzato

http://www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour/la-linea-cucina/cuoco

I'm posting the Italian website links because the US ones don't show W values.

This year, I have been paying close attention to W values - they're critical. The higher the W value, the longer your dough can last at room temp because enzyme activity is lower (higher W = slower enzymes). Italians are very specific about with W value they use for which application. For example, focaccia is often made with W180 to make a fast, fluffy and soft dough. Pizza is normally done with W240-260, but lately, it seems there is a trend to mix weaker flours (Salvo brothers for example) for a more digestible pizza.

In reality, there's nothing wrong with having a pizza with a highly degraded gluten network prior to baking. As long as you can shape it and bake it, it'll be more digestible for your guests. It just might not have the beautiful airy cornicione. Hope that helps,

Alex

Offline Matthew

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2019, 02:14:28 PM »
I have been working on reverse engineering this dough for quite some time now & I believe that I am almost there.  I will post some pics tomorrow.  I have not used a Neapolitan oven in a couple of years now as most of the restaurants that I have consulted for are using gas/wood combo made in Italy & readily available in North America. 


Matt


My clients absolutely loved it.  We did a natural 48 hour room temp fermentation (24+24) 300g dough balls stretched to about 13".

Offline Pazzo

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2019, 02:45:53 PM »

My clients absolutely loved it.  We did a natural 48 hour room temp fermentation (24+24) 300g dough balls stretched to about 13".

Very nice. What was your room temp and oven temp? Have you shared your formula and wf anywhere yet or is it not ready?
"I would never win an award for not loving pizza!" -Dwayne Johnson

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Offline Matthew

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #95 on: June 30, 2019, 05:06:56 PM »
Very nice. What was your room temp and oven temp? Have you shared your formula and wf anywhere yet or is it not ready?


Room temp was about 68 deg, oven temp 900ish.
Around 63% hydration, 3% starter, 3% salt. 

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2019, 05:51:22 PM »
Matt, that looks beautiful! What flour did you use for this?

hotsauce, I believe the flour the Salvo brothers use in addition to Pizzeria is Speciale:



It's actually the opposite for them, they use this lower W value flour (W210-230) to further increase enzyme activity and make the pizza more digestible. Ciro has also talked about how important it is to him to make digestible dough in some other videos. I think these guys are shooting for a tender and digestible pizza and they have learned to handle, shape and bake sticky dough that's ready to give up the ghost to achieve that goal.

Offline Pazzo

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2019, 06:01:20 PM »
they use this lower W value flour (W210-230) to further increase enzyme activity and make the pizza more digestible

How does this impact fermentation time? What hydration rates are they around?
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2019, 06:23:29 PM »
I've seen this and was surprised by the Special flour. In another video, they blend 3 types. I guess they always change.

In Ciro's video, he makes a dough with what looks like the A Metro 00, which has a 310/330 W value and a lot of protein for 24 hours. That makes sense. I don't know if he uses that in his actual pizzeria. We all know Da Michele uses the Caputo pizzeria over 24 hours, but it just hasn't held up for me. I do think it's the heat and humidity.

I will try it moving forward with the wood in the trays, but I'm also getting some caputo Chef's flour and will try that out over 24 hours.

Matt, that looks beautiful! What flour did you use for this?

hotsauce, I believe the flour the Salvo brothers use in addition to Pizzeria is Speciale:



It's actually the opposite for them, they use this lower W value flour (W210-230) to further increase enzyme activity and make the pizza more digestible. Ciro has also talked about how important it is to him to make digestible dough in some other videos. I think these guys are shooting for a tender and digestible pizza and they have learned to handle, shape and bake sticky dough that's ready to give up the ghost to achieve that goal.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2019, 08:00:17 PM »

Thanks Alex.  I used Caputo Red

Matt, that looks beautiful! What flour did you use for this?

hotsauce, I believe the flour the Salvo brothers use in addition to Pizzeria is Speciale:



It's actually the opposite for them, they use this lower W value flour (W210-230) to further increase enzyme activity and make the pizza more digestible. Ciro has also talked about how important it is to him to make digestible dough in some other videos. I think these guys are shooting for a tender and digestible pizza and they have learned to handle, shape and bake sticky dough that's ready to give up the ghost to achieve that goal.

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