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Author Topic: Da Michele Dough  (Read 9838 times)

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Offline ebpizza

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2019, 11:55:44 AM »
The dough room appears to be above the restaurant and there is a wall mounted cooling /heating unit next to the balcony door, so my guess is around 68F.

For me the biggest reveal was the 24h/4-5hr info
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 11:58:32 AM by ebpizza »

Offline ebpizza

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2019, 11:56:27 AM »
And I bet the bulk time is reduced in the summer

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2019, 12:51:55 PM »
50% water?!?!?

That's it?

Thanks to ebpizza for posting the video. Here's the rundown in English:
  • 50% Water - more added if needed


It's pretty common in commercial baking to hold back 10% of the formula water for final adjustment (to accomodate flour variation etc.)... it's probably 55% at least by the time the dough feels right.
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Offline wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #43 on: February 15, 2019, 01:48:47 PM »
I was chuffed to see a serious professional say that 50%, maybe a little more if you need it, is all that is required. After all the Caputo spec says absorption 55-57%. The full quote is "but for 1 kg flour, half a litre of water should be enough to have a soft dough".

Personally, I've always doubted the fascination with high hydration.
IMO it's a hangover from bread making.
It's helpful for providing oven spring in the short fermented bread making arena, but I reckon it's counter productive in several ways for making pizza.

1) Even pizza dough that seems fairly dry releases some of the water as it relaxes. I make my dough the night before I want it, and ball it with 4-6 hours to go. At the 60-62% hydration I normally use, the bulk fermented mass is quite sticky and I give it a couple of quick folds to reincorporate water before I portion it. After a 4-6 hours in balls, the dough is again quite sticky. There have been numerous threads were people have spoken of sticky, hard to handle dough. So reduce the water - make it easy to handle.

2) Pizza cornicione is a solidified foam. In a serious WFO oven, you've got about one minute to expand that foam and cook it so it sets and stays expanded.
To cook the interior has to heat up. Evaporating water must slow that process.

Offline ARenko

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #44 on: February 15, 2019, 01:51:35 PM »
For home use I'd expect higher hydration for the long bake.  I think it was Davide Civitiello on one of the Italia Squisita that did a home Neo recipe and said basically that. 

I'm always skeptical that these guys are really revealing what they truly do.  I've also seen where the same guy will give different recipes/ processes in different videos on how he, or his pizzeria, makes his dough. 

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Offline ebpizza

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #45 on: February 15, 2019, 01:59:30 PM »
Of all the ingredients , my guess flour is never measured since it is the last ingredient and they adjust the final amount based on dough texture. Add more if needed.


Offline wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #46 on: February 15, 2019, 02:21:41 PM »
For home use I'd expect higher hydration for the long bake.
I must admit that I am speaking from the point of view of having a wood-fired oven that often exceeds the measuring range of my 550 C /1020 F IR thermometer.
Mind you, that is bloody annoying when that happens.
It's "Bugger, I've overshot, now I've got to wait ages for it to cool down"

The other thing that springs to mind is, does that guy ever bake in a domestic oven anyway?
Probably goes home after churning out his 700-1000 pizzas and says "Wife, cook me a steak. If you ever cook a pizza in this house I'll scream."

edit: On further reflection, how much more water do you really need for a longer bake? It is a longer bake because the temperature is lower. Maybe a little more, but perhaps not as much as we've been led to think.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 02:45:35 PM by wotavidone »

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #47 on: February 15, 2019, 02:35:41 PM »
Of all the ingredients , my guess flour is never measured since it is the last ingredient and they adjust the final amount based on dough texture. Add more if needed.
It's sorta measured. They probably trust the 25kg label on the bag. In the end they'd know how many bags and part bags they use.
No one appears to measure the water with any accuracy at all. Its always buckets or hoses.

What it comes down to is experience, I guess.
They've been doing it so long they can judge the water and flour by eye, feel whether the moisture is right, weigh the balls in their hands and get very consistent, etc.
It's only us amateurs, who don't want to have to make 1000's of pizzas to learn, who want precise quantities and times.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #48 on: February 15, 2019, 04:56:26 PM »
My understanding is that the Italians normally base percentages on the water weight, for 1L of water, Xg of flour, salt, yeast.  It seems that flour is added last and they keep adding it until the dough feels right.  This is probably a good approach as the amount of flour needed seems to depend on the humidity (weather) and also the humidity of the flour itself, etc.  I've also heard it mentioned that not only the yeast amount might wary depending on the temperature, but also the salt amount used.

Personally I think in the end you need to learn a method to make your own dough that is right for your ingredients, workflow, oven, etc.  A recipe is of limited use, which is probably not what we all want to hear :)

Also what self respecting restaurant gives away it's secrets...  I know a friend was enchanted by a certain pizza in teglia in Rome, he asked the pizzaiolo what the secret of making such a god teglia was.  The answer was "I don't wash my hands after going to the bath room" :D
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Offline jlijoi

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #49 on: February 15, 2019, 10:22:07 PM »

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Offline wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #50 on: February 15, 2019, 11:18:41 PM »
Also what self respecting restaurant gives away it's secrets...
Well, after several dates (dinners, movies, flowers, sweet lovin', etc) the girl who worked in the kitchen at my favourite restaurant did once rock up at my house with some green peppercorns, cream, and scotch fillets and proceed to show me the right way to cook a rare steak with a real pepper sauce.



Offline Elkaybay

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2019, 05:15:09 AM »
The other impasto videos below. Compared to the video above, they were saying to do 24 + 12 to 24h fermentation, so a longer balling time



« Last Edit: February 17, 2019, 11:51:00 AM by Elkaybay »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2019, 10:28:42 AM »
No one appears to measure the water with any accuracy at all. Its always buckets or hoses.

With ~115,000g of flour in a batch, you could likely vary the water by more than +/- 1 liter without noticing any difference.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #53 on: February 18, 2019, 10:30:02 AM »
I was chuffed to see a serious professional say that 50%,

Make a batch of 50% dough and see if you still believe him.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #54 on: February 18, 2019, 10:42:15 AM »
The other impasto videos below. Compared to the video above, they were saying to do 24 + 12 to 24h fermentation, so a longer balling time

If I counted right, he used 4.5 buckets of water and 4.5 bags of flour. That looks like a 15l bucket which would make the hydration 60%.

https://www.camlab.co.uk/skirted-stainless-steel-bucket-with-swing-handle-15l-pv67850.aspx
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Offline thezaman

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #55 on: February 18, 2019, 11:46:00 AM »
If I counted right, he used 4.5 buckets of water and 4.5 bags of flour. That looks like a 15l bucket which would make the hydration 60%.

https://www.camlab.co.uk/skirted-stainless-steel-bucket-with-swing-handle-15l-pv67850.aspx



  your probably right on. that seems to be a good hydration for all room temperature dough. that's where keste and that group are at. 

Offline wb54885

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #56 on: February 18, 2019, 12:21:23 PM »
If I counted right, he used 4.5 buckets of water and 4.5 bags of flour. That looks like a 15l bucket which would make the hydration 60%.

https://www.camlab.co.uk/skirted-stainless-steel-bucket-with-swing-handle-15l-pv67850.aspx

Most of the rest of that last bag gets added closer to the end of the mix, though. That means they're putting ~90% of their flour into the bowl up front and adding the last ~10% after a little over 15 minutes, with about 10 minutes left.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #57 on: February 18, 2019, 12:38:44 PM »
So 55-58% maybe? I'd believe that range. It must be fairly dry, or it would be caked with flour on the bottom given how much bench flour they use when opening.
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Offline wb54885

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #58 on: February 18, 2019, 01:54:31 PM »
If I was putting $5 on the line, I'd guess it usually ends up very close to 56%. Gradually hydrated, spiral mixed and RT fermented, I think that's plenty soft to do what they do. Saying that 50% in a home recipe "should be enough" to give you a soft dough is a red herring  ;D 

I think a lot of their look comes from high heat...

I think sufficient top heat is the most important factor: low dome, rolling flame, etc. When I use my Acunto, I keep a log burning and flame rolling across the top of the tome. In the Pizza Party, the gas flame is on high and the top is glowing red. I think room temperature fermentation is also important to even browning. Cold ferments seem to lean more towards the high-contrast (black on white) leoparding.

 ^^^
There's more wiggle room in their dough recipe than there is in their fire management, IMO. Hydration can vary by a point or two and still be baked properly, but nothing will help you if you don't have a hot, healthy fire, at the right size for your oven and without too big an accumulation of coals. Just like with anybody else, you can see in Yelp and Google pics where they were in the zone and where they strayed.
Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself.

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Da Michele Dough
« Reply #59 on: February 18, 2019, 02:16:20 PM »
Make a batch of 50% dough and see if you still believe him.
Can't.
Can't get Caputo 00 here without going to a %$# load more trouble and expense than I am prepared to, and it wouldn't be a worthwhile test if I wasn't using the same flour.
Anyway, use the full quote: I also said "maybe a little more if you need it".

So 55-58% maybe? I'd believe that range. It must be fairly dry, or it would be caked with flour on the bottom given how much bench flour they use when opening.

The general consensus seems to be that they end up around 55-60%.
Not what I'd call high hydration, which was my point.
You know how you reckon the "absolutely must have typo 00 flour" mantra has probably screwed over more beginners than it has helped?
I feel the same way about high hydration.

I fell for it when I first started.
My pizzas got a lot better when I woke up to the fact that all that was doing was causing me to use heaps too much bench flour.

These days I've been using a generic white flour from the new suoermarket in town.
I like the way it feels, it puffs up nice and I can cook sub 90 seconds without burning it, but 60% is a bit too wet for easy handling. Next batch I'm starting at 55 - 57%.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2019, 02:30:50 PM by wotavidone »

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