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Offline novawaly

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2018, 01:22:32 PM »
Haven’t posted in awhile.  Been busy with “life”.  Have made a few changes to my recipe.

14 inch Malnatis Recipe

100% 350g AP flour
20% 70g (20g vegetable, 50g corn)
57% 200g warm water
1 tsp ADY
1 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp salt

Very soft 1 min knead, 6hr rise, pressed down a few times

Preheat stone to 435F
Turn heat to 475 and put pizza in.  Cook for 15 mins then turn back down to 435 and put foil on top to prevent crust burning.  Cook for 30 mins total and let rest for 10 mins before cutting.

Just out of curiosity - some of the other formulations you had in prior threads had 45-46% hydration - is there a reason for the jump to 57?

Offline mrmojo1

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2018, 02:16:14 PM »
fake news!!
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Offline ipapizza

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #22 on: December 03, 2018, 08:50:46 PM »
I was surprised by the higher hydration level level also.
Have you changed your dough prep steps from this previous recipe version?

"I sift the flour and semolina.  Add oils first to flour mixture and combine with spoon.  Heat water to 110F, dissolve sugar and salt.  Sprinkle yeast over flour, then add the water.  Hand mix with spoon for about 30 seconds.  Then I add the butter (softened) to it and knead for 1 minute.  My kneading is basically one hand squeezing it lightly... flipping over and squeezing again and repeating."

When I make higher hydration NY dough, I add the oil at the end after the process. At what point do you incorporate your oil? I have a hard time mixing a large amount of oil into a hydrated dough.

Thank you for your update!







Offline Josh123

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2018, 07:38:15 PM »
First attempt at a Chicago deep dish. Excellent flavor. May have been baked too long. Bottom was a bit crunchy
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 01:19:57 AM by Josh123 »

Offline pythonic

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #24 on: January 11, 2019, 11:20:34 PM »
Just out of curiosity - some of the other formulations you had in prior threads had 45-46% hydration - is there a reason for the jump to 57?

I found I need to bake it longer and the higher hydration worked out texture wise.

If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

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Offline pythonic

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #25 on: January 11, 2019, 11:22:19 PM »
I was surprised by the higher hydration level level also.
Have you changed your dough prep steps from this previous recipe version?

"I sift the flour and semolina.  Add oils first to flour mixture and combine with spoon.  Heat water to 110F, dissolve sugar and salt.  Sprinkle yeast over flour, then add the water.  Hand mix with spoon for about 30 seconds.  Then I add the butter (softened) to it and knead for 1 minute.  My kneading is basically one hand squeezing it lightly... flipping over and squeezing again and repeating."

When I make higher hydration NY dough, I add the oil at the end after the process. At what point do you incorporate your oil? I have a hard time mixing a large amount of oil into a hydrated dough.

Thank you for your update!

Add oil into dry flour and mix (like you would with biscuit dough).
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Offline TeeJay

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #26 on: January 12, 2019, 06:29:33 AM »
Nate -

Thanks so much for this recipe!  In the last 3 weeks, I've made this 3 times (first 3 tries of any pizza, not counting a sad pillsbury dough crush Deep Dish I tried 4 years ago).  I've been super happy with the results.  I love the simplicity of this recipe (no mixer needed, no 24+ hour dough rise times).  The crust is close to perfection for me, but I have some work to do to get the cheese, sauce and toppings combo right.

Here last night's pie (adjusted dough recipe to 390g of flour to raise the sides up a bit higher as some moisture made it up and over the side of part of the previous pie):
« Last Edit: January 12, 2019, 12:37:50 PM by TeeJay »

Offline pythonic

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2019, 02:54:04 PM »
Nate -

Thanks so much for this recipe!  In the last 3 weeks, I've made this 3 times (first 3 tries of any pizza, not counting a sad pillsbury dough crush Deep Dish I tried 4 years ago).  I've been super happy with the results.  I love the simplicity of this recipe (no mixer needed, no 24+ hour dough rise times).  The crust is close to perfection for me, but I have some work to do to get the cheese, sauce and toppings combo right.

Here last night's pie (adjusted dough recipe to 390g of flour to raise the sides up a bit higher as some moisture made it up and over the side of part of the previous pie):

Crust looks excellent.  Keep at it.  You’ll get there with the insides.
If you can dodge a wrench you can dodge a ball.

Online Garvey

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #28 on: January 16, 2019, 03:43:31 PM »
I'd suggest you try dialing back the tomato product a little bit.  Let those toppings peek through a little.  Balance is key.  (i.e., you really don't need "sauce," per se--just tomatoes, really, with a tiny bit of embellishment only if desired)

Offline TeeJay

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2019, 09:23:01 AM »
Last night's pie was my best by far. 

Nate - you've really nailed the Lou Malnati's crust density and texture with your process.  Lou's has a dense/flaky/layered crust, which I much prefer over something more bready like Giordano's.  I mostly followed your recipe and process with some of BTB's recommendations.  What I did differently:

-15% Semolina stirred into the water immediately before adding the water per your process. I stir into water so I don't get the mealy texture from the Semolina that is preserved in the oil clumps.
-BTB's oil recipe: 12% corn oil, 6% EVOO, 6% softened butter (butter was mixed in at end).
-Coated pan with EVOO and Corn oil.  Nate - Are you still using butter flavored Crisco?
-I didn't put the foil on top so I think cheese was slightly overdone on the edges. Every time I try the foil, the foil makes contact with top of pizza and a decent amount of the Romano and a little sauce sticks to the foil.  Nate - how do you prevent this?

I think a big key to your recipe is sprinkling the ADY onto the dough after all other ingredients are halfway mixed in.  If I understand it correctly, proofing the yeast in water is going to activate the yeast more and cause more lightness and breadiness.  But with Malnati's deep dish (or any deep dish in my opinion), we don't want breadiness. We want dense, flaky crust.

-I still put a little too much sauce on the sausage side.
-Garvey - your sausage is killer and I didn't give it the proper resting time (making your thin crust Tuesday, but had to prematurely try some of the sausage on this deep dish).
-Next time I'll try without Semolina and see what I think.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2019, 05:36:00 PM by TeeJay »

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Offline TeeJay

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2019, 01:40:00 PM »
I was surprised by the higher hydration level level also.
Have you changed your dough prep steps from this previous recipe version?

"I sift the flour and semolina.  Add oils first to flour mixture and combine with spoon.  Heat water to 110F, dissolve sugar and salt.  Sprinkle yeast over flour, then add the water.  Hand mix with spoon for about 30 seconds.  Then I add the butter (softened) to it and knead for 1 minute.  My kneading is basically one hand squeezing it lightly... flipping over and squeezing again and repeating."

When I make higher hydration NY dough, I add the oil at the end after the process. At what point do you incorporate your oil? I have a hard time mixing a large amount of oil into a hydrated dough.

Thank you for your update!

You quoted Pythonic's process from April 2013.  Here is his process almost a year later from February of 2014:

"Here is the process.   I use a bowl, whisk for dry ingredients and a spoon.   Mix all dry ingredients minus the yeast.  Add oil and mix in halfway with spoon then add in the water.  Mix half way again and next sprinkle in the yeast.  Mix again with your spoon until it all comes together.  Then you need to hand mix it gently for about 1.5-2 mins (I use one hand for this).  You want to make sure you get most of the clumps of oil incorporated into the dough.  After your done cover and put into oven with the light on for 5hrs."

I see two main differences. In the newer process, mix the salt and sugar with the flower (i.e. not dissolving in water) and add the yeast after you've mixed the water into the dough halfway.

I'm still just learning but my guess is that adding the yeast later makes the dough more dense/layered/flaky and less bready.  If you proof the yeast in water, it should be more bready as the yeast will be more active.

Offline Brewer

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2019, 05:07:02 PM »
14 inch Malnatis Recipe

100% 350g AP flour
20% 70g (20g vegetable, 50g corn)
57% 200g warm water
1 tsp ADY
1 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp salt

Peter, or any other qualified pizza wizard: 

Can you please tell me how you would take the easiest and most proper path to convert Nate's 14 inch Malnatis recipe here down to a 12 inch.  Ive been trying to figure out the best way to do it.  I'm running into a couple of problems/ obstacles here.  The ADY, Salt, and Sugar are not given as bakers percentages.  I looked on line at several sites and it appears that the weights are:  ADY = 2.99g/t, Sea Salt = 2.61g/0.5t, and Sugar = 3.80g/t.  The other problem I am running into is there is no thickness factor listed, or a final dough ball weight.  At this point I tried using the Forum's deep dish dough calculator to crunch numbers that would give me Nate's final formula of 350 g AP, 200 g H2O ect.. on a 14 inch pie.  It hasn't been efficient doing it this way, and after an hour or so it's just not working out.  Iv'e also spent quite a bit of time on the Forum's advance search engine trying to look up deep dish thickness factors and their conversions.  It feels like I'm just spinning my wheels and there may be an easier way to come to this size conversion.  Can you please show me the light on the proper way to approach this task at hand.

So far I believe I have came up with the missing percentages for ADY, Sugar, and Salt based on Nate's formula and the ingredients weight information I found on line:

2.99g ADY/350g Flour = 0.85% ADY
3.8g Sugar/ 350g Flour = 1.09% Sugar
2.61g salt/ 350g Flour = 0.75% Salt

 I believe Nate's provided formula with the new percentages and weights for a 14 inch pie should be?  Please check my figures in case I am wrong.

100% 350g AP Flour
20% 70g Oil (20g Vegetable, 50g corn)
57% 200g warm Water
0.85% 2.99g ADY
1.09% 3.8g Sugar
0.75% 2.61g Salt
629.4g Dough Ball for 14 inch deep dish Malnatis
 
Thank you very much.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2019, 08:58:31 PM by Brewer »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2019, 06:57:15 PM »
Brewer,

You did well for as far as you went. But for me to use the deep-dish dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html, I used the conversion data built into that tool. Also, I calculated all of the percents to several decimal places to get the final results as close to what Pythonic (Nate) did.

So, in converting Nate's recipe to a precise baker's percent format, I came up with the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (57.1429%):
ADY (1.07999%):
Salt (0.79734%):
Corn Oil (14.2857%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.7143%):
Sugar (1.13906%):
Total (180.15929%):
350 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
200 g  |  7.05 oz | 0.44 lbs
3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
2.79 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
50 g | 1.76 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.11 tsp | 3.7 tbsp
20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.4 tsp | 1.47 tbsp
3.99 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
630.56 g | 22.24 oz | 1.39 lbs | TF = N/A

Where things get tougher is to calculate a thickness factor so that you can scale down Nate's recipe to a 12" size. What makes the exercise more difficult is that the thickness factor for a deep-dish dough where the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan is calculated differently than for a flat round pizza. Member Mike (Boy Hits Car), with whom I worked to design the deep-dish dough calculating tool, came to the rescue and figured out how to calculate the thickness factor for a deep-dish dough pushed up the sides of the pan.

So, what I did tonight was to select the Thickness Factor option of the deep-dish dough calculating tool. But to use that method, I had to know the size of the pan Nate used for his dough, whether the pan he used was straight-sided or sloping-sided, and how far up the sides of the pan Nate pushed the dough. To find this data, I searched Nate's posts on the forum. I found that the pan was 14", straight-sided, and that he pushed the dough up the sides of the pan by about 1.25". I entered this data into the deep-dish dough calculating tool and then started entering numbers in the thickness factor block until I got something close to the above dough formulation. That value turned out to be 0.112379. As you can see from my post at Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12243.msg115759;topicseen#msg115759, the thickness factor I arrived at fits nicely in the range noted in that post.

Now, for your 12" size deep-dish pizza, and assuming that you use a straight-sided pan and push the dough up the sides of that pan by 1.25", and assuming that I did everything correctly, the final dough formulation using the thickness factor of 0.112379 should look like this:

Flour (100%):
Water (57.1429%):
ADY (1.07999%):
Salt (0.79734%):
Corn Oil (14.2857%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.7143%):
Sugar (1.13906%):
Total (180.15929%):
266.67 g  |  9.41 oz | 0.59 lbs
152.38 g  |  5.38 oz | 0.34 lbs
2.88 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.13 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
38.1 g | 1.34 oz | 0.08 lbs | 8.47 tsp | 2.82 tbsp
15.24 g | 0.54 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.36 tsp | 1.12 tbsp
3.04 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
480.43 g | 16.95 oz | 1.06 lbs | TF = 0.112379

If you do not plan to use a straight-sided pan and to also push the dough up the sides of that pan by 1.25", then a new and different thickness factor may be required. In fact, if the pan is sloping-sided, the tool will ask for the top and bottom diameters and the depth of the pan (in inches).

Good luck, and let us know how things turn out if you decide to proceed with a 12" version of Nate's recipe. Of course, you should be able to round off numbers to make the exercise go a bit easier.

Peter

Offline Brewer

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Re: 14 inch Malnatis
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2019, 08:52:59 PM »
Peter,  thank you very much for every thing you do for all of us here.  I really appreciate it!  That was an excellent explanation of what I was trying to find out, but was struggling so hard to get there on my own :(.  I am really excited to try this formula out.  I will post my results as soon as I can.  Thanks again :)

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