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Offline Oldwood

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Mastering Pizza
« on: August 28, 2018, 09:09:19 PM »
How too make “Old School Naples Dough at 60% Hydration “ is just one of the topics found in
“The Art and Practice of Handmade Pizza,Focaccia, and Calzone Mastering Pizza” by Marc Vetri and David Joachim..lots of recipes and stories found in this book you can hold in your hands.

Offline dzpiez

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2018, 09:28:02 PM »
Just got my copy today too.

Offline corkd

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2018, 11:34:30 AM »
I would be interested in what you all think.

Offline bakerbill

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2018, 09:54:11 PM »
First impression: lots of good stuff, a serious pizza book.I am anxious to try the recipes.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2018, 03:09:44 PM »
 Does not use Italian flour in his recipes. I like the addition of fresh ground wheat and the use of a sifter to remove some of the bran. also the pizzas from his cast iron skillet method look amazing.

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Online jsaras

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2018, 06:19:27 PM »
Is there anything in the book that hasn’t been covered more thoroughly than the forum?
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2018, 01:34:57 PM »
Got the book in a library, read it but haven't tried it out yet. I really like his discussion of the various factors involved in pizza production and baking - he is very thorough in talking about different ovens, flours, yeasts, etc, and I definitely learned a lot, especially about how WBO's work differently from other ovens.

What is new?

-Strong recommendation to get one's own stone milling setup, and add about 10%-20% of freshly stone ground flour to your pizzas for more taste.
-Recommendations to use 57-60% hydration (with recipes included) for high temp ovens (700F+) and 67-80% hydration doughs for home ovens running at 450-550F. This was also covered in a similar fashion in Ken Forkish's book Elements of Pizza, although Ken pretty much sticks to 70% for almost everything.
-Roman pizza dough is very different from what others use. It is high in sugar and EVOO, although he recommends using it at 57% hydro in the WBO at 700F. I'm wondering if this will burn, but worth a shot.
-Unusual flavor combinations, pizza desserts and stuffed pizza recipes.

I'm mostly scratching my head about his advice to add 10% freshly ground whole wheat flour to recipes to add freshness, because he also relies heavily on King Arthur Bread Flour for most of his recipes. I personally have never been happy with KABF - it seems coursely ground and malted. It's neither great as a replacement for 00 nor is it the best flour to use for NY style pizza, so I wonder if he's advising it simply because it's easy to find in stores? It's puzzling that he makes such a big deal about using super high quality fresh flour (even home milled) but then directs people to KABF. Seems to me that it's easy to find something much better than KABF, but maybe that's just me.

Overall a very fun read, definitely designed more for the advanced students of pizza. For example, his basic NP dough uses a 24 hour fresh yeast starter followed by 24 hour bulk in fridge and 24 hours balled in fridge. I think this is worth a shot for sure. 

Alex
« Last Edit: August 31, 2018, 01:58:22 PM by DoouBall »

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 12:26:05 PM »
Made the Roman Pizza Dough and baked up a couple of pizzas this weekend. They turned out great! This was a major contrast to the normal Neapolitan sourdough based pizzas that I make. I went out to get fresh yeast (Marc loves fresh best) and actually used both sugar and oil in my pizza dough for the first time in ages.

The dough is kneaded for 11 minutes total in the stand mixer which I expected to be way too long, but it just worked perfectly! At the end of mixing, the dough was soft like a baby's butt and stretched into the most perfect window pane I have ever made. I was already impressed. One note: I don't care for King Arthur Bread Flour, so I used a blend of Central Milling Flours (00 and Type 70 Normal) instead.

I followed his recipes for Parma(Arugula, Mozzarella, Fontina) and Lombarda (Fennel Sausage, Bitto Cheese, Mozzarella, Egg) pizzas and everyone loved the results. This is a simple straight dough, which I gave only a 36 hour rise in balls, but the results were excellent. I had a few slices of Lombarda left for breakfast today and they also warmed up perfectly, unlike the NP dough pizzas which usually taste a bit leathery on the second time around. So all in all, this recipe is a keeper, and I'm going to buy the book on Amazon.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 12:27:46 PM »
A couple more pics. These were baked in a Blackstone at 630F-650F for 3 minutes each.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2018, 06:47:28 PM »
those look excellent. have not seen the roman dough recipe yet must try it. very nice post!!!

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2018, 02:16:14 PM »
If this book is anything like the pizza I had at his location in Philly recently, I'll take a hard pass.

The forum remains the best source of information on pizza and it's free!

10% freshly milled flour is a lot. I have a Mockmill and it really changes the texture and feel of the dough if not sifted. Even at 5% I noticed way more chewiness in my dough - in a bad way.

Got the book in a library, read it but haven't tried it out yet. I really like his discussion of the various factors involved in pizza production and baking - he is very thorough in talking about different ovens, flours, yeasts, etc, and I definitely learned a lot, especially about how WBO's work differently from other ovens.

What is new?

-Strong recommendation to get one's own stone milling setup, and add about 10%-20% of freshly stone ground flour to your pizzas for more taste.
-Recommendations to use 57-60% hydration (with recipes included) for high temp ovens (700F+) and 67-80% hydration doughs for home ovens running at 450-550F. This was also covered in a similar fashion in Ken Forkish's book Elements of Pizza, although Ken pretty much sticks to 70% for almost everything.
-Roman pizza dough is very different from what others use. It is high in sugar and EVOO, although he recommends using it at 57% hydro in the WBO at 700F. I'm wondering if this will burn, but worth a shot.
-Unusual flavor combinations, pizza desserts and stuffed pizza recipes.

I'm mostly scratching my head about his advice to add 10% freshly ground whole wheat flour to recipes to add freshness, because he also relies heavily on King Arthur Bread Flour for most of his recipes. I personally have never been happy with KABF - it seems coursely ground and malted. It's neither great as a replacement for 00 nor is it the best flour to use for NY style pizza, so I wonder if he's advising it simply because it's easy to find in stores? It's puzzling that he makes such a big deal about using super high quality fresh flour (even home milled) but then directs people to KABF. Seems to me that it's easy to find something much better than KABF, but maybe that's just me.

Overall a very fun read, definitely designed more for the advanced students of pizza. For example, his basic NP dough uses a 24 hour fresh yeast starter followed by 24 hour bulk in fridge and 24 hours balled in fridge. I think this is worth a shot for sure. 

Alex

Online timgiuffi

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2018, 05:15:56 PM »
If this book is anything like the pizza I had at his location in Philly recently, I'll take a hard pass.

The forum remains the best source of information on pizza and it's free!

10% freshly milled flour is a lot. I have a Mockmill and it really changes the texture and feel of the dough if not sifted. Even at 5% I noticed way more chewiness in my dough - in a bad way.

I think Vetri is no longer involved with the restaurants sold to Urban Outfitters. I went to the pizza place a few times 5 years ago or so and remember liking it.
Tim

Offline jkb

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2018, 07:15:33 AM »
I'm not sure if I've seen this one.  We get so much from the library, I can't keep it straight.  Maybe I'm getting it again.

John

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2018, 08:01:20 PM »
Tried the Neapolitan Dough Recipe with 60% hydration, and used 10% freshly milled whole wheat flour per the recipe options. The combination of pizza sauce, roasted fennel and fennel sausage was excellent and will definitely be repeated. The pizza sauce is easy to make and very good! The dough was flavorful for a fresh yeast base, and had excellent bubble structure as you can see in the side picture. However, it was very chewy - definitely more than I like for a Neapolitan dough. I'm guessing that this is due to 3 factors

1. Large percentage of 24 hour poolish.
2. Mostly King Arthur Bread Flour (12.7% protein)
3. 12 minutes total of stand mixer kneading - much longer than most other recipes.

The dough was also a bit dry. I will probably give this dough recipe a pass, as there are so many better recipes for this style.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2018, 01:29:44 AM »
It's more likely the freshly milled whole wheat flour than the other 3 factors. I've found at 5% I get a real chewiness/heartiness in the pizza I'm not sure I like.

That being said, I've used t85 flour at up to 60% of the total flour and the texture is still very good (though, not a flavor profile I like.)

I think if you sift that freshly milled flour a bit, to a t85 equivalent, you texture will improve significantly.

Tried the Neapolitan Dough Recipe with 60% hydration, and used 10% freshly milled whole wheat flour per the recipe options. The combination of pizza sauce, roasted fennel and fennel sausage was excellent and will definitely be repeated. The pizza sauce is easy to make and very good! The dough was flavorful for a fresh yeast base, and had excellent bubble structure as you can see in the side picture. However, it was very chewy - definitely more than I like for a Neapolitan dough. I'm guessing that this is due to 3 factors

1. Large percentage of 24 hour poolish.
2. Mostly King Arthur Bread Flour (12.7% protein)
3. 12 minutes total of stand mixer kneading - much longer than most other recipes.

The dough was also a bit dry. I will probably give this dough recipe a pass, as there are so many better recipes for this style.

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2018, 11:34:32 AM »
Thanks hotsawce - I appreciate your insights. I actually bought a Vollum mesh 50 strainer which is very well constructed and looks like it will last a long time:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MS2OAQ8/?tag=pmak-20

It's a little slow to strain but removes about 30% of total weight leaving a type 70 flour. I'll be playing with using this flour for bread and pizza. On a side note, I found that feeding my sourdough starter with the fresh flour increased the bubbling significantly.


Offline bakerbill

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Re: Mastering Pizza
« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2018, 08:50:02 AM »
I have tried the 70% hydration recipe for Neapolitan but have not been successful. It is like soup. Has anyone else tried this recipe. Perhaps I am missing something.

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