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Offline sk

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SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« on: September 01, 2018, 09:17:53 PM »
Hello Pizzaiolos:

I am a relatively new owner of a Pizza Party 70x70 and have made several ok IDY pies over the last few weeks using Stella Culinary's Neopolitan directions.However, I would like to make SD pies.  My thanks to all those who I have been asking questions of the last few weeks.  Today I made 3 SD pies with varying degress of success.  But, as Craig says, practice is the best teacher.

I have been using 59% hydration but bumped this batch to 62% or tried.  The dough in the KA bowl seemed soupy and wet and I did not put all the water in.  Perhaps mistake #1.  My targeted dough balls of 250g came out at 242g each.

I used Craigs cooler method and put the BF dough in the coller at 68 degrees.  It's hot in Georgia so I left it outside overningt.  12 hours later it was at 63 degrees.  I balled the dough and left them at 72degrees for 2 hours  and then at room temp for 10 more, about 79 degrees  Target ferment time of 24 hours.

Results were not quite proofed enough for the first pies.  The last one was ok.  All the dough balls were quite sticky and became very thin in the middle of the pie quickly.  No dough rise at all in the middle of the pie. 

I used the fire guard and perhaps did not have the oven at a full 425c.  It took about 2 minutes for each pie to cook.  The first was not leoparded at all.  Second and third were better.  Pictures are of the third pie (the best of three).

Please critique.


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Offline Heikjo

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2018, 02:41:22 AM »
Congratulations on your new oven!

Your pie looks decent, but of course you need time and experience to perfect it.

What was your recipe and dough handling procedure?

With a good recipe, fermentation and final dough handling is maybe 80% of the result, along with baking obviously.

If you used Craig's SD chart, remember that it's just a guideline. You may have to use more or less starter or fermentation time/temperature for your starter and your flour. Especially when working with long fermentation times and homemade boxes, you need time and experience to figure out what works. The more consistent you are able to be from each time, the easier it is to evaluate your progress and make changes. Room temp can be fickle since it one day can be 77F and 73F the next. This has a big effect on the dough when it's sitting there for 12 hours. You do have a fairly large window where the dough is usable, but it might get more difficult to handle the more fermented it gets.

I don't own a WFO, so I can't give much help on getting the temperature up, but you might be able to get it higher and bake faster. Did you dome the pies during bake?
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2018, 09:30:09 AM »
What flour are you using? 62% shouldn't be overly sticky? The picture of the dough stretching doesn't look at all sticky. That being said, 59% is fine for Neapolitan. Your crumb looks pretty good. It looks like you had a good bit of heat, as does the bottom. I think with a bit more fermenting and just a bit more heat, you'll start to see some leoparding. How are you measuring the temp? With the thermometer on the oven? If so, you really need a non-contact IR thermometer to measure the deck temp (be sure it goes up to 1000F). This is the one I use: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07FY1Z44M/?tag=pmak-20

When we talk temperature here, it's almost always deck temp, and without that point of reference, it will be harder to help. In general, it's an important tool, particularly in the learning process. From the picture of the bottom, I'm guessing your oven has the firebrick floor tiles. If so, as Heikjo mentioned, you'll probably need to dome the pizza for the last part of the bake. This is lifting the pie off the deck with a turning peel and finishing it in the dome of the oven (dropping it to the deck a couple times to turn it in between). Doing this dramatically shifts the heat balance where there is far mare heat on the top of the pie than the bottom allowing very quick cooking of the top without further charring of the bottom.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2018, 10:54:33 AM »
Heikjo and Craig:

Thanks so much for the input. 

100% Caputo Blue 00 Flour
62% Hydration target, (missed that somehow)
1.5% Salt
2.0% Ischia Starter

Craig's pizza sauce recipe.

I used Craig's chart as a guideline and 24 hours total ferment time.  I totally agree and time and experience to figure that out.  The stickiness was I put the balls in lightly oiled Tupperware containers and it really did not want to come out as a ball.  When I scooped it out onto the board, it was not a round circle and needed working.  It was very soft and the middle quickly became to thin.  Again, more experience needed on the final dough handling.  I have an inexpensive IR thermometer which read around 775 F on the standard firebrick floor.  As a starting place, would you say dome it after 60 seconds?

The pizzas were tasty enough, and the dough flavor was very good.  I must say, the whole challenge of variables of Ischia starter, long fermentation times at roomish temperatures and a wooden fire do require a lot of experience.  However, with enough Chianti and many weekends, it should be a fun process.

Craig, I will invest in the a better IR thermometer.

Thank you both again for all your input, both direct and what I have read from other members.

Below is my Mushroom, Red Pepper and Salami pizza.  Leoparding was slightly better.

« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 11:09:11 AM by Pete-zza »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2018, 11:28:27 AM »
Don't pull the ball out of a tupperware container. Turn it over and let it fall out on it's own so you don't damage the structure. Better yet, use cheap plastic twist-tie food bags with a quick spray or spray oil - you tear the bag open from the top, and the ball rolls right out. Drop the ball in the bag, squeeze out the air, twist the end of the bag, and tuck it under the ball. No twist-tie needed. Wallmart sells them for ~$2 for 100.

When you dome is going to be a function of the oven temperature. Peek under the bottom of the pizza and dome before it burns. A good rule of thumb is to dome before you think you need to dome. It's just another one of the many things that you'll pick up pretty quickly with experience.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2018, 11:29:57 AM »
I used Craig's chart as a guideline and 24 hours total ferment time.  I totally agree and time and experience to figure that out.  The stickiness was I put the balls in lightly oiled Tupperware containers and it really did not want to come out as a ball.  When I scooped it out onto the board, it was not a round circle and needed working.  It was very soft and the middle quickly became to thin.
The balls will be stickier when fermented in plastic containers than fi. wooden boxes. My doughs flatten out and sticks to the containers and I don't really see a way to avoid that when using plastic, unless you lower the hydration a lot. I still find the dough manageable, but don't carve it out. Just flip it upside-down and let gravity work.

Did you still ball the dough after 12 hours? A dough with little elasticity that easily becomes thin and tears is often a sign of too fermented, too long time in balls or a combination of both. Photos of your dough balls would be helpful in analyzing your efforts. A photo when you ball and one before you take them out. Maybe also a shot from the bottom of the container if it's transparent. Are you able to gauge how much the balls have expanded? I find this tricky since they go from a ball to a flat disc during fermentation. Either way, you can try lowering the amount of starter or ball them later next time. Most that I've seen leave them in balls for 6-12 hours. I have a feeling that higher temperatures require a shorter time in balls. If you ferment at 60F, maybe 12 hours is a good time, while at 80F maybe 4-6 hours is enough.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2018, 11:32:05 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 07:21:42 PM »
Craig and Heikjo:

Great suggestions, I will implement them.  I like the ideas of just turning the Tupperware over.  I agree on the balls tend to flatten into a more of a disk and it's difficult to gauge the rise.  I will reduce the ball time to perhaps 4-6 hours next time as the house temp in the afternoon probably does approach 79.  Eerything else will remain the same except shooting for a little more heat in the oven and doming the pizza.

I will report the next time and thank you both again!
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 07:28:16 PM »
I like the ideas of just turning the Tupperware over.  I agree on the balls tend to flatten into a more of a disk and it's difficult to gauge the rise. 

If the containers you're using are clear, you can learn a lot more about your dough by looking at the structure from the bottom than you ever will by trying to gauge the rise from the top.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Heikjo

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2018, 01:49:22 AM »
Here are a few examples of what the bottom of the dough might look like inside a transparent plastic container. After a while in fermentation, you will start noticing a few small bubbles, which will increase as time goes on. In time they will grow larger, but still mostly circular in shape. If left for even longer will make caverns with irregular shapes, looking stringy and a bit rough.

The first photo has come some way in the process, maybe 36/48 hours, not yet ready for baking IIRC. The second photo is taken momentarily after I flipped the container upside down to let the dough fall out. I think this one was a bit overfermented, but still made a great pie. The third has fermented past the ideal point when I want to use it. The dough is still usable at this point, but will be less elastic and will tear more easily, requiring more gentle handling.

I agree with Craig that the bottom tells you a lot.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2018, 09:40:38 AM »
Heikjo and Craig:

Thanks guys.  I will use the Walmart bags next time and look at the bottom.  Thanks for the pics also as I was not really sure what I needed to look for if I could see the dough!  My Tupperware containers are not transparent enough.
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Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2018, 08:51:48 PM »
Hello Pizza Masters:

Here are the results of my latest efforts in my Pizza Party 70x70.  I have been trying to implement all your suggestions and those of others I have been reading on the forum.

Tonight I made 4 pizzas.  Two with IDY and two with Ischia starter.  Craig said practice so, I did!  Also, I purchased a new IR thermometer and a new 8 inch metal turning peel which I need to learn how to use.  I am going to show the results in two posts for your thoughts and replies.

First 2
100% Caputo Blue 00 Flour
62% Hydration
1.5% Salt
.3% IDY

24 hours in fridge bulk ferment.  9 hours in fridge in balls.  2 hours on counter.
Dough opened nicely, was easy to work.  Tasted great.

Oven floor at 800C, need a little practice with the new peel.  Standard floor so I try to stay around 800C.   Bottom blackens just a little.

Margherita
Mushroom, Peppers, Salami, Part Skim, Low Mosture Motz
Crumb




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Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2018, 09:07:46 PM »
Now Results from the 2 pizzas with the Ischia starter.

100% Caputo Blue 00 Flour
62% Hydration target
1.5% Salt
6.0% Ischia Starter

2 hours autolyse
11 hours bulk ferment at 70F, 21C
11 hours in balls at 70F, 21C

The balls sort of flattened out and were a bit more sticky than the IDY balls but still easy enough to open and work.  The suggestion of simply turning the container over and letting gravity work was perfect.  I could not tell any perceptable difference in flavor between the two doughs and my wife liked the IDY flavor better.  The crumb on the IDY pizzas was much better than the sourdough.

Bottom of sourdough in plastic container.
Sausage and Fresh Motz.
Prosciutto, Caramelized Onions, Provolone and Fresh Motz - The best looking pie of the night.
Sourdough Crumb





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Offline SAUZER.ITALY

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2018, 05:49:04 AM »
good pizzas, at what temperature was the oven? good that you take pictures of the section on the edge of the pizza.  :pizza:

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2018, 09:52:31 AM »
Your pizza looks like it's coming along nicely!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2018, 10:06:50 AM »
Thank you Sauzer and Craig!   :)  I appreciate the complements from you two guys!!

Sauzer, I try to keep the floor around 425c.  The oven varies when you open and close the door and the amount of fire over the top but generally I try to put the pizza in when the thermometer is at 475c.

Craig, did the dough in the plastic container look about right from the bottom?  Anyone have any thoughts on why the pizzas with the natural leavening have less crumb than the ones with IDY?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2018, 10:08:47 AM »
I think you could give it some more fermentation time and that might also lead to a larger cornicione.

Commercial yeast such as IDY is designed specifically to give lots of foolproof rise.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline SAUZER.ITALY

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2018, 03:27:08 AM »
OK, if I can give you some advice, always keep the flame on the corner of the oven when cooking pizza, you need a little more heat. Spin the pizza several times so do not edge the edges. The dough is excellent.  :pizza:

Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2018, 07:40:14 AM »
Craig, the IDY is definitely a lot simpler to deal with.  I will let the SD based dough ferment a bit longer next time.

Sauzer, thank you for that tip!  I have the fire down the entire left side of the oven now.  I will try to bank it more in the back corner.  I hope to see some of your great pizza pictures very soon!
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Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2018, 09:21:59 PM »
Again tonight I made 4 pizzas, 2 IDY and 2 with Ischia starter.  Following are the results.  First pictures will be with IDY second post with pictures with pizzas made with the natural starter.

My first picture is of my two doughs after bulk fermentation.  IDY for 24 hours in the fridge and SD after 12 hours at 70F, 21C.

Both doughs ended up opening easily and stretching well. 

First 2
100% Caputo Blue 00 Flour
62% Hydration
1.5% Salt
.3% IDY

Tasted good, soft and chewy, just an ok crumb.

First pizza had a hot fire, second had a lot of nice coals but little flame.  Suggestions on flame management would be helpful

Salami, Mushrooms, Red Pepper
Ricotta, Provolone, Artichoke





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Offline sk

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Re: SD RT in Pizza Party 70x70 New User
« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2018, 09:32:47 PM »
Following are the pizzas with the SD starter.


100% Caputo Blue 00 Flour
62% Hydration
1.5% Salt
6% Starter

Again, opened easily and stretched without an issue.  Tasted ok, not any better than the IDY at all and had little crumb.  I was a bit disapointed in it.

Second pizza which was the last of the night and a fire that was dying down and was not quite as hot.  I turned it and domed it maybe 30 seconds longer.  I don't know if it was that or the longer fermentation but it was terrific.  Probably the best dough of the night.  The crumb was also the best of the night.

Sausage, Mushrooms and Carmilized Onions
Ricotta, Pesto, Mushrooms
Crumb


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