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Author Topic: I've been playing around with The Dough Doctor's dough recipe... Thoughts???  (Read 704 times)

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Offline Ric Clint

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I've been playing around with Tom's "Basic Dough Recipe" on YOUTUBE (the video's, Part #1 and #2, are linked down below):

I've made this dough a few times using the King Arthur's Special Patent Flour (12.7% Protein).
I also weighed all of my ingredients on a Digital Scale to be accurate.
I used a 60Quart Hobart Mixer.
My building was around 73* degrees.
I followed everything exactly the way Tom does in the 2 video's.

NOTE: I'm gonna follow this ORIGINAL post up with a follow-up comment right after so as to not cram too much into this same text and try to eliminate a little confusion.


Tom's recipe calls for:
Flour 100%
Salt 1.75%
Sugar 2%
IDY 0.375%
Water 58 to 60% (70 to 75F)
Oil 2%


The FIRST batch I made was a batch using 60% Water so my numbers were as follows (PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK MY NUMBERS... I'm not the best with Baker's Percentages but I think my weights are accurate):
Flour 100%  .......  12.5lbs
Salt 1.75%  .......  3.5oz
Sugar 2%  .......  4.0oz
IDY 0.375%  .......  21grams
Water 60% (74F)  .......  7.5lbs
EVO Oil 2%  .......  4.0oz

My "finished dough temp" was 87* degrees.
Since my Dough Balls were 17oz (for a 14" pizza), I left them "Cross-Stacked" in the Cooler for exactly 3 hours, and then "Nested" or "Down-Stacked" them.
After 24 hours, I removed them and made some pizzas by running them through my Middleby Marshall PS360 Conveyor Oven.


The SECOND batch I made was a batch using 64% Water so my numbers were as follows (PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK MY NUMBERS... I'm not the best with Baker's Percentages but I think my weights are accurate):
Flour 100%  .......  12.5lbs
Salt 1.75%  .......  3.5oz
Sugar 2%  .......  4.0oz
IDY 0.375%  .......  21grams
Water 64% (74F)  .......  8.0lbs
EVO Oil 2%  .......  4.0oz

My "finished dough temp" was 84* degrees.
Since my Dough Balls were 17oz (for a 14" pizza), I left them "Cross-Stacked" in the Cooler for exactly 3 hours, and then "Nested" or "Down-Stacked" them.
After 24 hours, I removed them and made some pizzas by running them through my Middleby Marshall PS360 Conveyor Oven.


Now, the reason I made the SECOND batch, was because the FIRST batch that had 60% Water, the finished Crust after baking was a little soft. And I thought I had heard somewhere one time that to make a Pizza Crust a little more crispy is to use more Water, hence the reason for the SECOND batch at 64% Water. And the SECOND batch was actually a little more crispy so I guess what I had thought I heard one time was correct.

Thanks!



« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 02:39:33 AM by Ric Clint »

Offline Ric Clint

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I've attached 3 pictures of my Dough Balls. I don't think the difference in me changing the Water from 60% to 64% would be the issue, because the Dough Balls in these pics are pretty much the way both batches looked (although, these pics are from the 64% Water batch).
--  1st pic is 1 minute after coming out of the Dough Mixer.
--  2nd pic is 24 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.
--  3rd pic is 48 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.

Is this normal? Are the Dough Balls a little too big at their different stages in time?
By the 48 hours period, they looked so huge that I didn't even try to make them into pizza's.

What would cause this, maybe too much IDY Yeast? I know a guy that runs a Pizzeria and he told me one time that for a batch of 12.5lbs of Flour, they only use 5grams of Yeast (although his Yeast is Active Dry Yeast whereas mine was Instant Dry Yeast), which is 4 times less than what I used. And thinking about what he said, that got me to thinking about a post I seen a while back where somebody said that alot of professional pizza makers are using less and less Yeast in their pizza doughs if I remember correctly... I could be wrong though?

So what can I do to slow down the process of the Dough Balls getting so big so quick so that I can use them over the course of 72 hours or so? Is backing off on the Yeast a little bit the "answer"?

And while I'm thinking about it, what all else can I do to add a little more crispiness to the crust... is going up to like 67% or 70% Water a viable option?

Thanks!


« Last Edit: October 13, 2018, 02:44:28 AM by Ric Clint »

Offline foreplease

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This is a good post. I think you are going to hear “reduce IDY by about 1/3 to 0.253%” according to
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511818#msg511818
but I will be interested in what the consensus right answer is. It’s good looking dough.
-Tony
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Actually, the dough balls look perfect for the times indicated. What were you anticipating? If you reduce the IDY the dough may not be fully ready to use in 24-hours but instead most likely closer to 48-hours. Most pizzerias want to be able to use the dough on the day after it's made and still be able to use it at 48 to 72-hours. That's what that specific dough formula and procedure were designed for but like most things you can modify it to meet your specific needs. If you want to target a dough that will be better to use at 72-hours my recommendation is to just reduce the targeted finished dough temperature (75 to 80F range). If you reduce the yeast level there is always a possibility that you can get into a situation where you begin to reduce the oven spring properties of the dough which then opens a "Pandora's Box" of dough issues, the biggest of which is the development of the "dreaded gum line", followed by reduction of crumb porosity, loss of crispiness or crust turns soft soon after baking, toughness/chewiness, even bottom crust color issues can be experienced, like I said.....Pandora's Box.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Ric Clint,

I checked out your numbers and they are fine.

I tend to agree with Tom on controlling finished dough temperature as opposed to yeast quantity. For years, I did not know which was dominant--temperatures or yeast quantity. So, I did an experiment where I tried to extend the duration of cold fermentation. I am not talking a few days, but rather weeks, like three weeks or more. So, in my experiment, I used a minuscule amount of yeast, along with ice cold water. I even added the yeast (dry IDY) at the end of the mixing process to further delay the fermentation process. As it turned out, the dough just sat there in the refrigerator and did nothing. Even after days, it still just sat there. So, I ended the experiment. But, interestingly, before that experiment, I was able to make doughs that could cold ferment from one to three weeks and produce decent pizzas using normal amounts of yeast and normal finished dough temperatures or maybe somewhat less (by using colder water). My conclusion was that temperatures dominated yeast quantity. If you are interested, I posted on my experiments in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251.

Peter 

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Offline QwertyJuan

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If it were me?? I would try to get the finished dough temp down to about 75 degrees or less. I like to end up in the 70 degree range. How do you do this?? Add some ice to your water.  :chef:

Offline Ric Clint

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Oh, and I forgot... here's a 4th pic, which is 72 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.


Offline Ric Clint

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Thanks to everybody who responded! I'm about to open my place and want to have all the kinks worked out before I open so I really appreciate all your help!

The Dough Doctor and others,
From the sounds of things, it seems like my next step in experimenting should be to adjust the "finished dough temp" before I adjust the Yeast amount...
So... where my SECOND batch with the 64% Water had a "finished dough temp" of 84* degrees... where you recommend to reduce the targeted finished dough temperature down to about the 75 to 80F range... will that honestly slow down the fermentation significantly? Not that I'm questioning you or anything, lol... but I'm just trying to understand how the "chemistry" works/relates between the Yeast and the Water Temperature and I know you have it down to a science so I appreciate your knowledge!

And a few more questions:
(1.) So to get that "finished dough temp" down to say around 75* degrees or so... just guessing here, but that would probably have my Water Temperature at around 65* degrees or so I'm guessing... I'm not saying 65* degrees is warm, but is a 65* degree Water Temp still "warm" enough to get the fermentation going at a decent rate?

(2.) I'm currently using the King Arthur's Special Patent Flour (12.7% Protein)... but from an experimentation point of view, if I kept the dough formula the same as my original dough batches but instead used the King Arthur's Sir Lancelot (14% Protein)... what would be the difference between the 2 batches of dough as far as like the crispiness of the baked pizza, as well as like the ease of stretching the dough into a skin? What would be the real difference between them?

(3.) Is it true that adding more Water does indeed increase the crispiness of the baked pizza? What are the limits in which one should go? I'm at 64% Water, so would going to like 67% add more crisp without compromising anything?


Thanks!



Offline Pete-zza

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Ric Clint,

With respect to the finished dough temperature, many years ago Tom wrote an article on that subject for PMQ. The article is no longer in print but fortunately it was archived at the Wayback Machine, at:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

Peter

Offline QwertyJuan

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Trust me... As a pizza maker by profession.... Finished dough temp makes ALL the difference in the world. Use ice and bring it down to about 70 degrees and then post pictures. You will be shocked at the difference.

Lastly... What is the temp of your walk-in? It needs to be below 40. I run my fridge at 34.

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Offline Georgev

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Best way to control temp is leave your water in a container in the walking over night. If you water hits 38 degrees wana your flour is 75 and you mix it for 10 mins your looking at a final temp of around 68-76 degrees.

Offline QwertyJuan

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Best way to control temp is leave your water in a container in the walking over night. If you water hits 38 degrees wana your flour is 75 and you mix it for 10 mins your looking at a final temp of around 68-76 degrees.

I don't have a walk-in here at work, so I just use ice. Works well... but I could see where fridge cold water would be really nice to have.

Offline Ric Clint

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I made another batch to see what happens when I lower the Water Temp.
I did the exact same process as detailed in my original post... but with the only difference being that I dropped the Water Temp down by 10* degrees.

I used King Arthur's Special Patent Flour (12.7% Protein).
My building was around 70* degrees.
I followed everything exactly the way Tom does in the 2 video's.

Tom's recipe calls for:
Flour 100%
Salt 1.75%
Sugar 2%
IDY 0.375%
Water 58 to 60% (70 to 75F)
Oil 2%

This THIRD batch I made was a batch using 64% Water so my numbers were as follows (PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK MY NUMBERS... I'm not the best with Baker's Percentages but I think my weights are accurate):
Flour 100%  .......  12.5lbs
Salt 1.75%  .......  3.5oz
Sugar 2%  .......  4.0oz
IDY 0.375%  .......  21grams
Water 64% (65F)  .......  8.0lbs
EVO Oil 2%  .......  4.0oz

My "finished dough temp" was 79* degrees.
Since my Dough Balls were 17oz (for a 14" pizza), I left them "Cross-Stacked" in the Cooler for exactly 3 hours, and then "Nested" or "Down-Stacked" them.

So with me reducing the Water Temp down by 10* degrees, the "finished dough temp" only reduced down by 5* degrees.


I've attached 5 pictures of my Dough Balls. You be the judge... but by reducing the Water Temp by 10* degrees (and the "finished dough temp" by 5* degrees), I only slightly see that it slowed down the process of the dough balls blowing up... what do you think?
--  1st pic is 1 minute after coming out of the Dough Mixer.
--  2nd pic is 24 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.
--  3rd pic is 48 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.
--  4th pic is 72 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.
--  5th pic is 72 hours after coming out of the Dough Mixer.

The 4th and 5th pics are both at 72 hours. The 5th one seems to have blown a little more even though it's the same age as the 4th pic... I don't know what happened with this one?

I'm thinking about making another batch and lowering the Water Temp by another 10* degrees (from 65* degrees down to 55* degrees) and see if that will slow down the process a little more. Or does anybody have any other thoughts or recommendations?


Thanks!

« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 01:44:06 AM by Ric Clint »

Offline vtsteve

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Lastly... What is the temp of your walk-in? It needs to be below 40. I run my fridge at 34.

Did you ever answer this question? I can't find it if you did. And are you cross-stacking where the boxes can see some air flow from the condenser?

Your dough at 72 hours looks like the old dough that I leave out overnight to add to the next batch.  :-D


I use about 1/4 of my water weight as crushed ice, with the balance from the cold tap (in the summer). By the time I add the flour to the mixer, most of the ice is melted but it's still uncomfortably cold in there. The IDY goes in (or on top of) the flour so the ice water doesn't kill it.


(PLEASE DOUBLE CHECK MY NUMBERS... I'm not the best with Baker's Percentages but I think my weights are accurate):

It's a lot easier to check numbers when *everything* is in grams or kg -- mixing lb/oz/g is almost as bad as volume.  :-D
« Last Edit: October 25, 2018, 01:52:55 AM by vtsteve »
In grams we trust.
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Offline Ric Clint

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vtsteve,

Oh, I must have missed that... my fridge Temp is right around 35*-37* degrees. And yes on the cross-stacking (for 3 hours, and then "down-stacking")... just like Tom does in that 2nd video.

Yeah that 72 hours dough is kind of cute looking, huh... lol...



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Offline bigMoose

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Here is the dough doctors long article on dough temperature and how to achieve it.  Was originally in PMQ, but was captured by the wayback machine.  Due credit to Peter who found it!

https://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
All the best, Dave

Offline vtsteve

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Oh, I must have missed that... my fridge Temp is right around 35*-37* degrees.

I've been pretty happy with 0.2% IDY at pretty much exactly that temperature for 48 hours (taking it out a little early). It also works well at 72 hrs. with less tempering.
In grams we trust.
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Offline QwertyJuan

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I don't know a whole lot... but if it was my guess?? Your fridge isn't holding it's temp or your thermometer is wrong. There should NOT be that much change between 24 and 48 hours. Mine will show a SLIGHT change in that time frame but NOTHING like you are seeing.

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