A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions  (Read 2010 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #100 on: November 05, 2018, 03:54:17 PM »
I was thinking about lowering it to 525f

I do not have a convection oven.
As of right now my 3/8 Steel is that the very top of the oven ring about five in below the broiler. Maybe I should lower it down a little bit?

I have definitely changed a lot of things and now I'm starting to understand what you meant by lower hydration but I really wanted to change a lot of variables and everything I thought I knew about pizzamaking put to the side and start fresh with actually getting help not just YouTube or book certified.

Like I said I've turned out some fantastic pizzas but also some Bagel like my results are just not always consistent but a lot of that is my fault because I'm always tinkering with things. I jumped ahead without understanding the basics of fermentation and just following recipes
Josh

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #101 on: November 05, 2018, 03:59:04 PM »
 ;D - I have been doing this for a long time and I still like to turn the knobs to try and make the pie better....
Norm

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #102 on: November 09, 2018, 08:28:30 AM »
So I've been reading a lot have different post and there seems to be a lot of people that think when you barely knead the dough and just let it come together as a smooth butt cottage cheese texture that's all that's needed and you get better results with a longer CF? Pretty much the gluten will take care of itself.

Most of the same people also feel that the dough ball should be balled or reballed about 24 hours before use, which we kind of talked about on here except for the oil affecting the bonding which some members recommend to bulk ferment for 24 hours no oil then divide and ball and go back in the fridge for another 24 hours with the oil at that point.

Opinions on the barely kneading aspect
Josh

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #103 on: November 09, 2018, 08:36:39 AM »
When I used to visit my Mom - she did not have a mixer - so I would just hand mix for a min. or two then do about 5 sets of stretch and folds about 10-15 min apart before balling - works fine. If you are interested in trying something else to make your finished profile closer to what you want (w/o changing the recipe) let me know and I'll explain what I think would be interesting to try... I think it would make a big difference.
Norm

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #104 on: November 09, 2018, 08:48:20 AM »
I am all ears. I love learning about all different methods and ways of doing things, to me this is what makes dough so much fun. All kinds of different ways to do things.
Like the jim l no knead method really taught me something I just didn't know you could apply that method to cf
Josh

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #105 on: November 09, 2018, 09:29:52 AM »
In one of the bakeries I worked in as a teenager I made a freeform rye bread - I'm not talking about using rye flour in your pizza but I think you could do a version of the freeform method. With a freeform loaf the dough is shaped then proofed (as most bread) but a freeform loaf uses a pan without sides. If you did something similar you could really open up the crust - and I have a feeling you would like the results.

To do this all you need to do is incorporate a proofing step into your existing process. So when you are ready to make your pizza, shape it to about 95% of its final size, lay it down on some lightly oiled parchment paper (or wax paper). Lightly brush the top of the disk with some mild oil and let it proof undisturbed for 20-30 min. Then, being very careful, move it over to you screen (it will be very extensible so this will be a delicate operation). Pull it open the last 5% if it did not already open a bit from moving. Sauce and top - bake as normal. If any big bubbles form while it is proofing I would pop them with a toothpick.

I think this will really help you enjoy the thicker pie you are making and does not require you to make a change to your recipe. But I would recommend you try a bit less sugar and LDM. I also think you should drop the temp 25 degrees (maybe the one after this try 475). The last proofing step will make the dough very extensible so make sure you don't up the water (but I think you said you planned to use a touch less anyway).

Like I mentioned, I think this is something that will really elevate your personal style and get you closer to a pie people will identify you with (your signature pizza).

Power to the pizza  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
Norm

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #106 on: November 09, 2018, 09:57:33 AM »
Very interesting, I was actually thinking about trying something like that kind of like how you do a pan pizza but the only issue I was worried about was the bubbles underneath. I am actually going to give that a try. I was also thinking about lowering the temperature to 450 or 475. So what is the negative of lowering the temperature in that range? Just Les oven spring? I mean it can't be that horrible of results most taken bake recommend that temperature anyways which I assume is because they're afraid people will overcook their Pizza? but would it turn out any more dense and dry at tje temperature
Josh

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #107 on: November 09, 2018, 10:10:04 AM »
I think the extra proofing will more than make up for any loss of oven spring from the lower temperature - also the coating of oil will allow the dough to open a bit more before it sets.

With your steel deck and thicker dough I think I would try 500-475 for sure, then go up or down 25 depending on how long it takes to cook and how much char you get. You will know when you hit the sweet spot because your eyes will roll back into your head when you take a bite  :-D

Can't wait to see what you make next!!!
Norm

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #108 on: November 09, 2018, 10:39:49 AM »
I think the extra proofing will more than make up for any loss of oven spring from the lower temperature - also the coating of oil will allow the dough to open a bit more before it sets.

With your steel deck and thicker dough I think I would try 500-475 for sure, then go up or down 25 depending on how long it takes to cook and how much char you get. You will know when you hit the sweet spot because your eyes will roll back into your head when you take a bite  :-D

Can't wait to see what you make next!!!
I am I am definitely going to try this thank you very much. One last question what is the recommended or ballpark time I stood try to shoot for as far as baking to get things dialed in? Like should it be no more than 10 minutes or try to keep it around 7 minutes
Josh

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #109 on: November 09, 2018, 10:43:56 AM »
I think for your Thickness Factor and recipe I would shoot for ~10 min.
Norm

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #110 on: November 09, 2018, 11:22:43 AM »
I think for your Thickness Factor and recipe I would shoot for ~10 min.

Okay that sounds good, I know at 5:50 it will make my pizza a little dry but I'm thinking around 475 10 minutes should work. I think I'm going to lower the oil a little bit to maybe around 3% and keep the thickness Factor at .125
Josh

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #111 on: November 09, 2018, 11:50:46 AM »
Irishboy, you inspired me to make some dough today!

My administrative workflow goes like this. I usually fill in the calculator with the planned recipe I'm making. Then I print it out and use it as a check sheet when measuring all the ingredients and making the dough (so I don't forget anything). I also keep my notes on the printout, like finished dough temp, how much cold water I used, etc.

Then after the bake I go back to the calculator and transcribe all the notes / comments and information back into the calculator. Next I grab the BBCode for my post and save the calculator page as a PDF in my pizza records folder.

It is a nice way to manage my pizza experiments and it makes a great reference for what I did and what happened....  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
Norm

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #112 on: November 09, 2018, 11:59:27 AM »
That is a great idea

I usually do a test dough every batch. I think I'm going to do one with last fermentation time like 48 hours but up the yeast a little bit. 0.5% set for 72 hours I did 0.3%.

One of the doughs will be bulk fermented and then balled 12-24hrs prior to baking

I usually do large pizzas but I think I'm going to make smaller dough balls and try a bunch of different baking techniques as far as temperature


I'm mainly going to focus on the lower temperature and see what kind of effect that has which I will try on my daughter's Pizza because she definitely likes a soft crust she tells me she likes her Pizza like Costco pizza and mine's too crunchy.lol. The mind of a toddler
« Last Edit: November 09, 2018, 12:41:27 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

Offline foreplease

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3580
  • Age: 58
  • Location: St. Joseph, MI
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #113 on: November 09, 2018, 12:55:53 PM »
Norm, I havenít kept up with the latest on your dough calculator. Have you found a way to incorporate user photos with their notes and formulas? Not examples of a style but actual results? It sounded like a great feature when it was discussed some time ago.
-Tony
I find it easier to imagine a diet of nothing but ice cream than one without ice cream

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #114 on: November 09, 2018, 01:36:33 PM »
I can add a place to upload photos but until I can get the user account part implemented and handle all the saves and restores for the the forms to and from the SQL database it/they will not be saved.

Do you want me to add a spot for photos to upload so when you save it as a PDF the photos are part of the PDF? I doubt I can make the photo(s) a cookie so they will be gone if you reload the page.

Let me know, happy to add that if it helps while everyone is patiently waiting for me to do the hard part I described above...
Norm

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline foreplease

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3580
  • Age: 58
  • Location: St. Joseph, MI
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #115 on: November 09, 2018, 02:42:40 PM »
No, not for me Norm. I just wondered where it stood. Iím not really advanced enough nor careful enough to use the calculator. It has been impressive to watch what you have done with it though.
-Tony
I find it easier to imagine a diet of nothing but ice cream than one without ice cream

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #116 on: November 10, 2018, 12:50:33 PM »
I have definitely come to realize you do not need to knead dough a whole lot. I barely mixed into a Shaggy cottage cheese ball let rest for 20 minutes and there's already pretty nice gluten development  and a smooth ball.

Here is a modified Tony gemignani's method. Finished dough temperature 70 degrees sit at room temperature for 1 hour then 24 hours in the fridge bulk, remove divide and ball send another 24 hours in the refrigerator cold fermented.
Josh

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #117 on: November 10, 2018, 01:44:38 PM »
I also made another with more than half the yeast, i adapted Ken forkish method of mixing but he calls for a much higher dough temperature of 80f. Bulk permit at room temperature for 2 hours then divide and ball refrigerate for 48 hours. He also calls for a more Neapolitan way of dissolving the yeast in salted water.

On this one I accidentally messed up and use my old phone number of hydration of 70% obviously it was way too sticky for bread flour so I just had to go by feel and slowly add more flour until I felt it was good.
Josh

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 186
  • Location: California
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #118 on: November 11, 2018, 06:17:46 PM »
Norm i would love to here your details about your old dough method ive seen you mention on a few post. 2-3 weeks old dough? What % to you add? So basically you really ferment the dough extremely to get the flavor but since I imagine it's such a small percent of the total Future dough weight it doesn't matter on structure? What kind of hydration do you use and I imagine it has to be the same as your future dough ball? Do you add more yeast to your future dough or do you let the old dough ferment the future dough? Also what kind of yeast are you using?

Hope that's not too many questions but this is very interesting and I make pizza every week so this would be easy for me to do each week save a piece and keep it in rotation. I've made poolish and Biga in the past but nothing that longer fermentation
Josh

Offline norcoscia

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3451
  • Location: WA
  • I really Love Pizza!
Re: Room temperature vs cold ferment and a few other questions
« Reply #119 on: November 12, 2018, 09:47:32 AM »
It is pretty easy Josh - just save some of your normal pizza dough in a small ball and let it age in the refrigerator - I have used between 10-20% of it in my dough. It made the best tasting crust I have ever made. I have aged it as long as 3 weeks but two weeks works and it looks and smells good after that long.

Lots of ways to do it - you can just make a batch with 20% dough more in it and then just make reg batches after that, pull 20% of you reg batch and use it for the next old dough and throw in you 20% old dough ball from the last mix to get your total back to normal dough total.

I also had good luck making a big batch up, aging it and then dividing it into a bunch of small (20%) size small balls - then just throw one into you mix (cut your total by 20% to account for the old dough ball add).

That reminds me I still have a test frozen ball in the freezer it has been in there almost a year - I'm betting it will still be fine for an old dough addition. I'll add that in for the next batch, I have two balls in the fridge for tonight already.....
Norm

A D V E R T I S E M E N T