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Author Topic: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone  (Read 4385 times)

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #20 on: November 04, 2018, 02:04:30 AM »
Awesome work as always Peter,

Thank you! I love having the breakdown of grams for the ingredients, as I usually weigh everything. From my own test tonight, I believe you are dead on about string cheese being what is used in the stuffed crust. The breakdown in weight of ingredients is very appreciated. Iíve never had the pan buffalo chicken pizza, so I liked comparing. I made a test bake tonight and my results are below. This bake was better than last nights test bake.

1.  I used your PH pan dough and it was fantastic. I altered the yeast a bit for IDY but kept it pretty much the same. I used All Purpose since itís cheaper and I have a ton of it around.
2.  The buffalo sauce is very close with added honey and corn syrup. PH doesnít use honey, but it added some nice natural sugar. I find it funny how sugar is the main ingredient in their sauce. I used Kenís Spicy Buffalo Sauce, a bit of butter, lots of honey, and lots of corn syrup.
3.  The Perdue Short Cuts Oven Roasted chicken strips are pretty close in flavor.
4.  Awesome taste for the crust, but the texture that of a pretzel/bagel (more on that below). It may have been from my baking method though, as I did use a lot of oil on the bottom and top of the dough. I think this led to the top becoming more crackly like Deep Dish dough. I think I need to just bake it with no oil on top pre-bake, but brushing the top with oil post-bake is necessary.
5.  The stuffed crust stayed intact and didnít leak string cheese out out, but I may need to use two sticks, as they melt to almost nothing. The taste tastes exactly like PH, even without any added salt to the string cheese.  I'm using Polly-O Part Skim Milk String Cheese.
6. I let the dough rise for 2 hours in a proofed setting oven at 100į. But, this week Iíll let it cold ferment for 1 day and follow the steps laid out for the pan dough. I rolled out the dough and due to the 15 min knead time in my KA, it was an awesome dough. I also docked it.

Now, finally I realized what the promo pic reminds me of: a lighter cooked Auntie Anne's pretzel!  That is what the promo crust reminds me of and what I'm striving towards.  This is the main factor in why their stuffed crust used to be so amazing and now hasn't been as good.  Just like in comparing the customer photo vs. the promo photo, this has been my experience there.  The crust used to be exactly like a pretzel (soft and brushed with oil), but lately it's been like the customer photo (more like a regular pizza crust with very little oil brushed on post-bake).

Whenever I used to eat at PH and got their stuffed crust pizza, the smell of the oily crust and the soft feel of that crust was what I noticed the most.  It really did remind me of a bagel/Auntie Anne's pretzel. My main goal now is to get the crust exactly like the promo pic below.  Preparation wise, I'm guessing oil is still used to coat the bottom of the pan, but any oil on top of the crust must be added after, much like Aunt Annies Pretzels.  I wonder if the oil added after is what kept it so soft in the past, or if other measures were taken to ensure a pretzel like softness. But, how do I bake a pizza crust to come out like an Auntie Anne's Pretzel? Every time I make it, it comes out too hard.  Do you think low heat or high heat would be better? I bake my Jimmy Johnís bread at 390į convection and they come out perfect.  I've been researching soft pretzel recipes, and obviously I can't blanch the crust.

As you can see the color in my crust tonight is closer to the customer picture of PH, compared to the promo pic.  Funny thing is the promo pic is what my PH used to look like to a T.  Last time I was at Auntie Anne's, I noticed they just bake in small ovens and brush post-bake with their delicious oil/butter.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 03:35:31 AM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #21 on: November 04, 2018, 09:55:05 AM »
Pod4477,

I'm glad to hear that your latest effort at a PH buffalo chicken stuffed clone pizza worked out well for you.

Can you tell me what size pizza you made, and also if you used any non-fat dry milk powder and, if so, what brand you used?

Before I read your last post this morning, I edited my last post to say more about the cheeses PH uses, namely, cheeses from Leprino Foods. They do not sell at retail and they are a very secretive company, as the Forbes article pointed out. I know that from personal experience because I once called them to try to get nutrition information from them when I was playing around with my Papa John's clones. As is well known, Papa John's also uses cheeses from Leprino. The Leprino employee I was referred to wouldn't speak with me unless I was a prospective customer. So they would not give me any nutrition information

In my last post, I also edited the amount of soybean oil used in a 14" pan. I found that I had a 14" pan similar to the one shown in the video in Reply 14 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg549786#msg549786) so I coated the pan as shown in the video and, using my scale, I calculated a value of 6 grams (about 1 1/3 teaspoon) for the soybean pan oil. For the fresh red onions and the sliced banana peppers, I used half the weights given at the Nutritionix website since the values given there assumed only one added topping per pizza.

For my analysis of the PH ingredients for their large buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza, I assumed that they use 5 mozzarella cheese strings based on the first video shown in Reply 15 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg549814#msg549814). From a bit of research on mozzarella cheese strings, it seems a single string weighs about an ounce and can have about 5-6 grams of total fat per string. I have no idea as to what the nutrition information is for the strings that PH uses since it is not singled out in the PH nutrition information at the Nutritionix website referenced at the PH website. Based on my assumption of the weight of the string cheese and on the information at the Nutritionix website for the shredded cheese used on an original large stuffed crust pizza, I get a total of around 10.5 ounces for the two cheeses. Does that sound about right?

Since you noted that you used all pupose flour, it is possible to increase its protein content, as well as assist in the rise of the dough, by using vital wheat gluten. That is what PH has done, as you can see at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show. In PH's case, it uses 2% or less in its dough.

I know that you would like to have your pizzas look like the promo photos, and while that is a desirable objective, I am sure that you know that such promo photos are prepared by specialists who are skilled in how to manipulate and photograph foods to look better than they really are in practice.

Peter



Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #22 on: November 04, 2018, 11:45:08 AM »
Thank you! Sorry, I try to include all info as possible, but somehow the size slipped by. That pizza was 14Ē and I used Carnation instant dry nonfat milk. I used the percentage used in the pan pizza recipe which was 2.3%. I donít like the fact that they wouldnít talk to you about nutrition facts. I never like when a company isnít transparent about ingredients/health. Even PR talked to me about their dough ingredients  :P

6 grams of soybean oil seems to be about what I used as well. The bottom came out perfect with this amount of oil! Thatís a good way to calculate the oil, I wish I thought of doing that. And also good way of calculating the veggies. Iíll have to weigh my total cheese next time. 10.5 oz seems right though. My cheese sticks are smaller so I had to use more than PH. Iíll do some weighing to see how much my cheese sticks weigh in total.

Thank you, I didnít even think about the vital wheat gluten and itís a very good point. Since Gold Medal bread flour is only found at one store (I canít belive no one sells it), Iíve been buying Gold Medal all purpose flour more.

I never usually try to replicate promo pictures, and most of the time they actually look less appetizing to me due to their fakeness. Youíre right though, and I will probably never be able to make mine look exactly like this promo one, which Iím fine with. But what got my attention was exactly how close my (now closed) PH got to the promo pic. Iíve never actually seen a promo pic look as close to an actual food. The PH I went to had that perfect shape to the rim from the string cheese and the same color/shiny oil. I wish I knew what kind of ovens they used back then. Do you know what most PH were using 10 years ago or today/what temp they might be baking at? I usually do 400į-450į, but I just noticed your recipe is 500į, so I should try that. I think the hotter temp would keep it moist.

As far as what oil is used post-bake, I read an older comment from you Peter, talking about how it was a butter/butter garlic spray. At https://www.quora.com/What-does-the-weird-spray-thing-Pizza-Hut-employee-use-on-pizzas-contain previous workers for PH said itís used to get the golden brown crust, and that itís used to keep the stuffed crust from drying out and for taste/shine. I believe my PH definitely used it (probably butter flavored instead of garlic butter) post-bake to keep the crust soft, but using it pre-bake to get a golden brown crust seems to be possible too. My dilemma is that using oil pre-bake seems to make the crust too crispy and not soft at all. The stuffed crust ingredients below list garlic butter spray, so my thought is that oil is added only post-bake. I think PH has gotten rid of this spray and thatís why the Nutritionix doesnít have it listed anymore.

Stuffed Crust:
Water, Vegetable Oil, Classic Premix (Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Soybean Oil, Salt, Yeast), Pan Release (Soybean Oil, Lecithin, Propellant), Butter Garlic Spray (Corn Oil, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, Natural Butter Flavour, Natural Garlic Flavour, Beta Carotene (Color), Propellant), String Cheese Cheese: (Pasteurized Skimmed Milk, Bacterial Culture, Salt, Calcium Chloride, Microbial Enzyme), Modified Milk Ingredients, Water, Natural Flavour, Sodium Phosphates, Potassium Chloride, Salt, Potassium Sorbate

Iíve been researching how to make pretzels 🥨 as soft as Auntie Anneís, as this is the best comparable texture to what I remember from the stuffed crust at PH years ago. I always remember how pillowy soft the crust was, and the complete opposite from a PR crust. I wonder what would yield a soft crust. The pics below are very close to what I remember. Definitely brushed with oil post-bake but I canít figure out why they get that brown color and are so soft. Maybe from being previously frozen?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2018, 12:54:24 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2018, 01:52:50 PM »
I'm going to make one as my next pizza   and I really want to do it in my pan but I'm not sure if it will cook right.


I've only used that pan once and what happened is I was making a NY style pizza around 0.9tf         I cranked the oven up to its highest planning to place the pizza directly on the steel       but my pizza pan turned up in the mail so  I used  that.
 The top cooked fast as expected but the bottom was undercooked. 6 minutes bake time because the pan just didn't get hot enough at the bottom.


Is it just a case of needing a lower temp  bake so that the pan has more time to heat up?



Remember my oven doesn't have a bottom heating element (which is why I bought the steel)     the heating element is at the back of the oven, with the convection fan surrounding it blowing air out. I'm basically using the steel as a substitute for not having a bottom heating element. 

Of course I could also cover the top with some foil if the top being cooked too fast is a problem.








Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2018, 02:09:29 PM »
Pod4477,

Having labored for many hours to come up with all the information that I revealed in my last couple of posts, I thought that I would do a dry run on the numbers to see if we are in the ballpark and to make a few observations. However, I will await the information you have on the mozzarella cheese strings or sticks before doing a deeper dive. As I mentioned before, nutrition information can be quite tricky. For example, at this point, I am beginning to believe that the weights given by PH for its pizzas may be for baked pizzas but that the weights of the individual items as given at the Nutritionix website may be for those items in unbaked form. Even then, there can be variations for a variety of reasons. For example, at its website, PH states the following:

Variations may occur due to differences in suppliers, ingredient substitutions, recipe revisions, and/or product production at the restaurant.

In addition to those variations, the FDA gives pizza makers a fair amount of slack in their compliance with their own nutrition information. For example, more than once I have purchased pizzas from Papa John's only to discover that they were underweight based on their own nutrition information. I would typically weigh the pizzas on my scale in my car in the PJ parking lot so that there would not be any loss in weight from the PJ store to my home, giving me the best numbers that I could get.

Subject to all of the above qualifications and disclaimers and the assumptions I have made, the information I posted seems to suggest that the dough used by PH to make its stuffed crust pizzas weighs around 22 ounces, give or take an ounce or so, depending on whether the pizzas are weighed pre- or post-bake. Also, the oil used in the dough seems at this point to be very close to what is stated in the recipe you used. There may be some variations in the oils in the various ingredients due to the bake but that should not materially alter their weights. At some point, I would like to do a Sodium analysis for the same reason. If doable, that might tell us how much salt is used in the PH dough. In a similar vein, I would also like to do a Sugars analysis to see if I can determine how much sugar might be added to the dough. What I would like to end up with when all is said and done is a clone dough formulation that you might be able to experiment with.

Interestingly, the pizza you made reminded me a lot of one of my PJ clone pizzas. It was one that used BBQ chicken (grilled), onions, bacon, and a barbeque drizzle sauce over the pizza after baking. The dough ball weight was 22 ounces, and it was room temperature fermented for one day. The finished pizza, which was baked on a pizza screen, was 14". The dough included a fair amount of oil and sugar. The flour was a bread flour. I used 7.75 ounces of grilled chicken (with BBQ sauce), 9 ounces of mozzarella cheese, and 1.5 ounces (about 42 grams) of onions. I had weighed the pizza before baking and after baking as well. The weight unbaked was about 45 ounces and the weight baked was about 42 ounces. The loss was 7.7%. In other, similar PJ clone pizzas I made, the weight losses were around 8.8%. I would not be surprised if the PH pizzas sustain similar losses. For example, if you look at the weight information for the PH pizza at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show, the 1157.6 grams converts to a weight of about 40.8 ounces.

If you are interested, you can read more about my PJ clone chicken BBQ pizza at Reply 35 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60197#msg60197

Peter


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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #25 on: November 05, 2018, 01:03:22 AM »
MadMatt,
I always seem to have trouble making pan pizzas other than deep dish pizza. I have the same convection oven type as you, and Iíve used baking steels a lot, but havenít tried them with a pan pizza yet. Cooking at 400-450į has seemed to make a perfect bottom crust. I find with my UNO type commercial pans, if I use oil they will burn from 30 min bakes, but my non commercial UNO type pans (Chicago Metallic from BBB) need oil on the bottom to get crispy. I guess it all depends which material they are made from. I only use my dark pans for deep dish now, but I use my Chicago Metallic for Pizza Hut style. Good idea about using tin foil on top as my cheese has been caramalizing a bit too much from these long bakes. Maybe thatís why my crust has dried out too. I may add some more oil or water in too because I find when Iím baking in the home oven for long bakes, I need higher hydration. Of course this is common knowledge, but years ago I had no idea why my crust was coming out super dry. I think I may need to go back to that. My Jimmy Johnís bread has been calculated today with an 84% effective hydration (69% water, 15% oil). I assume this is why they came out super soft. The look was similar to the stuffed crust but I think I should go for more of a bagel/pretzel look.

Peter,
Sorry I took so long, but the nutrition for the string cheese is in the pic below. The nutrition is for (1) 1oz stick. Very interesting how your pizza lost so much weight and I suspect youíre right about the individual items being in unbaked form. I hadnít even thought of that. How do you do a sodium and oil analysis?

The best way to describe this crust is Auntie Anneís Pretzel Dogs. They are a bit crispy, but super soft and shiny from the butter oil they use. This is my goal I believe, along with the toppings. Have you guys ever tried a pretzel pizza crust? Lol. I wonder how I will achieve this. Maybe the pizza below is the same as I've made before, but just looks different due to the shine on the crust.  These do look pretty similar to me though, although the pretzel is darker.  I noticed the pizza does have a lot of micro blisters on the crust and the cheese is very caramelized, which means it much be baking for a long time, much like mine was.

I think Iím going to try upping the hydration to around what my JJ bread recipe was just for fun, and only brushing post-bake. Basically Iíll be making bread roll crusts ::)
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 01:27:29 AM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2018, 02:03:17 PM »
Peter,

How do you do a sodium and oil analysis?
Pod4477,

I plan to do the analysis two ways. First, I will add up all of the Total Fat, Sodium and Sugars numbers for all of the component parts of the total pizza but for the crust, and subtract the totals from the corresponding numbers for the entire pizza. Since there are natural fats, sodium and sugars in the flour, I will have to take those amounts into account. However, if the entire pizza is a baked pizza for purposes of the Nutritionix database, it is likely that the natural sugars in the flour will have been exhausted long before the bake was concluded. As for the total fats and sodium, I will have to account for them as part of my analysis since they don't disappear in the baked pizza.

The second approach is to use the same numbers from the components approach and compare the totals with the crust data. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the Nutritionix database that tells us what the nutrition information is for just the string cheeses used in their stuffed crust pizzas. From the video I referenced earlier, it looked like PH uses five cheese sticks for the 14" size. And the nutrition data that I found for such products when I was in my local supermarket yesterday is like what you quoted and showed in the photo. Whether the cheese sticks that PH gets from Leprino Foods, or some other supplier, are like the ones you used I have no idea.

What I will be interested in is whether the two approaches yield similar numbers.

When you have a chance, I would appreciate it if you can show a photo of the Nutrition Facts panel for the Gold Medal flour you have been using. It's the numbers part of the panel I am interested in. Usually for retail all purpose flour the Total Fat and Sugars are stated as zero or less than one gram, for a single serving size, but that is for just a small amount of the flour and reflects rounding the numbers to zero or something close to that. But when you take several samples where a 100 or more grams of flour are used, as you would do for a pizza dough, there is usually a number that is much larger than zero. The photo should also show the Sodium content of the serving size used.

Peter


Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2018, 09:23:54 PM »
Pod4477,

I plan to do the analysis two ways. First, I will add up all of the Total Fat, Sodium and Sugars numbers for all of the component parts of the total pizza but for the crust, and subtract the totals from the corresponding numbers for the entire pizza. Since there are natural fats, sodium and sugars in the flour, I will have to take those amounts into account. However, if the entire pizza is a baked pizza for purposes of the Nutritionix database, it is likely that the natural sugars in the flour will have been exhausted long before the bake was concluded. As for the total fats and sodium, I will have to account for them as part of my analysis since they don't disappear in the baked pizza.

Thatís a really good way to do it, and something I wouldnít have even thought of. I wonder if my string cheese is shorter than theirs and maybe thinner. Thatís the only thing I really wasnít sure of. I also forgot that the amount of fat per serving is 0 but like you said, when multiple servings are added up the value is higher. I took that pic for you. If I want a softer crust, would it make sense to use a bread flour or is it false that bread flour would yield a softer, chewier crust? A lot of pretzel people say to use bread flour for soft pretzels.

The second approach is to use the same numbers from the components approach and compare the totals with the crust data. Unfortunately, there is nothing in the Nutritionix database that tells us what the nutrition information is for just the string cheeses used in their stuffed crust pizzas. From the video I referenced earlier, it looked like PH uses five cheese sticks for the 14" size. And the nutrition data that I found for such products when I was in my local supermarket yesterday is like what you quoted and showed in the photo. Whether the cheese sticks that PH gets from Leprino Foods, or some other supplier, are like the ones you used I have no idea.

What I will be interested in is whether the two approaches yield similar numbers.

When you have a chance, I would appreciate it if you can show a photo of the Nutrition Facts panel for the Gold Medal flour you have been using. It's the numbers part of the panel I am interested in. Usually for retail all purpose flour the Total Fat and Sugars are stated as zero or less than one gram, for a single serving size, but that is for just a small amount of the flour and reflects rounding the numbers to zero or something close to that. But when you take several samples where a 100 or more grams of flour are used, as you would do for a pizza dough, there is usually a number that is much larger than zero. The photo should also show the Sodium content of the serving size used.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2018, 10:15:54 PM »
Pod4477,

Thank you for posting the photo of the label on the bag of all purpose flour that you are now using. I noticed that the flour is bleached, as is the flour used by PH for its stuffed crust dough. As I suspected, at the 30 gram sample size, and with rounding, there is not much information to go on. So what I did was to go to the GM website and find something that looks pretty close to the flour that you have, but with a 100 gram sample size that provides more information. What appears to be an acceptable flour to use for my analysis is the flour with the following spec:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=14317000

If PH is in fact using a bread flour, then you could supplement your all purpose flour with vital wheat gluten to raise its protein content and get the same benefits as PH gets from its flour.

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clo
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2018, 10:31:01 PM »
Pod4477,

Thank you for posting the photo of the label on the bag of all purpose flour that you are now using. I noticed that the flour is bleached, as is the flour used by PH for its stuffed crust dough. As I suspected, at the 30 gram sample size, and with rounding, there is not much information to go on. So what I did was to go to the GM website and find something that looks pretty close to the flour that you have, but with a 100 gram sample size that provides more information. What appears to be an acceptable flour to use for my analysis is the flour with the following spec:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=14317000

If PH is in fact using a bread flour, then you could supplement your all purpose flour with vital wheat gluten to raise its protein content and get the same benefits as PH gets from its flour.

Peter

Good idea using that flour as reference. I saw that flour online recently. Is the added protein the only reason people suggest using bread flour when making soft bread?

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clo
« Reply #30 on: November 06, 2018, 09:44:38 AM »
Good idea using that flour as reference. I saw that flour online recently. Is the added protein the only reason people suggest using bread flour when making soft bread?

Pod4477,

I am not sure I follow your question. In PH's case, I assumed that they were using bread flour, but that was only because the former PH employee who came up with the recipe I modified (Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4607.msg38909#msg38909) said to use bread flour. Whether PH added vital wheat gluten to their flour at that time is unknown. It is very difficult to be able to determine the protein content of a flour from nutrition information, especially when other protein containing ingredients are also used. My practice is to look at the total carbohydrate and dietary fiber numbers for clues. The good news in our case is that mozzarella cheese sticks such as PH is using have zero carbs and zero dietary fiber. But vital wheat gluten (more on this below) does have carbs but the amount depends on how much is used.

Currently, PH is using vital wheat gluten in its dough. But as you can see from the Nutritionix information at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show, the amount of vital wheat gluten is less than 2%. But even then the vital wheat gluten will increase the protein content of the base flour. In addition, it will give somewhat better rise of the dough, possibly softening the crust. But if too much vital wheat gluten is used, and all else being equal, it can possibly make for a somewhat tougher crumb although the oil (more than 2% in PH's case) and the sugar (less than 2% in PH's case) can make the crumb softer. There is a limit to how much vital wheat gluten to use before things go south. For example, increasing the protein content of all purpose flour to that of bread flour is fine, as we might do in your case with the flour you are now using, but going from all purpose flour to high gluten flour is too big a jump. As you can see, different ingredients do different things and finding the right combination and the right balance is what you try to achieve.

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2018, 02:10:25 PM »
I didnít quite phrase that question how I wanted to. When I was looking at recipes for different soft breads, people suggested using bread flour for a softer bread. I wasnít sure if this was true, as the added protein was something I donít associate really with softness, but rather stronger gluten formation.  But since weíre making pizza it does make sense to use higher protein flour. I always associate the softness in the crumb to more hydration and kneading. I have been using bread flour for my PR clone last week, but the Gold Medal Bread Flour was running low and all I had was Gold Medal All Purpose for the PH pan dough. Very good point about the carbs being a clue, and I should pick up some VWG for my next dough. All Purpose is easier to find and cheaper at the local BJís Wholesale Club.

I love the fact that you modeified the recipe. My guess is that the softness of the crust is really more dependent on the ingredients added to the flour, as well as proper kneading, and also spreading butter/oil on it post bake. Do you think the pan dough at PH is the exact same dough used for stuffed crust pizza as well? If so, then it must just be the oil being sprayed on post-bake that makes the crust stay soft. Iím also thinking that the proofing in the pan step has to be skipped as with the stuffed crust, the dough needs to be rolled/flattened and then folded over the string cheese. This seems to be the only alteration in the stuffed crust vs the pan recipe.

One commenter on a website I visited said if you want the fluffiest crumb, always knead to a windowpane, which I always do. People have also talked about how American flour is not as fine as European or Asian flour, and thatís why our breads donít come out as soft. This video was pretty informative and while I donít want my crust to be that fluffy and springy, they might be helpful to try out:

I guess whatís confusing me is that the stuffed crust is kind of a weird feeling crust. Maybe itís just the oil sprayed on top, but itís very bagel/pretzel like.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 02:17:41 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2018, 02:16:45 PM »
Pod4477,

I wanted to let you know that yesterday morning I put a call into the Pizza Hut nutrition hotline, at 800-948-8488. I was immediately greeted with a message that said that their hours were from 1:00 PM to 7 PM. So, I waited until after lunch to try the call again. After waiting for about ten minutes on hold, I was connected to a customer service rep. Before I could pose my questions, she asked me for my name, telephone number and zip code. I later found that that was because she was looking up my information in their database, which she found. I believe that my information had made its way into the PH database when I called once before. I believe it was the same question in that previous call. I mention the foregoing to give you an idea as to what to expect should you ever decide to call PH on a given matter.

I prefaced my questions by telling the rep that I had found the Nutrition link on their website and that led me to the Nutritionix database. I told her that I was attentive to nutrition matters in my own day to day health and, in keeping with that, I simply wanted to know if the information in the Nutritionix database for entire pizzas was for baked pizzas or unbaked pizzas. I quickly added that I was also interested because I had once been told by a Papa John's rep that the nutrition information about their pizzas was for baked pizzas but that I had purchased pizzas from them that weighed less than what their website said. The rep paused to contemplate my comments and said that she didn't really know the answer to my question. She asked me to stay on hold as she looked into the matter. She returned shortly thereafter and told me that she was going to refer my question to someone else in the PH organization and that they would get back to me via email. Since that was the case, I also asked her to also investigate whether items like fresh onions, peppers and the like were treated as unbaked items in the Nutritionix database rather than as baked (which wouldn't seem to make much sense but I asked anyway to be sure).

This afternoon, I received an email reply from PH in which I was told that the nutrition on their pizzas was for baked pizzas. I did not get a reply to the other questions I raised, so I have followed up with a reply email posing those questions also. Whether I get a reply to those questions remains unclear. But I will let you know if I do get a further response from PH.

The information I got today from PH is significant because it tells us that the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza as given at the Nutritionix database at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show is for a baked pizza. That pizza as baked weighs 1157.3 grams. That translates to about 1157.3/28.35 = 40.82 ounces. That is in the ballpark for some of the Papa John's clone pizzas I have made, including the one I recently cited to you. It is hard to say what the precise weight loss might be for the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza because PH uses a conveyor oven and that oven typically blasts the way the heat is applied to a pizza, both top and bottom, to be sure it bakes properly in the allocated bake time. So, their loss may not be in the roughly 8-9% range that my multi-topping PJ clone pizzas sustained in my home oven. Maybe I will have a better feel once I have had a chance to play with all of the numbers I have gotten to date for the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza. However, I will most likely await a further response from PH because the calculations will take some time to do. And even then they might be inconclusive.

Peter

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2018, 02:26:19 PM »
Pod4477,

I wanted to let you know that yesterday morning I put a call into the Pizza Hut nutrition hotline, at 800-948-8488. I was immediately greeted with a message that said that their hours were from 1:00 PM to 7 PM. So, I waited until after lunch to try the call again. After waiting for about ten minutes on hold, I was connected to a customer service rep. Before I could pose my questions, she asked me for my name, telephone number and zip code. I later found that that was because she was looking up my information in their database, which she found. I believe that my information had made its way into the PH database when I called once before. I believe it was the same question in that previous call. I mention the foregoing to give you an idea as to what to expect should you ever decide to call PH on a given matter.

I prefaced my questions by telling the rep that I had found the Nutrition link on their website and that led me to the Nutritionix database. I told her that I was attentive to nutrition matters in my own day to day health and, in keeping with that, I simply wanted to know if the information in the Nutritionix database for entire pizzas was for baked pizzas or unbaked pizzas. I quickly added that I was also interested because I had once been told by a Papa John's rep that the nutrition information about their pizzas was for baked pizzas but that I had purchased pizzas from them that weighed less than what their website said. The rep paused to contemplate my comments and said that she didn't really know the answer to my question. She asked me to stay on hold as she looked into the matter. She returned shortly thereafter and told me that she was going to refer my question to someone else in the PH organization and that they would get back to me via email. Since that was the case, I also asked her to also investigate whether items like fresh onions, peppers and the like were treated as unbaked items in the Nutritionix database rather than as baked (which wouldn't seem to make much sense but I asked anyway to be sure).

This afternoon, I received an email reply from PH in which I was told that the nutrition on their pizzas was for baked pizzas. I did not get a reply to the other questions I raised, so I have followed up with a reply email posing those questions also. Whether I get a reply to those questions remains unclear. But I will let you know if I do get a further response from PH.

The information I got today from PH is significant because it tells us that the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza as given at the Nutritionix database at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show is for a baked pizza. That pizza as baked weighs 1157.3 grams. That translates to about 1157.3/28.35 = 40.82 ounces. That is in the ballpark for some of the Papa John's clone pizzas I have made, including the one I recently cited to you. It is hard to say what the precise weight loss might be for the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza because PH uses a conveyor oven and that oven typically blasts the way the heat is applied to a pizza, both top and bottom, to be sure it bakes properly in the allocated bake time. So, their loss may not be in the roughly 8-9% range that my multi-topping PJ clone pizzas sustained in my home oven. Maybe I will have a better feel once I have had a chance to play with all of the numbers I have gotten to date for the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza. However, I will most likely await a further response from PH because the calculations will take some time to do. And even then they might be inconclusive.

Peter

Thank you for letting me know about looking up our information! Also, thank you for calling. Itís a very important question to have asked them, as many times Iíve wondered if the nutrition facts for certain baked foods were for baked or pre-baked form. I didnít realize they were using conveyor ovens back in 2006-2009. I didnít know a lot about ovens back then so thatís why, but I may travel to PH tonight to get my free pizza (received a voucher from a previous wrong order).  So itís interesting and good news that it is line with your PJís clone. I was hoping it would be for simplicity sake, and loss in weight due to the oven type is significant. I am looking forward to your calculations, and I really appreciate them. If I go there tonight Iím going to ask some questions about different things and the oil used. Iím assuming they are spraying oil post-bake still, but I have a feeling they may have stopped that. The last pizza I got wasnít shiny and was hard, so Iím assuming this was because they didnít spray it post-bake. It made a huge differences.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #34 on: November 06, 2018, 03:42:14 PM »
I didnít quite phrase that question how I wanted to. When I was looking at recipes for different soft breads, people suggested using bread flour for a softer bread. I wasnít sure if this was true, as the added protein was something I donít associate really with softness, but rather stronger gluten formation.  But since weíre making pizza it does make sense to use higher protein flour. I always associate the softness in the crumb to more hydration and kneading. I have been using bread flour for my PR clone last week, but the Gold Medal Bread Flour was running low and all I had was Gold Medal All Purpose for the PH pan dough. Very good point about the carbs being a clue, and I should pick up some VWG for my next dough. All Purpose is easier to find and cheaper at the local BJís Wholesale Club.

I love the fact that you modeified the recipe. My guess is that the softness of the crust is really more dependent on the ingredients added to the flour, as well as proper kneading, and also spreading butter/oil on it post bake. Do you think the pan dough at PH is the exact same dough used for stuffed crust pizza as well? If so, then it must just be the oil being sprayed on post-bake that makes the crust stay soft. Iím also thinking that the proofing in the pan step has to be skipped as with the stuffed crust, the dough needs to be rolled/flattened and then folded over the string cheese. This seems to be the only alteration in the stuffed crust vs the pan recipe.

Pod4477,

I believe you stated the case correctly. As with any objective in the realm of baking, there are many different ways of achieving the objective, as by the selection of ingredients and their amounts, the fermentation protocol and the bake protocol. I would be quite surprised if PH were using a high gluten flour. It might even be an all purpose flour, in which case the vital wheat gluten could increase its protein content in the direction of a bread flour.

As for the similarities between the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza and the PH buffalo chicken large original pan pizza, I alluded to the comparisons of the two pizzas toward the end of Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg550048#msg550048. However, to see how the two pizza doughs differ, we can turn to the Nutritionix information on the two pizzas as give at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show and at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-pan-slice/?show, as follows:

Original Stuffed Crust (Large): DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE., and

Original Panô Crust (Large): DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE

If you compare the two dough formulations, you will see that the stuffed version contains more soybean oil in the dough than the pan version. The stuffed version also includes DATEM and sucralose, which the pan version does not. As shown in the AIB document at https://web.archive.org/web/20130820191938/https://www.aibonline.org/schoolofbaking/DoughCondIngFunclist.pdf and also in the document at https://www.vrg.org/ingredients/index.php#monoglyceride, DATEM is an emulsifier that helps to bind things together. Sucralose is an artificial sweetener and sugar substitute. I suspect that sucralose is used instead of more sugar because it is about 600 times sweeter than sugar. But, even then, the sucralose is at the bottom of the ingredients statement and most likely used at far less than 2%.

Looking at the pan version further shows the use of stearoyl lactylate, which the stuffed version does not. As noted in the ingredients documents cited above, stearoyl lactylate, aka SSL, is also an emulsifier. It, too, is at the bottom of the ingredients statement and most likely used at far less than 2%.

As you can see, but for the differences noted above, the two dough formulations are quite similar. And if you look at the total weights of the two baked pizzas, they are also quite close, with the stuffed version weighing 1157.3 grams and the pan version weighing 1221 grams, or a difference of only 63.7 grams, or a little over two ounces. To me, that would suggest that the starting dough ball weights for the two versions are quite likely the same. That would seem to make sense since the pans for both pizzas might be the same. Also, having the unbaked weights of the two pizzas be about the same makes it easier to bake both types of pizzas in the same oven with most likely similar bake times.

You will also note that the pan version contains more Total Fat than the stuffed version while the values of the other nutrition items are pretty close to each other. I suspect that the differences may be due to different amounts of cheese used for the two pizzas and that the pan version may include a lot more soybean oil in the pan such that the pan pizza essentially fries in the oil to give it that fried bottom crust effect.

Peter

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #35 on: November 06, 2018, 08:00:49 PM »
Pod4477,

I believe you stated the case correctly. As with any objective in the realm of baking, there are many different ways of achieving the objective, as by the selection of ingredients and their amounts, the fermentation protocol and the bake protocol. I would be quite surprised if PH were using a high gluten flour. It might even be an all purpose flour, in which case the vital wheat gluten could increase its protein content in the direction of a bread flour.

As for the similarities between the PH buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza and the PH buffalo chicken large original pan pizza, I alluded to the comparisons of the two pizzas toward the end of Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg550048#msg550048. However, to see how the two pizza doughs differ, we can turn to the Nutritionix information on the two pizzas as give at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show and at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-pan-slice/?show, as follows:

Original Stuffed Crust (Large): DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE., and

Original Panô Crust (Large): DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE

If you compare the two dough formulations, you will see that the stuffed version contains more soybean oil in the dough than the pan version. The stuffed version also includes DATEM and sucralose, which the pan version does not. As shown in the AIB document at https://web.archive.org/web/20130820191938/https://www.aibonline.org/schoolofbaking/DoughCondIngFunclist.pdf and also in the document at https://www.vrg.org/ingredients/index.php#monoglyceride, DATEM is an emulsifier that helps to bind things together. Sucralose is an artificial sweetener and sugar substitute. I suspect that sucralose is used instead of more sugar because it is about 600 times sweeter than sugar. But, even then, the sucralose is at the bottom of the ingredients statement and most likely used at far less than 2%.

Looking at the pan version further shows the use of stearoyl lactylate, which the stuffed version does not. As noted in the ingredients documents cited above, stearoyl lactylate, aka SSL, is also an emulsifier. It, too, is at the bottom of the ingredients statement and most likely used at far less than 2%.

As you can see, but for the differences noted above, the two dough formulations are quite similar. And if you look at the total weights of the two baked pizzas, they are also quite close, with the stuffed version weighing 1157.3 grams and the pan version weighing 1221 grams, or a difference of only 63.7 grams, or a little over two ounces. To me, that would suggest that the starting dough ball weights for the two versions are quite likely the same. That would seem to make sense since the pans for both pizzas might be the same. Also, having the unbaked weights of the two pizzas be about the same makes it easier to bake both types of pizzas in the same oven with most likely similar bake times.

You will also note that the pan version contains more Total Fat than the stuffed version while the values of the other nutrition items are pretty close to each other. I suspect that the differences may be due to different amounts of cheese used for the two pizzas and that the pan version may include a lot more soybean oil in the pan such that the pan pizza essentially fries in the oil to give it that fried bottom crust effect.

Peter

Thank you Peter!  I had not noticed all the differences between the two doughs online, so I appreciate you breaking it down for me.  I was curious as to what DATEM is and what role it along with Sucralose played in the dough.

Now, I went and got a Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza without the peppers and onions and buffalo drizzle, just the way I used to get it, just to get a baseline on sauce and cheese taste.  I also got a pan meat lovers, and breadsticks.  I asked the girl working there what oil they used on the stuffed crust.  She was awesome and told me they don't spray or brush any oil on the dough prior to baking, but after it's baked they spread a butter/oil (she didn't seem exactly sure what it was made out of) substance on the crust with a brush.  She said they do have a garlic butter oil that is either brushed or sprayed (wasn't sure for the garlic oil) on the hand tossed crusts.  I watched as she spread the butter oil on the crust of the stuffed crust and also on the breadsticks post-bake.  She also applied the seasoning to the breadsticks.  The seasoning and butter are next to each other in the line. 

Analysis:
The pan and stuffed crusts are very similar taste wise, but the stuffed crust crumb tastes a smidge yeastier.  It wasn't terribly yeasty, but in my own experience with overly yeasty doughs, it was a bit noticeable.  When I made my deep dish recipe, I could tell when I used too much yeast, and then when I backed off the yeast a bit, I couldn't taste any yeast.  The stuffed crust had maybe a bit more yeast than I'm using in my deep dish dough now, but still nowhere near too much yeast as to where it starts tasting overly yeasty.  The pan dough and breadsticks tasted just pretty regular, but good tasting, and you can definitely tell these have been proofed in pans, as the dough is quite thick and puffy.  I forgot how risen the pan and breadstick doughs are compared to the stuffed crust.  All three bottom crusts were oily and essentially fried in the pan, but the pan did seem like it might have had more oil in the pan.  Four additional points below:

1.  The butter oil that is brushed on does have a good flavor, but it's not so pronounced that it makes a big difference.  I'd say maybe they put more of it on the breadsticks, but on the stuffed crust it adds a bit more flavor.  It does make the stuffed crust and breadsticks soft though.
2.  They are using conveyor ovens, despite showcasing a deck oven in the front of the store.  All three doughs had micro blistering and looked like they indeed came out of a conveyor oven.  The stuffed crust and breadsticks were very pale and didn't brown very well at all, but were definitely cooked all the way through.  I remember the stuffed crust looking more like the promo pics at the old Quincy location.  The stuffed crust crust was soft, but not like the crust on white bread, but instead was a bit flakey and not like the pictures at all.  I find it odd how the customer pics look compared to mine tonight.  I may just start trying to make a better crust texture than PH, and more like the promo/customer pics. 
3.  The mozzarella cheese that tops the pizza is very good and tastes unique, but a bit fake compared to true mozzarella.  The toppings are good, and the chicken does taste like Perdue Short Cuts.  The Buffalo Sauce is that sugary sauce I remember (even though they barely put any on my pizza) and the Tomato Sauce was good.  The marinara given with the breadsticks is good too. 
4.  The biggest flavors in the buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza are the sugary buffalo sauce and the string cheese used in the crust.  They are using a very similar amount of string cheese in the crust compared to how much I was using, judging from me opening up their crust.  The taste of their string cheese is awesome.  Their crust is good, but it's the string cheese/cheese sticks that have the most flavor.  Also, the blue cheese is insanely sugary (seeing a trend).  I think they put sugar in every item  :P.  I got 10 blue cheeses.  I'll post pics from my phone.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 08:12:49 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #36 on: November 06, 2018, 09:22:30 PM »
Pod4477,

Thank you for posting photos of your PH pizzas.

Do you have any idea as to how long the stuffed crust pizza was baked and at what temperature? And by any chance did PH use a different oven to bake the stuffed and pan pizzas?

You also indicated that the cheese strings in the PH stuffed crust pizza was like what you used quantatively for your clone. Can you tell me the weight of the string cheese that you used for your clone?

When I was researching the PH stuffed crust pizza earlier tonight, I read of complaints that the stuffed crust pizzas were rushed through the conveyor ovens too fast, to the point where the crust was gummy and not fully baked. Did you experience anything like that?

Peter

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #37 on: November 06, 2018, 10:12:41 PM »
Pod4477,

Thank you for posting photos of your PH pizzas.

Do you have any idea as to how long the stuffed crust pizza was baked and at what temperature? And by any chance did PH use a different oven to bake the stuffed and pan pizzas?

You also indicated that the cheese strings in the PH stuffed crust pizza was like what you used quantatively for your clone. Can you tell me the weight of the string cheese that you used for your clone?

When I was researching the PH stuffed crust pizza earlier tonight, I read of complaints that the stuffed crust pizzas were rushed through the conveyor ovens too fast, to the point where the crust was gummy and not fully baked. Did you experience anything like that?

Peter

No Problem.  I'm not sure about what temperature or time of bake, as I forgot to ask those.  The girl was so busy with my order and people walking in, that I only had time to ask her a couple questions :( I will say that the stuffed crust did seem rushed through and that makes sense as it was very lightly cooked.  I'm not sure if it was gummy though, as it seemed fully baked throughout.  When I peeled back the stuffed crust, the crumb inside was fully cooked.  The overall feel of the crust does feel a bit rubbery though.  I can't figure out how to describe the crust as it is very odd feeling.  Best way to describe it is that is feels very mass produced, while feeling a bit rubbery with a slight crispy on top.  Maybe this was due to the fact that it was very lightly cooked.  Reminds me of a lightly cooked PR pizza last month, but the stuffed crust definitely feels unique.  I guess the weird texture could be from the fact that it's thin and then rolled up over the cheese, making it very airy.  My string cheese was 1oz per stick I believe.  I think my string cheese is shorter than theirs though and maybe tonight or tomorrow I can try opening up another crust and placing my cheese inside, and then maybe do a weighing of the string cheese.  The only issue is that some string cheese did leak out :(. The string cheese is the biggest and best flavor in that pizza though and is the best flavor.  I should start using string cheese as my pizza cheese  :P. Back at the old locations, the crust was a beautiful golden color like the pics I posted the other day.

Interestingly enough, pics 1 and 2 below look a lot like my stuffed crust the other day, which are dry, crumbly/flakey on top.  Picture one appears to have oil put on pre-bake as it is intensely flakey, and picture 2 is very dry with no shine at all. Picture 3 is what I think a perfect stuffed crust should look like, and I'm guessing it's just left in the oven longer as evidenced by the intense cheese caramelization and crust browning.  This is what I'm going to strive for when making my crust.  I'm not sure if I can replicate their crust, but I think it can be improved by making a soft pretzel style crust, but it can't have too much flavor, as their crust is rather bland without the butter brushed on.  I wonder if brushing some baking soda water on top of the crust will help it brown more and essentially making it a pretzel.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2018, 10:33:21 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2018, 02:23:11 PM »
Pod4477,

I thought that you might be interested to know that I was able to get a sample (one string or stick) of the mozzarella cheese that Pizza Hut uses in the rims of its stuffed pizzas. I also later decided to buy a pepperoni stuffed crust from PH just to see what it was like and if I would learn anything from eating such a pizza. I will discuss that experience in my next post. For now, I want to focus only on the PH cheese.

The way I procured the PH string cheese was to stop off at my closest PH store while I was doing my errands the other day. When the woman approached the counter as I entered the store, ostensibly to take my order, I told her that I was only after some information about their stuffed crust pizzas. I explained that my granddaughter was visiting me and she had heard about the PH stuffed crust pizzas and wanted to try one. However, I told the woman that my granddaughter was really fussy about cheeses and I did not want to purchase a stuffed crust pizza from PH that she might not eat. So, I asked the woman if I could get a sample of one of the cheese strings for my granddaughter to try. I offered to pay for it but I knew from prior experience when I tried to purchase a dough ball from Papa John's that the POS systems in pizza chains are not set up for unusual purchases. She said that she wasn't sure that she would be able to sell me a string of the cheese but then proceeded to the back of the store to get instructions.

Less than a minute later, she returned with a single string of the cheese in her hand and handed it to me, at no cost. I, of course, thanked her profusely but I took the opportunity to ask her yet another question. And that had to do with how long one of their stuffed crust pizzas takes to bake in their ovens. She said about 15 minutes. That is an important factor since a long bake time, even at a modest oven temperature, can mean an increase in weight loss during the bake. On this point, I later learned that there are five sticks used for a large (14") original PH stuffed crust pizza, just as shown in one of the videos that Matt posted, and that the typical bake temperature for a PH stuffed crust pizza is 450 degrees F.

My plan was to analyse the PH cheese when I got back home but I decided to get a couple of other samples of mozzarella string cheese to compare with the PH cheese. So, I got one from Kraft and the other, under the Lucerne brand, from a Safeway affiliate store. Both were for low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese, the only kind I was able to find in single sticks. To give you some perspective on the cheeses, in the first photo below I show just the PH cheese. The plate on which the string is placed was selected because it is the only plate I have with a white background and I wanted to emphasize the contrasting color of the PH cheese.

The PH cheese stick itself was about 8" long and its weight was 36 grams. And its cross section was completely round with a diameter of about 1/2" and it was also soft and on the sticky side to the touch. By contrast, the Kraft cheese string was 4 1/2" long and weighed 29 grams (the label says 28 grams). It had a more oval or flattish cross section and it was firm to the touch and not at all sticky. The Lucerne product was very similar to the Kraft product but was about 4 1/4" inches long and weighed (somewhat surprisingly) 32 grams (the label says 28 grams). The second photo below is to show the three cheeses and some of their differences (the PH cheese is in the middle). In order to save myself future searches, I found the ingredients statements and nutrition information for the two cheeses at the Nutritionix website, at:

Kraft: https://www.nutritionix.com/i/kraft/mozzarella-low-moisture-part-skim/51c364be97c3e69de4b04640

Lucerne: https://www.nutritionix.com/i/lucerne-dairy-farms/string-cheese-low-moisture-part-skim-mozzarella-cheese/51c365a297c3e69de4b04d09

As part of my tests, I took small pieces of each of the three cheeses and tasted them for flavor, texture and salt intensity. The Kraft and Lucerne cheeses were similar in flavor profile (pretty much the same as a typical mozzarella cheese), on the chewy side and with about the same salt intensity (although the Kraft product has 190 mg Sodium and the Lucerne product has 200 mg Sodium per stick). By contrast, the PH cheese was considerably softer and less chewy. It also seemed to be less salty. That is perhaps true because the combination of potassium chloride and salt that PH uses for its string cheese is often referred to as a reduced-sodium blend. And reduced-sodium cheese strings typically have a Sodium value of around 110 mg per one-ounce string. I should add that I rinsed my mouth out with water between each of the taste tests so avoid flavor interactions. I also let the cheeses to come up to room temperature before testing, to optimize the flavors.

I also decided to taste each of the three cheeses in melted form. So, I place like-sized pieces of the three cheeses on a small plate and microwaved them. But I had to cut the test short because the PH cheese melted so quickly that it was about to burn. By contrast, the Kraft cheese was only partly melted and the Lucerne product had little melting. So, I then did melt tests separately and, on that basis, the PH cheese was superior in taste and texture.

Based on my tests it was clear to me that the PH cheese is a very good cheese to use in the rims of stuffed crust pizzas. The other cheeses might work but they may not be able to match the positive qualities of the PH cheese.

Taken together with the shredded cheese used inside the rim, I estimate from the data I derived from the PH string cheese sample that the total amount of cheese used in a typical PH stuffed crust pizza is 158.6 + 180 grams = 338.48 grams, or 11.94 ounces.

Unfortunately, while we are able to see the ingredients statement for the PH cheese at the Nutritionix website, we do not have any nutrition information on the PH string cheese. I am pretty sure that the PH cheese comes from Leprino Foods, and since their accounts are foodservice accounts it is unlikely that there is any publicly available nutritional information on their cheeses. Also, Leprino will make cheese product to the specs of its commercial customers, among which are low sodium string cheese products. Also unfortunately, the string cheese used in the PH stuffed crust pizzas is considered at the Nutritionix website as part of the crust, and there is no carve out at the Nutritionix website of the string cheese itself. This makes it difficult to analyze the PH nutrition information to try to determine the makeup of the dough itself.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2018, 03:32:02 PM »
As I noted in my last post, as part of my analysis of the Pizza Hut stuffed crust pizzas, I decided to try one. I decided to try the large (14") original pepperoni stuffed crust pizza. There were two reasons for that selection. First, I like pepperoni pizzas and have used them many times as part of my reverse engineering and cloning projects. Second, I found that the PH pepperoni stuffed crust pizza is far less complicated and involved from an analytical standpoint than, say, the buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza that Pod4477 likes, with a lot more moving parts. Had I selected a cheese stuffed crust pizza, that would have simplified matters even more but I have generally not liked chain cheese pizzas. I think it is because the chains use cheeses that are loaded with additives, conditioners and preservatives.

I am still working on the nutritional information and the related number crunching for the large (14") PH pepperoni stuffed crust pizza but, for the record, here are the component parts of that pizza as set forth in the Nutritionix database at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/menu/premium/:

Pepperoni - Large Original Stuffed Crust Pizza: https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/pepperoni-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show (1103.7 grams)

Original Stuffed Crust (Large): https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show (711.2 grams)

Cheese: https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23429/cheese/?grp=2816&hideServ=1&show (158.8 grams)

Classic Marinara Pizza Sauce: https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23415/classic-marinara-pizza-sauce/?grp=2880&hideServ=1&show (136.1 grams)

Pepperoni: https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23417/pepperoni/?grp=2881&hideServ=1&show (87.2 grams)

Buttery Blend Crust Flavor: https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23453/buttery-blend-crust-flavor-medium-or-large-pizza/?grp=2817&hideServ=1&show (9.6 grams)

It should be noted that in each of the above categories the data as shown at the Nutritionix website has to be converted to eight portions. What is shown in the Nutritionix database is for a single slice.

The pepperoni pizza I purchased from PH is shown in the photos below.

I live only about two minutes from the PH shop so the first thing I did when I got home was to weigh the pizza. According to the Nutritionix data, the pizza should have weighed 1104 grams, or just shy of 39 ounces. However, its actual weight was 914 grams, or a little over 32 ounces. That is an almost 18% difference. That might sound like a lot but it falls within the range (+/- 20%) specified and allowed by the FDA. As I learned from the employees at my local PH, the typical bake time for their stuffed pizzas is about 15 minutes and the oven temperature is 450 degrees F (one of the workers even went back and checked). In my case, the store worker who assembled my pizza was way in the back and largely out of sight so I did not see him assemble my pizza or put it in the oven. But, that aside, the pizza could well have been made underweight, intentionally or innocently, and the long bake time might have also contributed to the weight loss. In the past, I have been known to complain about underweight pizzas if only to learn more about how these matters occur. See, for example, my experience with Papa John's at Reply 212 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg107166#msg107166.

I also measured the diameter of the pizza. It was 13 1/2 inches, not 14". This is a common thing although I remember when some purchasers of Domino's pizzas went ballistic and posted online when their pizzas were smaller than the nominal sizes ordered. Even regular, thin crust pizzas can be smaller than their nominal sizes.

The other thing I did was to count the number of pepperoni slices. There were about 37 slices as best I could tell. That is also within the range I have experienced in the past with a large pizza from the chains.

As for the pizza itself, it was pretty much like other chain type pizzas. One of the first things I noticed was that the crust was both sweet and salty. The Nutritionix database says that there is less than 2% sugar and less than 2% salt in the dough for the PH stuffed crust pizzas but PH also uses sucralose, which is about 600 times sweeter than sucrose (table sugar), and there are many other parts of the pizza where there is a lot of salt. More specifically, there are a total of 5900 mg of Sodium in the entire pizza. That is equivalent to about 2 1/2 teaspoons of salt. I expect at some point to elaborate further on these matters because they are at the heart of trying to come up with a dough formulation for Pod4477 to try. I assume that he may not want to replicate what PH does in making a frozen dough, and that will mean having to come up with a workable set of baker's percents for a regular dough.

But the part of the pizza that I liked the most was the string cheese used in the rim of the pizza. It was soft and tasty, pretty much as I discussed in my last post. And even when I reheated a slice this morning, the string cheese remained soft and tasty. But the sweetness and saltiness still stuck out. This may not bother others. It is just that I have a very sensitive palate to sugar and salt. I also did not notice the buttery component of the pizza. As can be seen from the Nutritionix ingredients statement for the "Buttery Blend Crust Flavor" (see the link above), they do not inspire confidence.

That's it for now.

Peter

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