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Author Topic: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone  (Read 3979 times)

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2018, 05:35:52 AM »
Sorry I havenít checked the site in a few days. Simply amazing. I mean it. That is truly awesome that you got a string cheese sample, and that thing is huge. I really appreciate you taking the time to research and test this. Awesome idea for how you got the string cheese and asked for the oven temp. I was guessing 400-450į but finally I know what temp they are using for sure. 15 minutes is a good time and itís funny how itís exsctly half of the Deep Dish recipe time of mine at 450į.

I completely agree with you that my favorite part too is the string cheese. I noticed on my tests last week that it reheats well and tastes amazing. Funny thing happened; some of the string cheese bled out of the crust and I didnít realize. I was like ďwow this cheese they use is awesomeĒ not knowing it was really leaked out string cheese and not the regular pizza cheese. Their pizza cheese is good but the string cheese is turkey the star. So the reports I got years ago about the string cheese being salty are wrong. I wonder how my Polly-O string cheese would compare.

Is the 14Ē their large? They always tell me the stuffed crusts are only available in large :(, but I never knew the diameter of their large. Interesting about the weight and size loss and I did notice the Crust was salty but didnít realize sugary. Makes sense since they are trying to probably enhance the flavor of their crust. Good point that it must the sucrose. I appreciate any calculations on Dough as Iím going to be making a lot of clone bakes this month. Pepperoni pizza is the classic go-to pizza and their meat lovers is delicious. I noted the oily bottom crust as being intensely flavorful, along with their regular pizza cheese. I also didnít taste much buttery flavor on the stuffed crust crust, from the butter oil they brushed on. I think itís really more for look and to make the crust softer as it sits. The string cheese is really why I keep getting that pizza. Also, your stuffed crust looked a lot darker and crispier than mine. The bottom looked exactly like mine though. Iím very happy about all this and thank you so much for taking your time to research their pizza.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 05:48:59 AM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2018, 09:03:58 AM »
Pod4477,

According to the Nutritionix website, at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/menu/premium/, there is only one size for the stuffed crust pizzas. It is the large size, and is 14".

As for the sweetness, I think it is enhanced by the use of the sucralose. Sucrose, which you mentioned, is just table sugar, which is also part of the PH dough. We don't know how much sucralose is used, or even how much sugar (sucrose) is used, because, under FDA rules and regulations (see https://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.4), the ingredients after the 2% number do not have to be listed in the order of predominance by weight. The ingredients before the 2% number have to be in the order of predominance by weight and they will be used at rates exceeding 2%. This situation may not be of much help to us because the dough that PH makes and the stores use is frozen, and there are things that you do to make frozen dough that you do not have to do when you make fresh dough. And if you do not use sucralose, that means that you will want to use more sugar to get the same sweetness effect on the palate when eating the crust. According to Tom Lehmann, you are talking about 4-5% sugar or maybe a bit more to detect it in the finished crust. That is about the value I eventually ended up with for the Papa John's clone dough.

FYI, a common brand that uses sucralose is Splenda. However, it is not in pure form and includes fillers and often combines the sucralose with sugar (sucrose) in packets to be more user friendly.

As for your Polly-O mozzarella string cheese, you should know that Polly-O is part of Kraft. And, according to https://www.kraftrecipes.com/product/00071040605098/polly-o-low-moisture-part-skim-mozzarella-string-cheese-48-counts, the nutrition information is similar to the other string products I discussed earlier in this thread. So, it is likely that the Polly-O product may behave like a typical Kraft string cheese product. In your case, you can test other brands to see if you can get a quicker melt that approaches the melt that PH gets with its string cheese.

You might also want to look for skinnier strings. Upon closer examination this morning, it appears that the PH string cheese stick has a slightly smaller cross section than the other two cheeses after I had rolled the other two cheese sticks between the palms of my hands to get them rounder rather than oval or slightly flat. In support of the thinner PH string is that its length is about 1.8-1.9 times that of the other two strings but its weight is nowhere near 1.8-1.9 times the weights of the other two products. Since the total weight of the five PH string pieces is 180 grams, or 6.35 ounces, you might find a way to trim some of your string pieces to make them skinnier yet weigh a total of 180 grams.

Peter

P.S. I had two more reheated slices for lunch today and I could still detect the sweetness and saltiness and the tender and soft cheese in the rims. I think a good part of the sweetness is from the sucralose. And I also think that the pepperoni, at 1040 mg Sodium, or the equivalent of almost 1/2 teaspoon of salt, contributes noticeably to the saltiness as it floats in the fat rendered from the pepperoni.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #42 on: November 12, 2018, 01:55:26 PM »
Pod4477,

I have been playing around with the numbers to see what might be a possible dough formulation for you to use for test purposes. But because the PH crust is based on a frozen dough, which I assume you do not want to make, I have some questions. I am also assuming that the dough is for a large (14") original stuffed crust pizza. For now, I will also be assuming a 22-ounce dough ball weight.

To help you with this exercise, here is the information on the large stuffed crust:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS. CHEESE: MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CHEESE CULTURES, SALT, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, ENZYMES), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, NONFAT MILK, FLAVORS.

Here are my questions, at least the ones that come to mind at this juncture:

1. What brand and type of flour do you plan to use?

2. Do you plan to use vital wheat gluten and, if so, what brand?

3. On the assumption that you will not be using sucralose, do you want the same degree of sweetness of the crust, as by increasing the amount of sugar?

4. What type of yeast do you plan to use?

4. Which brand of string cheese do you plan to use?

FYI, the cheese in the above ingredients statement is the string cheese, not the cheese inside of the rim of the pizza.

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2018, 04:47:41 PM »
Pod4477,

I have been playing around with the numbers to see what might be a possible dough formulation for you to use for test purposes. But because the PH crust is based on a frozen dough, which I assume you do not want to make, I have some questions. I am also assuming that the dough is for a large (14") original stuffed crust pizza. For now, I will also be assuming a 22-ounce dough ball weight.

To help you with this exercise, here is the information on the large stuffed crust:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS. CHEESE: MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CHEESE CULTURES, SALT, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, ENZYMES), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, NONFAT MILK, FLAVORS.

Here are my questions, at least the ones that come to mind at this juncture:

1. What brand and type of flour do you plan to use?

2. Do you plan to use vital wheat gluten and, if so, what brand?

3. On the assumption that you will not be using sucralose, do you want the same degree of sweetness of the crust, as by increasing the amount of sugar?

4. What type of yeast do you plan to use?

4. Which brand of string cheese do you plan to use?

FYI, the cheese in the above ingredients statement is the string cheese, not the cheese inside of the rim of the pizza.

Peter

Thank you Peter.  For some reason I always thought their large was 16", so I was mistaken.  For some reason I never measured it and happy to know it's 14" as this is what my pan is as well.  I was also pretty tired and meant to type Sucralose.  It's awesome that you were able to tell the sweetness and saltiness.  Makes sense some of the saltiness would be from the pepperoni.  I'm very happy and appreciative that you will help we with a dough formulation for this pizza.  Funny thing is that I'm starting to get into sweeter doughs as I tasted Auntie Anne's and noticed a sweetness as well, along with Texas Rhoadhouse rolls.  The two taste very similar.  To answer your questions:

1.  Lately I have stocked up on Gold Medal All Purpose and Gold Medal Bread Flour, but can always buy other types.
2.  I can use Vital Wheat Gluten and have seen Bob's Red Mill VWG at Market Basket.  I am open to any brand that is sold here though.  If I use bread flour I probably won't need it though correct?  But when using All Purpose I should.
3.  Sure.  I was thinking I could increase the sugar instead of buying Sucralose.  I usually try and stick with regular sugar when I can.
4.  I plan on using IDY as I have a ton of it left, but if you feel there is a better one I can use whatever type.
5.  I will be trying all string cheese around my area, but for now I have a lot of the Polly-O left. 

 Just to make sure, when you say cheese inside the rim do you mean the shredded mozzarella cheese on top of the sauce?  The cheese in the rim of the crust is the string cheese right?  I also didn't realize milk was still on the list from the Nutrionix website.

Again thank you a million!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 04:51:35 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2018, 06:25:12 PM »
To answer your questions:

1.  Lately I have stocked up on Gold Medal All Purpose and Gold Medal Bread Flour, but can always buy other types.
2.  I can use Vital Wheat Gluten and have seen Bob's Red Mill VWG at Market Basket.  I am open to any brand that is sold here though.  If I use bread flour I probably won't need it though correct?  But when using All Purpose I should.
3.  Sure.  I was thinking I could increase the sugar instead of buying Sucralose.  I usually try and stick with regular sugar when I can.
4.  I plan on using IDY as I have a ton of it left, but if you feel there is a better one I can use whatever type.
5.  I will be trying all string cheese around my area, but for now I have a lot of the Polly-O left. 

Just to make sure, when you say cheese inside the rim do you mean the shredded mozzarella cheese on top of the sauce?  The cheese in the rim of the crust is the string cheese right?  I also didn't realize milk was still on the list from the Nutrionix website.

Pod4477,

I think it may be worth going with bread flour at first and, if that goes well, we should be able to come up with a version using vital wheat gluten (VWG) if you should so wish. I am waffling a bit because the VWG serves more than one purpose in a dough. VWG is used to raise the protein content and absorption of flour, increase dough tolerance, and improve the volume and crumb texture of the finished product (see http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_13DOUG.PDF). I often see vital wheat gluten used in doughs, but it is a fairly recent application by PH. Flour is cheaper than VWG and PH should not have a problem getting a flour with the right protein content up front so I suspect that PH is using the VWG for its structural benefits to the dough.

I also don't see a reason not to use IDY. For many years, fresh yeast was used for making frozen dough. But these days other forms can be used. There are even special yeast strains targeted especially for frozen dough but they are more expensive and not widely used.

Adding more sugar should also not be a problem. I'm sure that you can find a source of pure sucralose but from what I have seen it ain't cheap:

https://www.amazon.com/slp/pure-sucralose/qvvrdjry45p967d

You will also note from the ingredients statement that I gave you in my last post that there are ingredients like DATEM, ascorbic acid and potassium chloride. As mentioned in an earlier post, DATEM is an emulsifier that helps bind things together and strengthens the dough. Ascorbic acid (commonly known as Vitamin C) is commonly used in frozen doughs. According to Tom Lehmann, it is an oxidant that helps to reverse the dough weakening effects of glutathione that leaches out of the yeast cells that are damaged during freezing. That makes for a stronger dough after it is slacked out/thawed. Since your dough will be a fresh dough, there is no need to use ascorbic acid in your dough. The potassium chloride (KCl) is a common substitute for sodium chloride (salt, or NaCl) but I believe that PH uses it, along with salt, to improve the meltability of the shredded cheese that is used on their pizzas. This phenomenon is discussed here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21787912

You will also note from the ingredients statement that I gave you that there is more yeast than soybean oil. I estimate that there is maybe 3% or more soybean oil in the PH dough. So, more than 3% is a big number although larger than normal amounts of yeast are used for frozen doughs because some of the yeast is killed by the freezing process. What is not clear is what kind of yeast PH is using. It might be fresh yeast but it could be a combination of a regular yeast and dead yeast where the dead yeast adds flavor and also helps keep the dough soft at the time it used to make pizzas. The FDA does not require that the dead yeast be separately disclosed. I have seen this phenomenon before. See, for example, the ingredients statement for a Rich's frozen pizza dough at:

https://richsfoodservice.com/products/06752/

What complicates matters in our project is the inclusion of the string cheese in the dough formulation as given at the Nutritionix website, at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show. Absent nutrition information for just the string cheese, we have to estimate nutrition components like fat and sodium. But having the string cheese sample that PH gave me and being able to weigh it should make it a bit easier to estimate some of the nutritional components since the PH string cheese is likely to be in the same ballpark nutritionally as other string cheeses on the market. Its structure will be somewhat different, that is, slimmer and longer, but that shouldn't affect the nutritional components.

To answer your question about the shredded cheese, yes, it is the shredded mozzarella cheese that is used in the main part of the pizza, not inside the rim. Its ingredients are these:

INGREDIENTS: MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CHEESE CULTURES, SALT, ENZYMES), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, SUGAR CANE FIBER, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, NATURAL FLAVORS, ASCORBIC ACID (TO PROTECT FLAVOR). CONTAINS: MILK

You can tell that the cheese is shredded because of the sugar cane fiber. Sugar cane fiber is a more natural form of anti-caking agent that Leprino Foods has recently been using (and is also being used in Papa John's shredded cheese). And you will see our old friend potassium chloride again. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it is the potassium chloride that, along with the salt, improves the meltability of the string cheese in the rim, and also the cheese in the main part of the pizza. In the course of my research, I do not recall seeing potassium chloride in the retail mozarella cheeses that I studied.

Peter



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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2018, 11:01:14 PM »
Pod4477,

I think it may be worth going with bread flour at first and, if that goes well, we should be able to come up with a version using vital wheat gluten (VWG) if you should so wish. I am waffling a bit because the VWG serves more than one purpose in a dough. It increases the protein content of the flour used in the dough but it also has textural effects on the finished crust. I often see vital wheat gluten used in doughs, but it is a fairly recent application by PH. Flour is cheaper than VWG and PH should not have a problem getting a flour with the right protein content up front so I suspect that PH is using the VWG for its structural benefits to the dough.

I also don't see a reason not to use IDY. For many years, fresh yeast was used for making frozen dough. But these days other forms can be used. There are even special yeast strains targeted especially for frozen dough but they are more expensive and not widely used.

Adding more sugar should also not be a problem. I'm sure that you can find a source of pure sucralose but from what I have seen it ain't cheap:

https://www.amazon.com/slp/pure-sucralose/qvvrdjry45p967d

You will also note from the ingredients statement that I gave you in my last post that there are ingredients like DATEM, ascorbic acid and potassium chloride. As mentioned in an earlier post, DATEM is an emulsifier that helps bind things together and strengthens the dough. Ascorbic acid (commonly known as Vitamin C) is commonly used in frozen doughs. According to Tom Lehmann, it is an oxidant that helps to reverse the dough weakening effects of glutathione that leaches out of the yeast cells that are damaged during freezing. That makes for a stronger dough after it is slacked out/thawed. Since your dough will be a fresh dough, there is no need to use ascorbic acid in your dough. The potassium chloride (KCl) is a common substitute for sodium chloride (salt, or NaCl) but I believe that PH uses it, along with salt, to improve the meltability of the shredded cheese that is used on their pizzas. This phenomenon is discussed here:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21787912

You will also note from the ingredients statement that I gave you that there is more yeast than soybean oil. I estimate that there is maybe 3% or more soybean oil in the PH dough. So, more than 3% is a big number although larger than normal amounts of yeast are used for frozen doughs because some of the yeast is killed by the freezing process. What is not clear is what kind of yeast PH is using. It might be fresh yeast but it could be a combination of a regular yeast and dead yeast where the dead yeast adds flavor and also helps keep the dough soft at the time it used to make pizzas. The FDA does not require that the dead yeast be separately disclosed. I have seen this phenomenon before. See, for example, the ingredients statement for a Rich's frozen pizza dough at:

https://richsfoodservice.com/products/06752/

What complicates matters in our project is the inclusion of the string cheese in the dough formulation as given at the Nutritionix website, at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show. Absent nutrition information for just the string cheese, we have to estimate nutrition components like fat and sodium. But having the string cheese sample that PH gave me and being able to weigh it should make it a bit easier to estimate some of the nutritional components since the PH string cheese is likely to be in the same ballpark nutritionally as other string cheeses on the market. Its structure will be somewhat different, that is, slimmer and longer, but that shouldn't affect the nutritional components.

To answer your question about the shredded cheese, yes, it is the shredded mozzarella cheese that is used in the main part of the pizza, not inside the rim. Its ingredients are these:

INGREDIENTS: MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CHEESE CULTURES, SALT, ENZYMES), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, SUGAR CANE FIBER, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, NATURAL FLAVORS, ASCORBIC ACID (TO PROTECT FLAVOR). CONTAINS: MILK

You can tell that the cheese is shredded because of the sugar cane fiber. Sugar cane fiber is a more natural form of anti-caking agent that Leprino Foods has recently been using (and is also being used in Papa John's shredded cheese). And you will see our old friend potassium chloride again. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it is the potassium chloride that, along with the salt, improves the meltability of the string cheese in the rim, and also the cheese in the main part of the pizza. In the course of my research, I do not recall seeing potassium chloride in the retail mozarella cheeses that I studied.

Peter

Bread flour will work, but I can also pick up some VWG tomorrow since it is important for the texture of the dough. I have a ton of sugar here so I can use that or sucralose, but like you said it can be expensive to use sucralose. Thank you explaining all this, and I was sure of the purpose of the different added ingredients. Very interesting how they use things for conditioning of the dough and melting of the cheese. Your sample proves very valuable since like you said, it becomes tough since they include the string cheese in the ingredients list and nutrition facts. I didnít know about dead yeast being used, and Iím eager to read up on it. Thank you for the links! I do wonder what type of yeast they are using.

On the subject of yeast, how come when I use suggested IDY or ADY yeast amounts, it always seems to be too much and tastes very yeasty? I did note that the stuffed crust dough did taste a bit yeasty, but it wasnít overly yeasty (it was on a fine line of okay to too much tasting).  The pan dough didnít taste yeasty at all, however. I always tend to lean on the side of less yeast and longer fermentation times, but PH probably doesnít do this as you said they are using more yeast than oil, and it tasted like that. Even when I do conversions for fresh or ADY into IDY, it still seems like way too much IDY for my liking. On the deep dish dough, it took me 2 times of lowering the IDY to be at a point where it was barely noticeable taste wise in the final crust. Just something Iíve wondered. Iíve found with .20%-.27% IDY I canít taste it, but even 1% I can.

Thank you as I was also wondering what sugar cane fiber is and potassium chloride. I still canít believe I overlooked the milk in the ingredients list. Using milk powder and oil in my jimmy johns bread has proved amazing results this past week.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2018, 11:05:09 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2018, 01:55:37 PM »
Pod4477,

With respect to your question about the yeast and its contribution to taste, I can't say that I have an answer. I recall using a lot of yeast to make cracker style doughs, but I really can't say that I found the taste effects of the yeast bothersome. Unfortunately, in our case, where we are trying to come up with a dough formulation, there is no way that I am aware of to be able to tell how much yeast is in a given product, such as a pizza dough or crust. That is where an ingredients statement can help because the ingredients are ordered by their predominance by weight. That can make it easier to work around the baker's percents that can be calculated.

By way of background, when I engage in reverse engineering and cloning projects, my practice is to study the nutrition information to see if I can first nail down the amounts of oil (through examination of the Total Fats) and salt (through examination of Sodium). Sodium can be tricky because it appears in so many places, both in a natural form (albeit in small amount, including in the flour) and as added to a dough formulation. Things like sauces, cheese and many toppings also contain Sodium (salt). However, the advantage of studying the Total Fats and Sodium is that they do not vary much throughout the entire process, from the point of making the dough to the baked pizza.

By contrast, trying to come up with the amount of sugar that might have been added to a dough is much tougher because, in addition to any sugar that might have been added to a dough, there are natural sugars that are present in the dough that are used almost immediately, as well as more complex natural sugars that are locked up in the damaged starch and released by the action of various enzymes in the yeast and flour, such as the alpha amylase. But all forms of sugar are used in the fermentation process and they vary in quantity from moment to moment depending on the type of fermentation (e.g., room temperature or cold fermentation) and the duration of the fermentation of the dough. It may well be that I will have better luck calculating the amount of sugar added to the PH dough because the dough begins its life frozen and there may be less fermentation during the defrosting of the dough and in the period prior to using the dough to make a pizza. Of course, the sucralose can make up for a lot of fermentation issues in providing a crust that is quite sweet.

In the above vein, I once had a series of exchanges with customer service people at Rich Products, quite possibly the best known producer of frozen dough balls, about their Nutrition Facts, more specifically, at what point did the Nutrition Facts apply. After a few exchanges, I finally got this reply:

-the nutrition facts are generated from the point at which the ingredients are mixed together at the formula level. This is based on 100 gram nutritional values provided to us by our vendors for each of the ingredients contained in the formula. The total 100 gram nutritional values at the finished good level are further calculated based on the ďraw weightĒ per serving to provide the information in the Nutrition Facts Panel. Our nutritional values are generated within a database from a wealth of information and not as a result of lab testing.

I am reasonably confident that PH goes through similar procedures in coming up with its nutrition information. But, in general, getting information about technical matters from customer service people can be difficult. Whether they serve professionals or amateur home bakers, they are used to simple questions with simple answers. I suspect that I would have had a difficult time trying to get propriety information from Pizza Hut about their string cheese, or even the basic information that I was able to get out of the sample I got from PH. Now, if you could convince your local PH store to sell you one of their frozen dough balls, you could perform certain tests to be able to determine the hydration of the dough, as defrosted, and possibly the type of flour. Just as I mentioned that it is difficult to determine the amount of sugar or yeast used in a dough formulation, it is also difficult to determine the hydration used in a given dough formulation and also the type of flour from just the nutrition information alone. But here are a couple of tests that one can do with a dough in a home setting to help get answers to these questions:

Reply 15 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46995.msg471406;topicseen#msg471406.

BTW, for your information, the statement CONTAINS MILK at the end of the mozzarella cheese ingredients list I quoted in my last post is a statement that relates to possible allergies--for example, for people who might be lactose intolerant. The milk statement pertains to the milk used to make the cheese, not milk that is added to the dough. Papa John's also uses similar statements at the ends of some of its ingredients lists, including the one for cheese. See, for example, Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58199#msg58199

On the dead yeast matter, you may find these posts by Tom Lehmann of interest:

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17884.msg173301;topicseen#msg173301

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49519.msg503048#msg503048

The dead yeast is often called nonleavening yeast, inactive dried yeast, or glutathione, and is typically used at a rate of 0.5-2%. In the UK, Pizza Hut uses inactive dried yeast for its stuffed crust dough, as noted in the 2017 document at:

https://www.pizzahut.co.uk/order/images/Ingredients-Allegens.cb47c103daa9658f78dde7a8ca93afe0.pdf

In your case, there will not be any need to use dead yeast since your dough will be a fresh version of a PH dough.

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2018, 02:30:16 PM »
Awesome and thorough breakdown for me.  I appreciate it!  I always wondered if some companies based their nutrition facts on lab testing or the wealth of knowledge.  Yeah the yeast thing is strange, but I guess I can always back off the yeast if needed.  I enjoyed reading about how you reverse engineer the dough, as I've wondered how you guys did it.  Sugar does seem like one of the tougher things to figure out in a dough and it doesn't help with the fat that the cheese is included in the PH dough.  Thank you for the links!  I would be pretty happy if PH was able to sell me a dough ball and I could ask next time I go there.  It's crazy that they closed down all PH locations within an hour of me traffic wise.

Oh whoops, the cheese ingredients added to the dough definitely confused me with regards to the milk.  Thank you for clearing that up for me.  Do you think PH is using dried milk or something similar in their stuffed crust dough since it seems to be left out of the ingredients?  I know you've found they used it in the pan dough, however.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2018, 03:13:09 PM »
Oh whoops, the cheese ingredients added to the dough definitely confused me with regards to the milk.  Thank you for clearing that up for me.  Do you think PH is using dried milk or something similar in their stuffed crust dough since it seems to be left out of the ingredients?  I know you've found they used it in the pan dough, however.

Pod4477,

In disclosing ingredients statements there are rules and regulations of the FDA that have to be followed. And it would not be wise for PH to not disclose the use of dried milk or something similar because people who are lactose intolerant or with other dairy related medical issues could be harmed by eating the PH pizzas. And that could possibly lead to a recall of products already in the pipeline if the FDA were to be notified of PH's failure to disclose the use of the dairy products in question.

The above may be moot as applied to the PH pan dough because as shown at the Nutritionix website at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23439/original-pan-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show, there is no dried milk or anything like it for the PH pan dough, so there is no need for an allergen statement:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

However, at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23440/rectangular-crust/?grp=2780&hideServ=1&show, there is a rectangular crust pizza that does include whey, which is derived from cheese making but is not on the PH allergen list.

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP OR SUGAR, WHEY, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, DATEM, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

The above said, the PH stuffed crust dough as given at the Nutritionix website at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show does contain nonfat milk but for the string cheese, not the dough itself, as noted here:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS. CHEESE: MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CHEESE CULTURES, SALT, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, ENZYMES), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, NONFAT MILK, FLAVORS.

And if you are wondering what TBHQ is it stands for Tertiary Butylhydroquinone and is an anti-oxidant to protect the soybean oil from oxidation. The modified food starch and the nonfat milk serve to alter the properties of the finished cheese in terms of taste, texture, color and baking performance. Enzymes in baking can mean just about anything. But for a nice article on enzymes used in baking, and also related factors, see:

http://www.biokemi.org/biozoom/issues/516/articles/2309

I perhaps should also mention that while PH does not use enzymes in the UK for its stuffed crust dough it does use several for its pan pizza dough, including Alpha Amylase, Glucose Oxidase, Amyloglucosidase, and Xylanase, as noted in the 2017 UK document cited in my last post and also in the 2018 document at:

https://www.pizzahut.co.uk/restaurants/r/SysSiteAssets/rebrand/food/nutritionalinformation/pzh3084_8828_nutritional_booklet_210x297_ra_v2.pdf/

So, it may be the same or similar enzymes that are used by PH in the US stuffed crust dough. Again, you will not be using such enzymes in the dough you make but it helps to rule them out.

BTW, I edited my last post go give you links to posts that discuss dead yeast even though it won't apply to what you want to do.

So, if we rule out the things that apply to the PH stuffed crust dough that we do not have to consider, we are left with this:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

And in the above recitation, the yeast will move to a different position in the sequence, most likely in the 2% or less category, unless fresh yeast is used. As I previously noted, under FDA rules and regulations, the items in the 2% or less category do not have to be listed by their predominance by weight. The items before the 2% or less category have to be ordered by weight and they will each be more than 2%.

What I also found interesting is that if we eliminate the unneeded ingredients from the PH large pan pizza dough, as given at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23439/original-pan-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show, we end up with the following:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

As previously mentioned, the sodium stearoyl lactilate, or SSL, is an emulsifier that strengthens and softens the dough. This suggests to me that the stuffed crust dough formulation we come up with may be similar to the pan dough that you tried but with more sugar and salt and maybe more soybean oil, but no dried milk. The PH pan dough does not use sucralose and that is why more sugar is needed for the stuffed crust dough you try.

Finally, before I forget, can you give me the Nutrition Facts for the Gold Medal bread flour if that is the bread flour you plan to use?

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2018, 04:18:26 AM »
Pod4477,

In disclosing ingredients statements there are rules and regulations of the FDA that have to be followed. And it would not be wise for PH to not disclose the use of dried milk or something similar because people who are lactose intolerant or with other dairy related medical issues could be harmed by eating the PH pizzas. And that could possibly lead to a recall of products already in the pipeline if the FDA were to be notified of PH's failure to disclose the use of the dairy products in question.

The above may be moot as applied to the PH pan dough because as shown at the Nutritionix website at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23439/original-pan-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show, there is no dried milk or anything like it for the PH pan dough, so there is no need for an allergen statement:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

However, at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23440/rectangular-crust/?grp=2780&hideServ=1&show, there is a rectangular crust pizza that does include whey, which is derived from cheese making but is not on the PH allergen list.

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP OR SUGAR, WHEY, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, DATEM, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

The above said, the PH stuffed crust dough as given at the Nutritionix website at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show does contain nonfat milk but for the string cheese, not the dough itself, as noted here:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS. CHEESE: MOZZARELLA CHEESE (PASTEURIZED MILK, CHEESE CULTURES, SALT, POTASSIUM CHLORIDE, ENZYMES), MODIFIED FOOD STARCH, NONFAT MILK, FLAVORS.

And if you are wondering what TBHQ is it stands for Tertiary Butylhydroquinone and is an anti-oxidant to protect the soybean oil from oxidation. The modified food starch and the nonfat milk serve to alter the properties of the finished cheese in terms of taste, texture, color and baking performance. Enzymes in baking can mean just about anything. But for a nice article on enzymes used in baking, and also related factors, see:

http://www.biokemi.org/biozoom/issues/516/articles/2309

I perhaps should also mention that while PH does not use enzymes in the UK for its stuffed crust dough it does use several for its pan pizza dough, including Alpha Amylase, Glucose Oxidase, Amyloglucosidase, and Xylanase, as noted in the 2017 UK document cited in my last post and also in the 2018 document at:

https://www.pizzahut.co.uk/restaurants/r/SysSiteAssets/rebrand/food/nutritionalinformation/pzh3084_8828_nutritional_booklet_210x297_ra_v2.pdf/

So, it may be the same or similar enzymes that are used by PH in the US stuffed crust dough. Again, you will not be using such enzymes in the dough you make but it helps to rule them out.

BTW, I edited my last post go give you links to posts that discuss dead yeast even though it won't apply to what you want to do.

So, if we rule out the things that apply to the PH stuffed crust dough that we do not have to consider, we are left with this:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

And in the above recitation, the yeast will move to a different position in the sequence, most likely in the 2% or less category, unless fresh yeast is used. As I previously noted, under FDA rules and regulations, the items in the 2% or less category do not have to be listed by their predominance by weight. The items before the 2% or less category have to be ordered by weight and they will each be more than 2%.

What I also found interesting is that if we eliminate the unneeded ingredients from the PH large pan pizza dough, as given at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23439/original-pan-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show, we end up with the following:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

As previously mentioned, the sodium stearoyl lactilate, or SSL, is an emulsifier that strengthens and softens the dough. This suggests to me that the stuffed crust dough formulation we come up with may be similar to the pan dough that you tried but with more sugar and salt and maybe more soybean oil, but no dried milk. The PH pan dough does not use sucralose and that is why more sugar is needed for the stuffed crust dough you try.

Finally, before I forget, can you give me the Nutrition Facts for the Gold Medal bread flour if that is the bread flour you plan to use?

Peter

Thank you for that info!  I love reading about the different ingredients in dough and I thought I knew a lot until I came to this site  :D. Turns out I had a lot to learn about.  Very good point about the FDA, and I didn't even think of that with regards to lactose. I should have, but I wasn't sure how deceptive some companies can be.  Good to know they aren't using milk in their dough.  The updated ingredient list you wrote looks a lot more natural and nice to see a smaller list.  I found it interesting as well that the Stuffed crust dough is similar to the Pan dough, but sodium stearoyl lactilate was missing from the Stuffed Crust dough, but present in the Pan dough.  It's funny, I never thought a lot of sugar would be used in a pizza dough, but it's an awesome observation.  So I'm assuming Sucralose, granulated sugar, or brown sugar probably are main factors as well in the sweetness of Texas Rhoadhouse Rolls and Auntie Anne's pretzels.  I'm new to sweet doughs but I also wonder if the SAF Gold Instant yeast would be a good idea since it's meant for high sugar doughs.  I'm not sure if PH's dough would hit the threshold for what SAF considers highly sugary doughs though, but could be helpful.  I think this PH recipe will also help when making pretzels and sweet rolls in the future, and it's kind of a funny coincidence that this PH dough has Sucralose in it.  Reading one of the comments from a worker at Auntie Anne's he said to keep the recipe simple, which to me means they are probably not using all the ingredients in the copycat recipes, and honestly taste to me like just Texas Rhoadhouse Rolls, which I believe are just sweet rolls.  Was a bit off topic, I apologize, but I figured I'd write that before I forgot about in the future lol.

The website still has the outdated bread flour, http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/BreadFlour 4g of Protein is listed compared to my 3g, and this could be from the malted barley flour they used to use.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2018, 05:00:45 AM by Pod4477 »

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Offline MadMatt

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2018, 08:16:41 AM »
Pod you're from Canada right?    Here I am in Britain and several of our big supermarkets sell strong CANADIAN bread flour which an absolutely massive protein content of 14.9% or 14.9g per 100g.   Our British bread flours are typically 12%
    I don't think any US bread flour has that and no it doesn't have any added VWG to get protein up.   

If you're in Canada I'm surprised that they'd sell such strong flours to us and not any for their own.







Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2018, 09:24:48 AM »
Pod4477,

On the matter of the yeast, I have read and heard about the SAF Gold Instant yeast but do not recall anyone on the forum using it to make pizza dough. Sugar levels only start to impair yeast performance when the amount of sugar gets above 5%, and that is for a fresh dough or one that is fermenting. When I came up with clones of the Papa John's doughs, I hovered around the 5% sugar mark. If you are interested in reading about the impact of sugar in a dough, see the section Osmotic Pressure under the heading Dough Development at the theartisan.net website at:

http://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm

You will also read in the above quoted section that salt can also affect yeast performance at high levels. But in a frozen dough, high salt levels can be good for such a dough. But, even then, the maximum value for salt for a frozen dough is around 2-2.5%. In PH's case, the 2% number in the ingredients statement falls in that range. I should also mention that high sugar levels are considered better for frozen dough. Maybe PH could have used levels above 2% but I think they decided to go with lower level because they were using the very sweet sucralose. Lower water levels are also good for frozen dough, as are higher protein levels. For example, with respect to the flour Tom Lehmann has mentioned using flour at around 13.5% protein, or supplementing a lower protein flour with vital wheat gluten.

I realize that we are going to try to go backwards and convert the PH frozen dough to a fresh dough, but you can get a good sense of the frozen side of the equation by reading the following posts by Tom that address the roles of sugar, salt, yeast quantity, flour/VWG, and hydration in the context of frozen doughs:

Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46616.msg513354#msg513354,

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46557.msg467007;topicseen#msg467007, and

Reply 17 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.msg441859#msg441859

My thinking in citing the above posts, as well as information in other posts in this thread, is that it helps to understand how PH got to where it is with its stuffed crust dough so that we don't feel compelled to use many of the ingredient values that PH used in coming up with a fresh dough version that will produce comparable results. However, to this, I would add that the PH dough may not get a great deal of fermentation before being used to make pizzas. If that is a correct assumption, it may be a bit easier to come up with the values for certain ones of the nutrition factors, including for the sugar. I should also note that, according to Tom, PH uses flash freezing of its dough, as discussed in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15785.msg154830#msg154830

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2018, 07:17:13 AM »
MadMatt,
No Iím in the Boston, USA area, but we have may of the same towns as you have. Our Chelsea and Weymouth are probably quite different. I want to visit GB one of these days. Thatís pretty awesome that you can get that high of a protein flour there from Canadian flours. I wish our supermarkets sold it, so then I wouldnít have to bit the high-gluten in bulk.

Peter,
Thank you for the information. I was just thinking to myself last night about how the frozen doughs would differ from the fresh. Thank you for the links! Yeah the SAF Gold seems better for extremely sweet bread and itís not even sold in many stores around here, only the Red one is. Iím kind of used to not much fermentation in some doughs, so that would be fine. Salt was something I was thinking about along with the sugar. I like your approach and reasoning for not feeling compelled to the use the ingredient values. So the reduced fermentation would be likely from decreased fermentation time or the ingredients? I always wish I could flash freeze!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2018, 10:59:30 AM »
Pod4477,

After poring over all of the data on the Pizza Hut doughs and pizzas, and after doing some more analysis and number crunching yesterday, I have set forth below what I believe may be a good place for you to start your experiments. What is posted below is the ingredients statement. I hope some time tomorrow to post a test dough formulation for the stuffed crust pizza, after you have had a chance to read this post and may have comments or questions.

However, for the time being, I have a few observations that I want to pass on to you.

To begin, I believe that PH uses less dough for its stuffed crust pizzas than it uses for its pan pizzas. I came to this conclusion after studying the Nutritionix nutrition data and ingredients lists for four PH pizzas--the PH pepperoni and cheese pan pizzas and the pepperoni and cheese stuffed crust counterparts. I chose the pepperoni and cheese pizzas because they are the simplest and most basic pan-based pizzas that PH sells and, therefore, the easiest to analyze. For both forms of the pizzas, I backed out everything but the dough parts of the pizzas. Having the weight information on the string cheese helped to do this for the PH stuffed crust pizzas. When I then calculated the weights of the dough parts of the two forms of pizza, the weights of the doughs for the pan pizzas was about a couple of ounces more than for the doughs for the stuffed crust pizzas. For the pan pizza dough, the weight was around 22 ounces, for a 14" pizza, and the weight for the stuffed crust dough was around 20 ounces, also for a 14" pizza. However, I must caution you that it is hard to be precise on this point. From what I can tell, the two types of pizzas are prepared differently and their bake times might also be different, so the weight losses might also be different. I also don't know what form the frozen doughs for the two types of pizzas take. They might be round balls, or puck-like doughs or even presheeted pizza dough. You can see an example of presheeted frozen pizza dough at the Rich's website at:

https://richsfoodservice.com/products/34630/

I also do not know how the two types of pizzas are assembled. In my recent visit to my local PH store, I could not see the assembly procedure for the stuffed crust pizza I purchased. So I could not tell whether a sheeter is used or if the rolled out dough is docked or not.

As noted above, the weights for the two different types of doughs as I calculated them were different but for both the pepperoni and cheese pizzas there were some components, such as the weight of the classic marinara sauce (about 4.8 ounces) and the weight of the pepperoni slices (about 3.1 ounces), that were the same. But the amounts of cheese were different for the two styles. For the pan style pizza, both the pepperoni and the cheese, the amount of cheese was about 10 ounces. For the stuffed crust pizza, both the pepperoni and the cheese, the amount of cheese was 5.6 ounces for the main parts of the pizzas plus about 6.4 ounces for the string cheese, or a total of just under 12 ounces. You should also keep in mind that the above data is from the Nutritionix database and may reflect baked weights rather than unbaked weights. I believe that the Nutritionix database was set up in a way as to allow users to create their own pizzas from the various components to come up with the calories and the like for their creations. That feature is available by clicking on Restaurant Calculators at https://www.nutritionix.com/.

In my case, I focused as much as I could on the items that best lend themselves to analysis to come up with a dough formulation to test. As previously mentioned, these include the Total Fats and Sodium. But I also looked at other components such as Carbohydrates and Dietary Fiber but mostly to see if what I come up with is in the ballpark.

For the string cheese nutrients, I based them on the corresponding nutrient values for just about every type of mozzarella string cheese that I could find data on at three of the supermarkets where I shop, and online through searches. I adjusted the values of the PH string cheese nutrients based on my own taste tests and the weight of the string cheese that I got from PH. For example, I thought that the PH string cheese was less salty than the other string cheeses I studied. But I eventually concluded that if I used the values at the top or bottom of the range (e.g., 170-210 mg Sodium, with one reduced Sodium outlier at 110 mg), or an average reading, it would only means slight changes in the amounts of say, salt and soybean oil, in the test dough. And those changes would most likely not be detectible in the final crust. In the case of the PH string cheese, I also thought it tasted better than the other string cheeses I tried (about five total). As previously noted, Leprino does make a reduced sodium string cheese but we have no way of knowing if that is what PH is using or related to my taste test. Similarly, there are low-fat string cheeses but we don't know if that is something that is used by PH. The Nutritionix website is silent as to both of these possibilities.

I also studied the Nutrition Facts for the Gold Medal bread flour that you plan to use. However, unfortunately, it is not possible to come up with a precise protein content for that flour because of the small sample size (30 grams) and the rounding of the numbers such that many of them are zero but would have values above zero if the sample size was, say, 100 grams, as is commonly used in the GM specs for its flours as posted on their website. It would be nice to know the more precise protein content of the GM bread flour in case we decide to come up with a dough version that uses vital wheat gluten. I tried to search for the more precise protein content of the GM bread flour but came up empty. Having good data on the flour also helps because the carbohydrates and dietary fiber are more prevalent there than in other ingredients.

With the above out of the way, here is what I have tentatively come up in the way of an ingredients statement for analysis and for test purposes:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, SOYBEAN OIL, SUGAR, SALT, YEAST (IDY). PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

As you can see, now that we have swept away all of the additives, conditioners, preservatives and the like from the PH frozen pizza doughs, the above is a pretty standard set of ingredients. And going from a frozen dough to a fresh dough and dispensing with the sucralose is the reason why the amount of sugar takes a big jump, and the yeast moves down to the bottom of the ingredients statement where it usually is for most fresh pizza doughs using dry yeast.

Please feel free to comment or to ask questions.

Peter



Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #54 on: November 16, 2018, 02:54:32 AM »
Pod4477,

After poring over all of the data on the Pizza Hut doughs and pizzas, and after doing some more analysis and number crunching yesterday, I have set forth below what I believe may be a good place for you to start your experiments. What is posted below is the ingredients statement. I hope some time tomorrow to post a test dough formulation for the stuffed crust pizza, after you have had a chance to read this post and may have comments or questions.

However, for the time being, I have a few observations that I want to pass on to you.

To begin, I believe that PH uses less dough for its stuffed crust pizzas than it uses for its pan pizzas. I came to this conclusion after studying the Nutritionix nutrition data and ingredients lists for four PH pizzas--the PH pepperoni and cheese pan pizzas and the pepperoni and cheese stuffed crust counterparts. I chose the pepperoni and cheese pizzas because they are the simplest and most basic pan-based pizzas that PH sells and, therefore, the easiest to analyze. For both forms of the pizzas, I backed out everything but the dough parts of the pizzas. Having the weight information on the string cheese helped to do this for the PH stuffed crust pizzas. When I then calculated the weights of the dough parts of the two forms of pizza, the weights of the doughs for the pan pizzas was about a couple of ounces more than for the doughs for the stuffed crust pizzas. For the pan pizza dough, the weight was around 22 ounces, for a 14" pizza, and the weight for the stuffed crust dough was around 20 ounces, also for a 14" pizza. However, I must caution you that it is hard to be precise on this point. From what I can tell, the two types of pizzas are prepared differently and their bake times might also be different, so the weight losses might also be different. I also don't know what form the frozen doughs for the two types of pizzas take. They might be round balls, or puck-like doughs or even presheeted pizza dough. You can see an example of presheeted frozen pizza dough at the Rich's website at:

https://richsfoodservice.com/products/34630/

I also do not know how the two types of pizzas are assembled. In my recent visit to my local PH store, I could not see the assembly procedure for the stuffed crust pizza I purchased. So I could not tell whether a sheeter is used or if the rolled out dough is docked or not.

As noted above, the weights for the two different types of doughs as I calculated them were different but for both the pepperoni and cheese pizzas there were some components, such as the weight of the classic marinara sauce (about 4.8 ounces) and the weight of the pepperoni slices (about 3.1 ounces), that were the same. But the amounts of cheese were different for the two styles. For the pan style pizza, both the pepperoni and the cheese, the amount of cheese was about 10 ounces. For the stuffed crust pizza, both the pepperoni and the cheese, the amount of cheese was 5.6 ounces for the main parts of the pizzas plus about 6.4 ounces for the string cheese, or a total of just under 12 ounces. You should also keep in mind that the above data is from the Nutritionix database and may reflect baked weights rather than unbaked weights. I believe that the Nutritionix database was set up in a way as to allow users to create their own pizzas from the various components to come up with the calories and the like for their creations. That feature is available by clicking on Restaurant Calculators at https://www.nutritionix.com/.

In my case, I focused as much as I could on the items that best lend themselves to analysis to come up with a dough formulation to test. As previously mentioned, these include the Total Fats and Sodium. But I also looked at other components such as Carbohydrates and Dietary Fiber but mostly to see if what I come up with is in the ballpark.

For the string cheese nutrients, I based them on the corresponding nutrient values for just about every type of mozzarella string cheese that I could find data on at three of the supermarkets where I shop, and online through searches. I adjusted the values of the PH string cheese nutrients based on my own taste tests and the weight of the string cheese that I got from PH. For example, I thought that the PH string cheese was less salty than the other string cheeses I studied. But I eventually concluded that if I used the values at the top or bottom of the range (e.g., 170-210 mg Sodium, with one reduced Sodium outlier at 110 mg), or an average reading, it would only means slight changes in the amounts of say, salt and soybean oil, in the test dough. And those changes would most likely not be detectible in the final crust. In the case of the PH string cheese, I also thought it tasted better than the other string cheeses I tried (about five total). As previously noted, Leprino does make a reduced sodium string cheese but we have no way of knowing if that is what PH is using or related to my taste test. Similarly, there are low-fat string cheeses but we don't know if that is something that is used by PH. The Nutritionix website is silent as to both of these possibilities.

I also studied the Nutrition Facts for the Gold Medal bread flour that you plan to use. However, unfortunately, it is not possible to come up with a precise protein content for that flour because of the small sample size (30 grams) and the rounding of the numbers such that many of them are zero but would have values above zero if the sample size was, say, 100 grams, as is commonly used in the GM specs for its flours as posted on their website. It would be nice to know the more precise protein content of the GM bread flour in case we decide to come up with a dough version that uses vital wheat gluten. I tried to search for the more precise protein content of the GM bread flour but came up empty. Having good data on the flour also helps because the carbohydrates and dietary fiber are more prevalent there than in other ingredients.

With the above out of the way, here is what I have tentatively come up in the way of an ingredients statement for analysis and for test purposes:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, SOYBEAN OIL, SUGAR, SALT, YEAST (IDY). PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

As you can see, now that we have swept away all of the additives, conditioners, preservatives and the like from the PH frozen pizza doughs, the above is a pretty standard set of ingredients. And going from a frozen dough to a fresh dough and dispensing with the sucralose is the reason why the amount of sugar takes a big jump, and the yeast moves down to the bottom of the ingredients statement where it usually is for most fresh pizza doughs using dry yeast.

Please feel free to comment or to ask questions.

Peter

Sorry I took so long to respond; been a crazy day.  I'd like to say again how much I really appreciate this.  This has been a recipe that I have tried to replicate for years, ever since most of the PH closed near me.  I do wonder about the process that the dough goes through, as I wasn't able to see it either.  That makes a lot of sense that the stuffed crust dough would be less ounces than the pan dough.  If they go through a sheeter maybe they don't want them to get too big.  I did notice the crust was pretty minimal, maybe to make sure it bakes evenly.

Very important to know that the string cheese actually is less salty, and your analysis is awesome here!  I wonder how many different string cheese are available for purchase lol.  The bread flour is something that I wish had per 100g nutrition facts.  Perhaps, I could use the Gold Medal All Purpose flour or the Restaurant and Hotel flour from Gold Medal, and add vital wheat gluten to that.  I assume the R&H flour has per 100g nutrition facts, but I could be wrong.  Whatever helps your calculations.

Your ingredient statement looks awesome and in the perfect order.  Highly appreciated.  Let me know if there is any more info you need from me before your test dough formulation.  I was going to make a test dough, but figured I'd wait for yours since you would do a better job at it  ;D

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #55 on: November 16, 2018, 11:38:37 AM »
Pod4477,

For our purposes, I decided to look for a GM flour that has Nutrition Facts similar to your Gold Medal bread flour and that would serve as a reasonable proxy for your flour. One GM flour that seemed to fit that bill is the Superlative bleached, enriched and malted flour with a protein content of 12.6% That protein value is common for a bread flour. You can see the Nutrition Facts for the Superlative flour at the 30 gram level, such as you showed in the photo of the bag of your Gold Medal bread flour, at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/superlative-bleached-enriched-malted-25lb

You can see the more specific Nutrition Facts for the Superlative flour at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

By way of explanation as you examine the proposed dough formulation below, I started by trying to determine the amounts of soybean oil and salt in the PH stuffed crust dough. For the soybean oil, I arrived at a value of 3.5%, and for the salt, I arrived at a value of 1.75%, or a little over a teaspoon. But there is a lot more salt in a typical PH stuffed crust pizza because of the other components of the pizza, including the string cheese, the sauce, the shredded cheese inside the rim, and toppings like pepperoni, and so on. To give you an example, a 14" PH stuffed crust pepperoni pizza has 5900 mg of Sodium. That is equivalent to over 2 1/2 teaspoons of table salt. For your favorite buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza, the corresponding amount of salt is a bit over 3 teaspoons.

For the hydration value, I settled on 57%. That is just a starting value since we don't know that value, nor do we currently have a way of determining it. But adding that value to the amount of soybean oil, we get 57 + 3.5 = 60.5%. That value is reasonable for a bread flour that has a typical absorption value of about 62%.

For the sugar, I settled on 4.3%. The objective with that amount is to achieve a noticeable sweetness in the finished crust. That replaces the sugar and sucralose used in the PH stuffed crust dough. FYI, I estimate that the amount of sugar (sucrose) added to PH's dough is below 2% but that includes whatever sugar is in the dough after baking, so the actual amount of sugar added to the dough is perhaps less than 1.5%.

For the yeast, in the form of IDY, I simply took an amount that I often use for a one-day cold fermentation.

After I came up with the above set of values, I decided to check the Total Carbohydrates and Dietary Fiber values of the proposed dough formulation. Surprisingly, I came quite close. The carbohydrates in a dough is basically starch and some of it is lost during the fermentation process. But I have no way of calculating it. As for the Dietary Fiber, it is usually in the flour and, in PH's case, in the string cheese. It is possible that these survive everything in reasonable shape. But I was happy nonetheless to get my numbers close to the calculated values, if only to spare me from having to figure out what I did wrong. I did not check the Protein value for the proposed dough formulation because I almost never get that number right.

You will also note that I did not use a bowl residue compensation for the proposed dough formulation. But I think it would be wise to use one, for example, 1.5%. That should give you a dough ball weight of better than 20 ounces (567 grams). Using your scale, you can trim the dough amount back to 20 ounces, which is the value I propose for your initial test. You will also note that I calculated the thickness factor for the proposed dough formulation. That number, at 0.1299225 (0.13 should be good enough to use), may not mean as much as it normally would because a fair amount of the dough is used to wrap around the string cheese pieces, resulting in a thinner than normal crust thickness in the area of the pizza inside of the enlarged rim. That seemed to be the case with the PH pepperoni stuffed crust pizza that I purchased recently.

Of course, I have no way of knowing what results you will achieve using the proposed PH clone dough formulation. However, I believe that my numbers are credible although I should add that they are based on estimates for some ingredients, like the string cheese, for which we do not have nutrition information. And I am assuming a 20-ounce dough ball weight. So we don't know whether the final product will be like PH's stuffed crust. But you may learn enough to be able to make adjustment to the values of the dough formulation to get you closer to where you want to be. This is a process I went through when I tried to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John's dough. It took me many tries before I reached the point where I felt that I could credibly start the PJ clone thread and start posting on my original PJ clone dough.

All of the above said, you should by all means feel free to ask me any questions you have and to comment on what I propose.

So, without any further ado, here it is:

Bread Flour* (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):
Sugar (4.3%):
Total (166.95%):
339.62 g  |  11.98 oz | 0.75 lbs
193.58 g  |  6.83 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
5.94 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
11.89 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
14.6 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.66 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A
* Superlative bread flour (used as a proxy for the Gold Medal retail bread flour)
Note: Dough is 20 ounces, for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 20/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.1299225; no bowl residue compensation (but suggest 1.5%)

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2018, 04:53:39 AM »
Pod4477,

For our purposes, I decided to look for a GM flour that has Nutrition Facts similar to your Gold Medal bread flour and that would serve as a reasonable proxy for your flour. One GM flour that seemed to fit that bill is the Superlative bleached, enriched and malted flour with a protein content of 12.6% That protein value is common for a bread flour. You can see the Nutrition Facts for the Superlative flour at the 30 gram level, such as you showed in the photo of the bag of your Gold Medal bread flour, at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-spring-wheat/superlative-bleached-enriched-malted-25lb

You can see the more specific Nutrition Facts for the Superlative flour at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

By way of explanation as you examine the proposed dough formulation below, I started by trying to determine the amounts of soybean oil and salt in the PH stuffed crust dough. For the soybean oil, I arrived at a value of 3.5%, and for the salt, I arrived at a value of 1.75%, or a little over a teaspoon. But there is a lot more salt in a typical PH stuffed crust pizza because of the other components of the pizza, including the string cheese, the sauce, the shredded cheese inside the rim, and toppings like pepperoni, and so on. To give you an example, a 14" PH stuffed crust pepperoni pizza has 5900 mg of Sodium. That is equivalent to over 2 1/2 teaspoons of table salt. For your favorite buffalo chicken stuffed crust pizza, the corresponding amount of salt is a bit over 3 teaspoons.

For the hydration value, I settled on 57%. That is just a starting value since we don't know that value, nor do we currently have a way of determining it. But adding that value to the amount of soybean oil, we get 57 + 3.5 = 60.5%. That value is reasonable for a bread flour that has a typical absorption value of about 62%.

For the sugar, I settled on 4.3%. The objective with that amount is to achieve a noticeable sweetness in the finished crust. That replaces the sugar and sucralose used in the PH stuffed crust dough. FYI, I estimate that the amount of sugar (sucrose) added to PH's dough is below 2% but that includes whatever sugar is in the dough after baking, so the actual amount of sugar added to the dough is perhaps less than 1.5%.

For the yeast, in the form of IDY, I simply took an amount that I often use for a one-day cold fermentation.

After I came up with the above set of values, I decided to check the Total Carbohydrates and Dietary Fiber values of the proposed dough formulation. Surprisingly, I came quite close. The carbohydrates in a dough is basically starch and some of it is lost during the fermentation process. But I have no way of calculating it. As for the Dietary Fiber, it is usually in the flour and, in PH's case, in the string cheese. It is possible that these survive everything in reasonable shape. But I was happy nonetheless to get my numbers close to the calculated values, if only to spare me from having to figure out what I did wrong. I did not check the Protein value for the proposed dough formulation because I almost never get that number right.

You will also note that I did not use a bowl residue compensation for the proposed dough formulation. But I think it would be wise to use one, for example, 1.5%. That should give you a dough ball weight of better than 20 ounces (567 grams). Using your scale, you can trim the dough amount back to 20 ounces, which is the value I propose for your initial test. You will also note that I calculated the thickness factor for the proposed dough formulation. That number, at 0.1299225 (0.13 should be good enough to use), may not mean as much as it normally would because a fair amount of the dough is used to wrap around the string cheese pieces, resulting in a thinner than normal crust thickness in the area of the pizza inside of the enlarged rim. That seemed to be the case with the PH pepperoni stuffed crust pizza that I purchased recently.

Of course, I have no way of knowing what results you will achieve using the proposed PH clone dough formulation. However, I believe that my numbers are credible although I should add that they are based on estimates for some ingredients, like the string cheese, for which we do not have nutrition information. And I am assuming a 20-ounce dough ball weight. So we don't know whether the final product will be like PH's stuffed crust. But you may learn enough to be able to make adjustment to the values of the dough formulation to get you closer to where you want to be. This is a process I went through when I tried to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John's dough. It took me many tries before I reached the point where I felt that I could credibly start the PJ clone thread and start posting on my original PJ clone dough.

All of the above said, you should by all means feel free to ask me any questions you have and to comment on what I propose.

So, without any further ado, here it is:

Bread Flour* (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.75%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):
Sugar (4.3%):
Total (166.95%):
339.62 g  |  11.98 oz | 0.75 lbs
193.58 g  |  6.83 oz | 0.43 lbs
1.36 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.45 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
5.94 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.06 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
11.89 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.62 tsp | 0.87 tbsp
14.6 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.66 tsp | 1.22 tbsp
567 g | 20 oz | 1.25 lbs | TF = N/A
* Superlative bread flour (used as a proxy for the Gold Medal retail bread flour)
Note: Dough is 20 ounces, for a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 20/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.1299225; no bowl residue compensation (but suggest 1.5%)

Peter

You are the man!  Thank you so much for doing this for me and I will get to work making this dough.  So you said one day cold fermentation.  If I remember correctly, the process was to ferment in the fridge for 24 hours, but should I do any bulk rises at room temp before it goes in the fridge?  I assume the fermentation process is the same as the pan dough.  I expect to roll this dough out and maybe dock it.  Like you, I did note the very thin rolled crust due to the rolling over the cheese.

Your calculations look perfect as always and I was thinking it to be very close to what you have written (mine being wrong :P).  The yeast seems perfect as I use .27% IDY in my deep dish dough and I remember noting the stuffed crust from PH did have a yeastier taste.  My initial guess was going to be in the .30-.40% range so very close to yours.  The water and oil make sense as their dough was pretty standard, but the sugar was something I did not notice, as I'm still very new to taste testing.  I think the cheese and buffalo sauce also make it tough to realize the sugar as the buffalo sauce is PURE sugar and so is the blue cheese I dip my crust into.  So I'm constantly having sugar added on top of my crust with almost every bite.  I can't wait to try this and I thin it's awesome that your calculations match up with with your research and numbers. 

20oz makes sense as well and I'll make sure my first test is exactly 20oz.  Thank you again!  I will try and make my dough ball tomorrow and make the pizza Sunday.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2018, 10:00:21 AM »
Pod4477,

I do not see any need to do anything with the dough other than to get the dough in the refrigerator as soon as possible. That is about as close as we can come to simulating what PH does when it flash freezes its dough and keeps it frozen for whatever time period that is dictated by its delivery schedules to its stores to then be used to make pizzas. I also wanted the amount of IDY to be high enough to simulate the defrost and warmup processes. As previously mentioned, PH uses a lot of yeast (more on this below), even more by percent than the amount of oil used in the dough. I am sure that the high amount of yeast that PH uses is to compensate for the destruction of some of the yeast by the freezing process. It is also possible that the PH yeast includes deactivated yeast to help insure that the dough will be soft enough to be easily handled when the pizza is to be made, and maybe to also add a bit more flavor to the crust. If both forms of yeast are used, that can account for the larger amount of yeast by percent as compared with the percent of soybean oil. A typical rate of use of deactivated yeast, which some call nonleavening yeast, is 0.25-1% (http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_13DOUG.PDF).

Because of the large amount of yeast that PH uses in its stuffed crust dough, a couple of days ago I sent an email to the foodservice section of Rich's Products on that issue inasmuch as Rich's also uses a lot of yeast in its dough. Consider, for example, the "cleaned up" version of the PH ingredients statement for its stuffed crust dough and also one from Rich's for one of its frozen pizza dough balls:

Pizza Hut: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

Rich's: ENRICHED UNBLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON AS FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, ENZYME, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF THE FOLLOWING:HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, SALT, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, ASCORBIC ACID, ENZYME. (from https://richsfoodservice.com/products/06752/)

I intentionally crossed out the additives so as to simplify the comparison of the two doughs. I think you can see how similar the two frozen doughs are. And also how Rich's uses high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar (Tom Lehmann says that it is easier to use liquids than dry ingredients in making frozen commercial doughs). It was because of the above similarity that I sent the email to Rich's. My email was directed to the makeup of the Rich's "yeast". In my email I mentioned the common practice of using fresh yeast and deactivated yeast in frozen doughs. Tom Lehmann says that the amount of yeast to use to make frozen dough is 50% more than what one would use for a fresh dough although I have read elsewhere that even more can be used.

The morning after I sent the email, I received a reply from Rich's. The customer service rep who sent me the reply said that she did not know exactly what I was looking for but that she was forwarding my email to the R&D department at Rich's. I am hopeful that I receive some useful information but it is possible that Rich's treats its yeast composition as proprietary information that it does not disclose publicly.

Because of the abovementioned similarity, you might also want to read how the Rich's frozen dough should be handled at the point of use. Those instructions are at the Rich's website as cited above.

I look forward to your results using the proposed dough formulation and I wish you well. Should you decide that you would like to try a vital wheat gluten version at some point, that should be fairly easy to do, especially with the forum's Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm.

Peter


Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #58 on: November 18, 2018, 08:16:02 AM »
Pod4477,

I do not see any need to do anything with the dough other than to get the dough in the refrigerator as soon as possible. That is about as close as we can come to simulating what PH does when it flash freezes its dough and keeps it frozen for whatever time period that is dictated by its delivery schedules to its stores to then be used to make pizzas. I also wanted the amount of IDY to be high enough to simulate the defrost and warmup processes. As previously mentioned, PH uses a lot of yeast (more on this below), even more by percent than the amount of oil used in the dough. I am sure that the high amount of yeast that PH uses is to compensate for the destruction of some of the yeast by the freezing process. It is also possible that the PH yeast includes deactivated yeast to help insure that the dough will be soft enough to be easily handled when the pizza is to be made, and maybe to also add a bit more flavor to the crust. If both forms of yeast are used, that can account for the larger amount of yeast by percent as compared with the percent of soybean oil. A typical rate of use of deactivated yeast, which some call nonleavening yeast, is 0.25-1% (http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_13DOUG.PDF).

Because of the large amount of yeast that PH uses in its stuffed crust dough, a couple of days ago I sent an email to the foodservice section of Rich's Products on that issue inasmuch as Rich's also uses a lot of yeast in its dough. Consider, for example, the "cleaned up" version of the PH ingredients statement for its stuffed crust dough and also one from Rich's for one of its frozen pizza dough balls:

Pizza Hut: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL.

Rich's: ENRICHED UNBLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON AS FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, ENZYME, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF THE FOLLOWING:HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, SALT, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, ASCORBIC ACID, ENZYME. (from https://richsfoodservice.com/products/06752/)

I intentionally crossed out the additives so as to simplify the comparison of the two doughs. I think you can see how similar the two frozen doughs are. And also how Rich's uses high fructose corn syrup instead of sugar (Tom Lehmann says that it is easier to use liquids than dry ingredients in making frozen commercial doughs). It was because of the above similarity that I sent the email to Rich's. My email was directed to the makeup of the Rich's "yeast". In my email I mentioned the common practice of using fresh yeast and deactivated yeast in frozen doughs. Tom Lehmann says that the amount of yeast to use to make frozen dough is 50% more than what one would use for a fresh dough although I have read elsewhere that even more can be used.

The morning after I sent the email, I received a reply from Rich's. The customer service rep who sent me the reply said that she did not know exactly what I was looking for but that she was forwarding my email to the R&D department at Rich's. I am hopeful that I receive some useful information but it is possible that Rich's treats its yeast composition as proprietary information that it does not disclose publicly.

Because of the abovementioned similarity, you might also want to read how the Rich's frozen dough should be handled at the point of use. Those instructions are at the Rich's website as cited above.

I look forward to your results using the proposed dough formulation and I wish you well. Should you decide that you would like to try a vital wheat gluten version at some point, that should be fairly easy to do, especially with the forum's Mixed Mass Perecentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm.

Peter

Perfect.  Thank you!  I didn't realize that was the reason for PH using so much yeast.  It was a good idea to keep the yeast high enough to simulate the defrost and warmup process.  Also, good idea sending the email and I hope the R&D department gets back to you.  Very interesting about the deactivated yeast.  The link for Rich's doesn't seem to be working now :(.  Thank you for wishing me well and I have make the dough today instead of yesterday.  I was so busy that I got back home late.  I plan on making the pizza on Monday though!  So for the conversion calculator, what exactly would I try and convert with VWG?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #59 on: November 18, 2018, 10:50:11 AM »
Perfect.  Thank you!  I didn't realize that was the reason for PH using so much yeast.  It was a good idea to keep the yeast high enough to simulate the defrost and warmup process.  Also, good idea sending the email and I hope the R&D department gets back to you.  Very interesting about the deactivated yeast.  The link for Rich's doesn't seem to be working now :(.  Thank you for wishing me well and I have make the dough today instead of yesterday.  I was so busy that I got back home late.  I plan on making the pizza on Monday though!  So for the conversion calculator, what exactly would I try and convert with VWG?

Pod4477,

I checked the Rich's link this morning and it worked. If you still have a problem let me know.

Somewhere along the way, Tom Lehmann said that it was common for deactivated yeast to be used in frozen doughs. And, under FDA rules and regulations, the producer of the frozen dough does not have to list it by name. The deactivated yeast can be "buried" in the "yeast" ingredient in the ingredients statement.

As for the possible use of vital wheat gluten, I am assuming that your flour has a protein content of 12.6%, which is also the stated protein content of the Superlative flour that I cited earlier in this thread:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

Tom mentioned that higher protein values are better for frozen doughs and that a value of about 13.5% was a good number for that application. So, if we take the 339.62 grams flour number from the test formulation, and use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm to raise the protein content from 12.6% to 13.5%, we get 334.7216 grams for the flour and 4.8984 grams for the vital wheat gluten. If you add those two numbers together, you get 339.62 grams. As a percentage of the total blend, the vital wheat gluten comes to about 1.44%. It is generally advised not to overdo the use of vital wheat gluten but about 1.44% is on the harmless side. I should add that I used the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten numbers for the above calculation. But the calculator also works for other brands. Also, using vital wheat gluten will also change some of the nutrient values, including Total Fat, Total Carbohydrate, Dietary Fiber and Protein, as you can see at https://www.bobsredmill.com/vital-wheat-gluten.html. However, at roughly four grams of vital wheat gluten, the increases in those nutrients will be slight, with the major increase being for the Protein.

You might be interested to know that the 1.44% vital wheat gluten, along with the salt and sugar, fall neatly within the less than 2% values, as can be seen in the "pruned" PH ingredients statement:

"Pruned" Pizza Hut: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL

I might also add that when Rich's uses vital wheat gluten in one of its frozen pizza doughs (a so called artisan style), the amount used is less than 2%.

The other thing to keep in mind when using vital wheat gluten is to increase the formula hydration by 1 1/2 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten. That is done because vital wheat gluten has different absorption characteristics than flour. In our case, we are talking about 10 grams of added water.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

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