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Author Topic: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone  (Read 1496 times)

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #60 on: November 19, 2018, 02:42:04 AM »
Pod4477,

I checked the Rich's link this morning and it worked. If you still have a problem let me know.

Somewhere along the way, Tom Lehmann said that it was common for deactivated yeast to be used in frozen doughs. And, under FDA rules and regulations, the producer of the frozen dough does not have to list it by name. The deactivated yeast can be "buried" in the "yeast" ingredient in the ingredients statement.

As for the possible use of vital wheat gluten, I am assuming that your flour has a protein content of 12.6%, which is also the stated protein content of the Superlative flour that I cited earlier in this thread:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

Tom mentioned that higher protein values are better for frozen doughs and that a value of about 13.5% was a good number for that application. So, if we take the 339.62 grams flour number from the test formulation, and use the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm to raise the protein content from 12.6% to 13.5%, we get 334.7216 grams for the flour and 4.8984 grams for the vital wheat gluten. If you add those two numbers together, you get 339.62 grams. As a percentage of the total blend, the vital wheat gluten comes to about 1.44%. It is generally advised not to overdo the use of vital wheat gluten but about 1.44% is on the harmless side. I should add that I used the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten numbers for the above calculation. But the calculator also works for other brands. Also, using vital wheat gluten will also change some of the nutrient values, including Total Fat, Total Carbohydrate, Dietary Fiber and Protein, as you can see at https://www.bobsredmill.com/vital-wheat-gluten.html. However, at roughly four grams of vital wheat gluten, the increases in those nutrients will be slight, with the major increase being for the Protein.

You might be interested to know that the 1.44% vital wheat gluten, along with the salt and sugar, fall neatly within the less than 2% values, as can be seen in the "pruned" PH ingredients statement:

"Pruned" Pizza Hut: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL

I might also add that when Rich's uses vital wheat gluten in one of its frozen pizza doughs (a so called artisan style), the amount used is less than 2%.

The other thing to keep in mind when using vital wheat gluten is to increase the formula hydration by 1 1/2 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten. That is done because vital wheat gluten has different absorption characteristics than flour. In our case, we are talking about 10 grams of added water.

Peter

Thank you and sorry I've been taking so long to reply.  Been super busy, but I finally made the dough balls tonight.  I checked the link now and it's working.  Very good for me to read those tips and instructions, thank you!  That's very interesting about the deactivated yeast and something I would have never known about.  Thank you very much for explaining to me the calculator and the VWG calculation.  I should try and get some this week and test it out with the all purpose flour. 

I think it's pretty awesome that the salt, VWG, and sugar all fall within the 2%.  Definitely means your calculations are spot on.  I made 3 doughs tonight and plan on using them later today (11/19). I won't get 24 hour cold ferment on them but definitely over 12 hours.  I doubled your calculations to make two dough balls that I divided after they were mixed, and I did an all-purpose one with .20% yeast just for the heck of it, to make bread sticks.  I know your yeast amount will be perfect but I figured experiment with the other dough.  I used bread flour for the stuffed crust doughs.

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #61 on: November 19, 2018, 11:14:16 AM »
Pod4477,

I look forward to your results. And please don't be afraid to tell me that the dough formulation did not work well or meet your expectations. Feedback is the only way for me to know if I have done things right, especially in this case like this where we are trying to convert a frozen dough of unknown weight and with a lot of additives to a fresh dough without additives. My approach is strictly evidence based, with a few estimates, but we won't know if all of the stars are in alignment until we see your results ;D.

With respect to the vital wheat gluten, it is generally not advised to make too big a jump in the amount of protein. Going from a bread protein level to a high gluten protein level is fine but going from an all purpose protein level to a high gluten protein level is too big a jump. But you can give it a try if you would like.

FYI, I finished off the six string cheese sticks yesterday and of the six I still like the one that PH uses. But of the others, the one I liked the best was the one from Frigo, which is shown and described at http://www.frigocheeseheads.com/en/products/everyday-snacking/string-cheese. It has one of the higher Sodium values (200 mg for a 28-gram stick) but it is its softness that I like because it comes the closest to the PH string cheese, and maybe will melt equally well. The other string cheese sticks were more on the chewy and stiff side.

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #62 on: November 19, 2018, 09:04:18 PM »
Pod4477,

I look forward to your results. And please don't be afraid to tell me that the dough formulation did not work well or meet your expectations. Feedback is the only way for me to know if I have done things right, especially in this case like this where we are trying to convert a frozen dough of unknown weight and with a lot of additives to a fresh dough without additives. My approach is strictly evidence based, with a few estimates, but we won't know if all of the stars are in alignment until we see your results ;D.

With respect to the vital wheat gluten, it is generally not advised to make too big a jump in the amount of protein. Going from a bread protein level to a high gluten protein level is fine but going from an all purpose protein level to a high gluten protein level is too big a jump. But you can give it a try if you would like.

FYI, I finished off the six string cheese sticks yesterday and of the six I still like the one that PH uses. But of the others, the one I liked the best was the one from Frigo, which is shown and described at http://www.frigocheeseheads.com/en/products/everyday-snacking/string-cheese. It has one of the higher Sodium values (200 mg for a 28-gram stick) but it is its softness that I like because it comes the closest to the PH string cheese, and maybe will melt equally well. The other string cheese sticks were more on the chewy and stiff side.

Peter

Just made all three doughs and I appreciate you saying for me not to be afraid to tell you if the dough formulations didn't work well or meet my expectations.  It turns out that your dough formulations were amazing and very close to the PH stuffed crust dough!  Thank you so much.  I do think the amount of yeast was what PH was using, but I do prefer less yeast of around .20%-.27%.  I'm not sure if it is the IDY or not thought that I don't like too much of.  In my tests, I found the stuffed crust had the same yeast amount as your dough formula.  The pan pizza from PH seemed to have less yeast taste than the stuffed crust from PH, although it could have had the same yeast amount as the stuffed crust, but for some reason I didn't taste it as much in the pan dough.  The amount of yeast you used was a perfect amount though, and very close to PH stuffed crust's yeast amount.  My results are as follows:

14" Stuffed Crust (Half Cali Bacon Chicken Ranch/Half Buffalo Chicken):  The Cali Bacon Chicken Ranch was a clone recipe from Dominos and done because my family isn't big on buffalo sauce.  This was the best stuffed crust I've ever made.  I cooked all three doughs at 400 degrees on Pizza setting on my oven.  The pizza setting is basically a convection setting and works really well for pizza, I've found.  I put 4oz soybean oil in the 14" pan and it may have been too much oil for me.  I'm not a huge fan of soybean oil, mainly when it's cooked less.  My 14" pan doesn't really crisp the bottom very well, so that could have also been the issue.  The bottom being gross from too much undercooked soybean oil was my fault though and the pans fault I suspect.  Overall, the dough was fantastic, but I feel that the Gold Medal Bread Flour may not be as good as the All-Purpose Flour taste and look wise.  I have found the crumb to come out a bit yellow from the bread flour, even on my Pizzeria Regina clone.  The yeast taste was subtle and very close to PH, and the crumb looked good to me.  The Polly-O string cheese was delicious and I actually used it as the pizza cheese and the stuffed crust cheese.  It melted very well, but PH's string cheese is better, but this melted very well and tasted very good.  The crust was perfect and soft, and with melted unsalted butter from the microwave brushed on top, it stayed nice and soft.  The crust was very very similar to PH stuffed crust.  I rolled the dough out to about 16" diameter and folded it over the string cheese while in the pan filled with the soybean oil.  It was tough to not get soybean oil on the crust before I rolled it up, so I made sure to leave the excess dough draped over the side of the pan so they didn't get coated with oil.  I cooked it at 400 degrees as a baseline and will use 450 next time, but 400 F pizza setting has worked well for me on the Jimmy John's bread (really 390 F convection but close enough), Stuffed crust, breadsticks, and pan pizza.  I used 20oz dough ball for the stuffed crust and baked this until lightly browned on top.  I didn't want to cook it too much because I wanted it to be lightly cooked like PH around here.  The crust reached 200 F.

11" Pan Pizza (Cali Bacon Chicken Ranch):
I decided to use a 16oz dough ball for the pan pizza and followed yours and the PH operator's instructions for it.  It was the exact same dough as the Stuffed Crust dough, and both were put in the fridge overnight for about 17-18 hours before baking.  I should have followed your instructions of rolling out the pan dough and proofing it in the pan, before putting the pan in the fridge.  But I forgot, so I just took the dough out of the fridge and rolled it out cold to about 8", and then put it in a pan filled with 2oz soybean oil  and let proof in a 110 F proof setting oven for 2-3 hours.  It proofed beautifully and a bit over half the heigh of the pan.  I topped it with garlic parmesan sauce, Perdue short cuts chicken, shredded mozzarella and provolone cheese, diced tomatoes, and bacon (bacon added half way through the bake to prevent burning).  I baked this until 200 F reached throughout the pizza.  Since I was using the sugary stuffed crust dough, it did seem a bit sugary for a pan dough and perhaps a smidge yeasty.  It was still delicious though and the pan crisped up the bottom beautifully. I still didn't like the soybean oil though, compared to corn oil on this pizza.  Next time I'd use an actual pan dough with the smaller amount of sugar.  I noticed your PH pan dough recipe was very similar to Dominos pan dough, although dominos listed palm oil and butter flavoring I believe.

Breadsticks:
I made a 20oz dough ball using your stuffed crust calculations, but used all-purpose Gold Medal flour.  This came out the best of all 3 doughs.  Now I used a new batch of soybean oil in the pan and it tasted better.  Not sure if it's because it crisped up better in a dark pan, but the soybean oil wasn't as gross under the breadsticks. It did crisp up more so I'm guessing that's why it tasted better.  I put soybean oil in a pan.  I took the dough out of the fridge after the 17 hours as the other doughs.  I rolled the dough out in an oval shape and placed the dough in the pan, spreading soybean oil on top.  I placed in the oven and cooked until golden brown and 200 F inside.  I took it out of the oven and brushed melted butter on it like the stuffed crust, followed by half mccormick oregano/half Italian oregano, and parmesan cheese.  I cut it into strips and the taste was fantastic.  It didn't taste too yeasty and the sugar was good in it.  I think it needed salt on top of the dough, but I think I would use a pan dough recipe next time for this dough instead.  I would keep the sugary dough for the stuffed crust mainly.  I dipped it in Dominos marinara, which tasted just like PH marinara.

Note: I did notice my dough balls didn't come out to exactly 20oz though even though I scraped up every bit of dough out of the bowl and dough hook.  Maybe my scale was a few grams off for each ingredient.  The breadsticks and Stuffed Crust tasted exactly like Pizza Hut though.  I'll post pics from my phone in a few.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 09:20:43 PM by Pod4477 »

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #63 on: November 21, 2018, 09:38:13 AM »
Pod4477,

I am glad to hear that the pizzas and breadsticks worked out well for you. I look forward to seeing your photos, but with Thanksgiving upon us don't feel that you have to rush with the photos.

I can't say that I am surprised that the same dough worked out well for all three applications. From my research, I observed that the PH ingredients for their pan and stuffed crust doughs are quite similar. That is also true of their hand tossed doughs. For example, for comparison purposes, see these Nutritionix ingredients statements:

Original Pan™ Crust (Large): DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

Original Stuffed Crust (Large): DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS

Hand Tossed Crust (Large): ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

As you can see from the above, there are many similarities but a few differences also. In fact, if you were to strike out all of the items that we struck out before in the PH dough ingredients statements, the similarities become much starker.

Further, as I previously mentioned, I believe that the amounts of dough for the pan and stuffed crust pizzas are different, but only by a couple of ounces by my calculation (with the pan dough being greater). Also, I believe that the amount of soybean oil used in the pans is quite a bit greater than used for the stuffed crust pizzas. Unfortunately, the Nutritionix database does not show any specific information on the pan soybean oil. I believe that that was intentional since users of the Nutritionix database to create nutrition information for meals that they put together are not going to include the pan soybean in the meals that they create.

As for the PH breadsticks, there is not a lot of ingredients statements in the Nutritionix database for the dough used by PH for their various breadsticks. I believe that this is the only one:

INGREDIENTS: DOUGH: ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMIN MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SALT, SOYBEAN OIL, HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, DATEM, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS.

Again, you can see similarities and differences when compared with the other doughs. However, some pizza places use the same dough for their breadsticks as they do for some of their pizzas. That is the case with Papa John's. They use the same dough for their breadsticks as they do for their 14" (large) original pizzas.

In your last post, you indicated that you had a hard time getting 20 ounces of dough. Did you use a bowl residue compensation by any chance?

On another topic, you indicated your preference for the Gold Medal all purpose flour for the PH clone stuffed crust dough. With that in mind, yesterday I did some research to see if there is a way of using that flour, possibly along with vital wheat gluten, in a way that will comply with the PH ingredients statement, including its amount, and also the related Nutrition Facts. I will address this matter in my next post.

In the meantime, I hope that you and your family have a great Thanksgiving. You might set aside some of the turkey to use to make a clone of a buffalo turkey stuffed crust pizza as given at https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/buffalo-chicken-large-original-stuffed-crust-slice/?show  ;D.

Peter


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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #64 on: November 21, 2018, 12:37:13 PM »
Pod4477,

In my last post, I alluded to the possibility of using the Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour to make the Pizza Hut stuffed crust dough.

As you know, the Nutrition Facts for the above flour, as given at the General Mills website at http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/AllPurpose, do not tell us a lot because the sample size is small (30 grams) and the numbers are rounded. Because of that, the protein content based on the Nutrition Facts can range from about 8.8-12%. But we know that that those numbers are not accurate. Even the 10% number (30/3 = 10) is unlikely to be accurate. So, what I decided to do was to send an email to GM from the GM retail website. In that email, I asked for a more accurate protein number for the Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour, one that was determined in their laboratories.

Given that this will be a short work week, and while waiting for a response from GM, I decided to see if I could find a flour on the GM professional/commercial website that came closest to the Gold Medal retail flour. I soon saw that the flour would have to be an all purpose flour. And after poring over several possibilities, I felt that the closest GM flour to the Gold Medal flour is an H&R all purpose flour with specs as given at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/all-purpose/bleached-enriched-malted-5lb-8ct, and

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=14475000

I selected the above flour because the specs are for a five-pound bag of flour. But there are other similar GM flours with slightly different specs. But they all pretty much give the protein content as 10.5%.

Armed with the above information, I then decided to calculate how much vital wheat gluten I would need to raise the protein content of the GM H&R flour from 10.5% to a greater value but not to the point where the amount of vital wheat gluten would be above 2%, which is prohibited by the ingredients statement for the PH stuffed crust dough. So, I started testing different values in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm. For my purposes, I assumed that the vital wheat gluten would be the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten as described at https://www.bobsredmill.com/vital-wheat-gluten.html. The target mass I used was the 339.62 grams of flour, which is the amount I specified in the dough formulation I recently gave you. After testing several target percent values in the abovementioned calculator, I concluded that it was safe to raise the protein value of the flour from 10.5% to 11.7%. That yielded a value for the vital wheat gluten of 6.3185 grams. Subtracting that from the 339.62 grams of flour mentioned above, gave us 333.3015 grams for the amount of flour in the blend. The above 6.3185 grams of vital wheat gluten is about 1.86%, and safely below the 2% threshold. Had I gone beyond 11.7%, the amount of vital wheat gluten might have exceeded the 2% threshold.

You will note that, at 11.7%, the protein content is barely out of the all purpose range, although there are some who would put that value in the bread flour range. But I have observed that all purpose flours tend to have wider variations in protein content than bread flours and high gluten flours, as can be seen in the specs cited above. That aside, I think that pan and stuffed crust pizzas may benefit more from lower protein flours than flours with higher protein content. I originally went with bread flour because of what members on the forum have found to be a reasonable choice. And that might have been based on frozen dough that benefits from higher protein flours.

I thought that I had concluded this exercise when, out of curiosity, I wondered how the above H&R flour/vital wheat gluten blend would comply with the PH information as given at the Nutritionix website at:

https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show

As a simple exercise, I decided to see if I could calculate the combined caloric values of: (1) the H&R flour/blend as discussed above, (2) the PH string cheese (as I had previously estimated that value), and (3) all of the other ingredients (water, salt, sugar, soybean oil and IDY) that I used in the dough formulation I gave you. (I quickly learned that water, salt and IDY have zero calories and most of the calories are in the flour and cheese.) I would then compare the total with the total caloric value of the PH stuffed crust dough as set forth at the Nutritionix website as cited above. That number is 1760 calories. I felt that if my number came close to the Nutritionix number, that would be an indication of the merit of what I had done in going through the above exercise to come up with a workable H&R flour/vital wheat gluten blend. FYI, for the PH string cheese, I used a caloric value of 70 calories per stick. That is a number that is used by many producers of mozzarella string cheeses, including Polly-O.

When I was done coming up with all of the calorie numbers and adding them all up, the final number was 1760.45 calories. So, my numbers were off by less than one half calorie. It might seem like I rigged the numbers but I had no idea as to what my number would be until I added up all of the individual numbers on my calculator. I was more afraid that I would be far off. Of course, there are many possible paths to the 1760 number, so mine was only one of many. But I believe that we are safely in the ballpark. I should further note that I went through a second caloric value calculation for just the original flour value (339.62 grams)--that is, without the vital wheat gluten. The total number that time was 1757.2 calories, or shy of the 1760 number by a few calories. But, again, we are safely in the ballpark.

FYI, PH is not using GM flours. The reason I know this is because PH uses ferrous sulfate in its ingredients statements whereas GM uses iron in all of the flours that I looked at. They are both sources of iron, one is a compound and the other is elemental iron.

So, when you think you would like to try using VWG, even with your Gold Medal all purpose flour, I think we should be in decent shape, even if we reduce the amount of IDY.

Peter

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #65 on: November 22, 2018, 11:00:04 PM »
Pod4477,

In my last post, I alluded to the possibility of using the Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour to make the Pizza Hut stuffed crust dough.

As you know, the Nutrition Facts for the above flour, as given at the General Mills website at http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/AllPurpose, do not tell us a lot because the sample size is small (30 grams) and the numbers are rounded. Because of that, the protein content based on the Nutrition Facts can range from about 8.8-12%. But we know that that those numbers are not accurate. Even the 10% number (30/3 = 10) is unlikely to be accurate. So, what I decided to do was to send an email to GM from the GM retail website. In that email, I asked for a more accurate protein number for the Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour, one that was determined in their laboratories.

Given that this will be a short work week, and while waiting for a response from GM, I decided to see if I could find a flour on the GM professional/commercial website that came closest to the Gold Medal retail flour. I soon saw that the flour would have to be an all purpose flour. And after poring over several possibilities, I felt that the closest GM flour to the Gold Medal flour is an H&R all purpose flour with specs as given at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/all-purpose/bleached-enriched-malted-5lb-8ct, and

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=14475000

I selected the above flour because the specs are for a five-pound bag of flour. But there are other similar GM flours with slightly different specs. But they all pretty much give the protein content as 10.5%.

Armed with the above information, I then decided to calculate how much vital wheat gluten I would need to raise the protein content of the GM H&R flour from 10.5% to a greater value but not to the point where the amount of vital wheat gluten would be above 2%, which is prohibited by the ingredients statement for the PH stuffed crust dough. So, I started testing different values in the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm. For my purposes, I assumed that the vital wheat gluten would be the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten as described at https://www.bobsredmill.com/vital-wheat-gluten.html. The target mass I used was the 339.62 grams of flour, which is the amount I specified in the dough formulation I recently gave you. After testing several target percent values in the abovementioned calculator, I concluded that it was safe to raise the protein value of the flour from 10.5% to 11.7%. That yielded a value for the vital wheat gluten of 6.3185 grams. Subtracting that from the 339.62 grams of flour mentioned above, gave us 333.3015 grams for the amount of flour in the blend. The above 6.3185 grams of vital wheat gluten is about 1.86%, and safely below the 2% threshold. Had I gone beyond 11.7%, the amount of vital wheat gluten might have exceeded the 2% threshold.

You will note that, at 11.7%, the protein content is barely out of the all purpose range, although there are some who would put that value in the bread flour range. But I have observed that all purpose flours tend to have wider variations in protein content than bread flours and high gluten flours, as can be seen in the specs cited above. That aside, I think that pan and stuffed crust pizzas may benefit more from lower protein flours than flours with higher protein content. I originally went with bread flour because of what members on the forum have found to be a reasonable choice. And that might have been based on frozen dough that benefits from higher protein flours.

I thought that I had concluded this exercise when, out of curiosity, I wondered how the above H&R flour/vital wheat gluten blend would comply with the PH information as given at the Nutritionix website at:

https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show

As a simple exercise, I decided to see if I could calculate the combined caloric values of: (1) the H&R flour/blend as discussed above, (2) the PH string cheese (as I had previously estimated that value), and (3) all of the other ingredients (water, salt, sugar, soybean oil and IDY) that I used in the dough formulation I gave you. (I quickly learned that water, salt and IDY have zero calories and most of the calories are in the flour and cheese.) I would then compare the total with the total caloric value of the PH stuffed crust dough as set forth at the Nutritionix website as cited above. That number is 1760 calories. I felt that if my number came close to the Nutritionix number, that would be an indication of the merit of what I had done in going through the above exercise to come up with a workable H&R flour/vital wheat gluten blend. FYI, for the PH string cheese, I used a caloric value of 70 calories per stick. That is a number that is used by many producers of mozzarella string cheeses, including Polly-O.

When I was done coming up with all of the calorie numbers and adding them all up, the final number was 1760.45 calories. So, my numbers were off by less than one half calorie. It might seem like I rigged the numbers but I had no idea as to what my number would be until I added up all of the individual numbers on my calculator. I was more afraid that I would be far off. Of course, there are many possible paths to the 1760 number, so mine was only one of many. But I believe that we are safely in the ballpark. I should further note that I went through a second caloric value calculation for just the original flour value (339.62 grams)--that is, without the vital wheat gluten. The total number that time was 1757.2 calories, or shy of the 1760 number by a few calories. But, again, we are safely in the ballpark.

FYI, PH is not using GM flours. The reason I know this is because PH uses ferrous sulfate in its ingredients statements whereas GM uses iron in all of the flours that I looked at. They are both sources of iron, one is a compound and the other is elemental iron.

So, when you think you would like to try using VWG, even with your Gold Medal all purpose flour, I think we should be in decent shape, even if we reduce the amount of IDY.

Peter

Thank you so much and awesome work!  I think it proves how good you are that your calorie calculations came within less than one half calorie!  Why do you think the bread flour is coming out yellow?  I'm pretty sure I made the doughs almost identical, but the bread flour is coming out definitely with a yellow tint, even in my PR clones.  I will be using All-Purpose with VWG this week and the All-Purpose is cheaper for me and 5 min from my house, compared to 30 min away.  So I can just pop the 1.86% VWG into the calculator on this site and basically add that to your calculation you posted on here the other day?

I may even get some H&R All Purpose, but I need to figure out storage.  I really like your method of calculating calories and I am amazed at how close they came to PH.  Amazing work.  I really feel that my last stuffed crust was very very close because of your calculations and I cooked it lower.  400-450 on my oven seems best for a nice soft crust.  I will try 500-550 though too.  The higher the heat the less it will dry out form a long bake time right?  I also seem to debate temp in my home oven, but I know in my Ooni I like 400-600 F for PR.  Do you think it makes sense to bake at 400-450?  Around here it seems that PH always rushes them through the conveyor, so I think that is why I tend to prefer the lower temps.  It still puts a minimal crisp on the crust but it doesn't crisp too much, and comes out very close to PH stuffed crust I've found. 

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #66 on: November 23, 2018, 10:28:10 AM »
Pod4477,

I don't think that there is any rush for you to try a new formulation. I went through the research and calculations for my last two posts because I had time to do it while I waited for a response to the question I posed to GM in my email. And writing what I did and how I did it forces me to crystallize my ideas. And when I can't do that to my satisfaction I usually do more research. This is how I learn. In fact, it is often said that if you want to learn, you should write. See, for example, this article:

https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/a-dead-simple-way-to-get-smarter-write-more.html (see also the Morgan Husel article linked in this article and his more recent article at https://www.collaborativefund.com/blog/selfish-writing/)

I also write to create an archive for what I have done. For example, when you asked about the color of the crust using bread flour, I recalled asking a similar question on the forum many years ago with respect to the 00 flour that a few of us were using. I remembered the thread in which I posed the question--in 2005--and I remembered who answered it (pizzanapoletana, aka Marco). So this morning I found the question at Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1298.msg11701#msg11701 (first paragraph) and Marco's answer at Reply 6 that followed.

So, in your case, it might have been the soybean oil in the dough that was responsible for the increased crust coloration. But it also could be that it was the fact that the bread flour you have been using (http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/BreadFlour) is not bleached (much like the 00 flour referenced above), whereas the all purpose flour that you have been using (http://www.goldmedalflour.com/OurFlourStory/OurFlour/AllPurpose) is bleached. How aggressively you mix and knead the dough can also affect the crust coloration as I also discussed in Reply 5 referenced above.

With respect to the use of the vital wheat gluten, you cannot just use the vital wheat gluten entry in the expanded dough calculating tool because that tool was set up to handle only one flour. In the case we have been discussing, we would use the 339.62 grams number and break it down into the flour part and the vital wheat gluten part. You can see an example of how I do this in the Papa John's thread at Reply 1297 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg495342;topicseen#msg495342

When you are ready to try a dough using vital wheat gluten, let me know and I will try to come up with a dough formulation for you. That formulation will also have to take into account the need to increase the formula hydration to compensate for the fact that, as previously mentioned, the vital wheat gluten has different absorption characteristics than regular flour. Maybe by the time you are ready, I will have gotten a response form GM. I wouldn't want you to try to get a large bag of the GM H&R flour only to find out that that isn't the best match to their retail Gold Medal all purpose flour despite having come very close to the PH calories number. What you might want to do as we wait is to use the same dough formulation you previously used but lower the IDY quantity to the 0.20-0.27% range that you indicated you prefer. And you can play around with the bake temperatures. And, yes, the higher the bake temperature, the more likely the crumb will be softer and with greater volume due to the greater oven spring. Remember, also, that PH is using a conveyor oven and their bake temperatures and times are tailored specifically to the stuffed crust product.

Peter


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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2018, 08:15:35 PM »
Pod4477,

It appears that at one time, apparently before it went to frozen doughs, PH made fresh doughs for its stuffed crust pizzas. This afternoon, after posting in another PH-related thread (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53874.msg540883#msg540883), I decided to revisit some of the PH pdf documents that I cited early in this thread. I was looking for something else but while I was at it I revisited the ingredients in those documents that PH used for its stuffed crust dough. And what I found were ingredients statements that look to be for fresh stuffed crust doughs. Here is a summary of them:

US, 2010:
Water, Vegetable Oil, Classic Premix (Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Soybean Oil, Salt, Yeast.

Canada, 2010: Water, Vegetable Oil, Hand Tossed Premix (Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Soybean Oil, Salt, Yeast.

US, 2014:
Water, Vegetable Oil, Classic Premix (Enriched Bleached Wheat Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Ferrous Sulfate, Thiamine Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Soybean Oil, Salt, Yeast.

I am certain that the above ingredients statements are for fresh doughs because the yeast is the last ingredient in the ingredients statements, based on its weight. And if you look at the ingredients statements closely, in addition to the similarity of the statements, you will also see that there is no sugar or other sweetener present in the statements. Sugar is good for frozen doughs so maybe it was unneeded for PH's fresh stuffed crust dough, but its omission may also have meant that there is no need for sweetness in the finished crust. You will also note that the dough formulation we have come up with has the ingredients in the right order, but for the omission of sugar.

Another interesting thing I discovered when I revisited the PH pdf documents is that in the UK, as of 2017, the PH stuffed crust dough has the following ingredients statement:

Wheat flour, Water, Rapeseed Oil, Yeast (contains Bakers Yeast, Rehydrating Agent (E491)), Salt, Premix (contains Dextrose, Whey (Milk) Powder, Deactivated Yeast, Wheat Gluten, Emulsifiers (Diacetyl tartaric acid esters of mono and diglycerides of fatty acids/mono and diglycerides of fatty acids), Flour Treatment Agent (ascorbic acid E300), Enzymes.

The above ingredients statement is clearly for a frozen dough. However, you will note that it calls for Bakers Yeast and Rehydrating Agent E491. The rehydrating agent is sorbitan monostearate, which coats the yeast cells and protects them from damage by oxygen, and it also assists in the rehydration of the yeast. You will see no sugar in the form of sucrose (table sugar) in the above statement but dextrose is a form of sugar. You will also note the use of Deactivated Yeast. I raise this point because it is possible that in the US, PH is using a combination of a dry form of yeast, either ADY or IDY, and inactivated yeast for its frozen stuffed crust dough. Of course, this is not something for us to be concerned with since we are after a fresh dough. But, it is still interesting to look for clues wherever we can.

From the above, it appears that PH started to go to a frozen dough for the stuffed crust pizzas some time after 2014.

Peter


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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #68 on: November 25, 2018, 03:48:27 PM »
Pod4477,

I thought that you would be interested in these stuffed crust items that I found at the PMQ Think Tank:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/stuffed-crust.17696/

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/stuffed-crust-pizza-opinions.16586/#post-100572http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/how-can-we-compete-with-this.16056/#post-97286

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/usp-point-of-difference.10862/#post-75163http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/the-future-of-bacon.10747/#post-74352

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/stuffed-pizza-black-anodize-pan-or-regular.5208/#post-31045

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/putting-cheese-in-the-pizza-crust-rim.5213/#post-31013

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/thin-crispy-stuffed-crust-recipe.4276/#post-23353

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/ask-tom-lehmann-a-question.9214/page-3#post-66693 (see, also, Tom's reply)

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/is-there-a-stuffed-crust-dr-in-the-house.9006/#post-61409



http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/_lehmann.5219/#post-31058

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/thin-crispy-stuffed-crust-recipe.4276/#post-23353

You will note from a couple of the above items that mention was made that PH sometimes uses its thin original hand tossed doughs to make the stuffed crust pizzas when they run out of the stuffed crust dough. As you can see below, the ingredients for both styles are identical:

INGREDIENTS: Stuffed Crust (Large): ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS. (https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/ingredient/23424/original-stuffed-crust-large/?grp=2745&hideServ=1&show)

Hand Tossed Crust (Large): ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE. PAN OIL: SOYBEAN OIL, TBHQ ADDED TO PROTECT FRESHNESS. (https://m.nutritionix.com/pizza-hut/cheese-large-hand-tossed-slice/?show)

What is not clear from the above is whether you get the same pizza, by weight. It might pay to ask at your local PH which dough they use for their stuffed crust pizzas and if the pizzas made using the two doughs produce pizzas that are identical.

Peter

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2018, 07:23:40 PM »
In an earlier post, I mentioned that I was approaching Rich Products, a major commercial producer of frozen pizza dough balls, about the "yeast" ingredient listed for many of its frozen pizza dough balls. What I was hoping to learn was whether the "yeast" ingredient was fresh yeast or dry yeast and whether it included deactivated (i.e.,"dead") yeast, which is common for frozen dough. My request was greeted by Rich's by asking me to be specific as to what frozen pizza dough I had in mind. So, I selected the Rich's 19-ounce frozen pizza dough ball with the following ingredients statement:

INGREDIENTS FOR U.S. MARKET: ENRICHED UNBLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR (WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, IRON AS FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, ENZYME, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF THE FOLLOWING:HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP, SALT, SODIUM STEAROYL LACTYLATE, ASCORBIC ACID, ENZYME.

It will be noted that the above ingredients statement is similar to the ingredients statement for several of the Pizza Hut frozen pizza doughs, including the PH stuffed crust pizza dough, as follows:

INGREDIENTS: Stuffed Crust (Large): ENRICHED FLOUR (BLEACHED WHEAT FLOUR, MALTED BARLEY FLOUR, NIACIN, FERROUS SULFATE, THIAMINE MONONITRATE, RIBOFLAVIN, FOLIC ACID), WATER, YEAST, SOYBEAN OIL. CONTAINS 2% OR LESS OF: SALT, VITAL WHEAT GLUTEN, DATEM, SUGAR, ENZYMES, ASCORBIC ACID, SUCRALOSE.

Today, I received a response from Rich's that their yeast is just fresh cream yeast, with nothing else added. For those who are not familiar with cream yeast, it is a form of yeast that is typically delivered to users' facilities by tankers. For a good description of that form of yeast, see the following:

http://www.dakotayeast.com/product_cream.html

I have seen evidence from foreign Pizza Hut documents of PH's use of dry yeast and deactivated yeast. Whether that is what PH is doing in the US we do not know. But with PH's dominant position in the pizza industry in terms of volume, it is possible that PH is using dry yeast and deactivated yeast in the US but it might be doing something similar to what Rich's does. The answer is not something we need for purposes of coming up with a fresh clone of PH's dough but it brings closure to the question I posed to Rich's and increases my knowledge about the production of frozen dough a bit.

I have also requested information from General Mills about their retail Gold Medal all purpose flour that Pod4477 has been using. The question I posed to GM was general in nature, and was met with instructions to provide specific information taken from a bag of the Gold Medal flour about which I inquired. For the benefit of any members who might also approach GM at some time about a given flour, this is the type of information that should be provided:

• The UPC/Bar code printed on the package in question.
• The Better if Used by Date and manufacturing code information printed on the package.
• The series number on the packaging


I provided the above information from a fresh bag of flour at my local supermarket and was told that it may take several business days to get a reply from them.

Peter

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Re: Pizza Hut Stuffed Crust Buffalo Chicken Pizza clone
« Reply #70 on: Today at 02:37:31 PM »
In my last post, I mentioned how I provided the information requested by General Mills about the retail Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour that was the basis of my initial inquiry. Several days later, I received a reply in which I was told that the protein content for that flour is 9.8%-12%. That was not what I was hoping for. Rather, I was hoping for a single number, not a range. The range I was given was not much different, or better, than the range of 8.8-12% that I calculated from the Nutrition Facts label for the Gold Medal flour. So, rather than reopen the debate, I decided to ask the customer service rep a follow-up question. Specifically, I asked which GM all purpose flour on the commercial/professional side came closest to the Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour sold at retail. A few days later, the rep responded by telling me that I would have to speak with someone on the foodservice side, and gave me their telephone number (1-800-767-5404).

This morning, I called the above number and spoke with a customer service rep. After giving her the background information pertaining to the Gold Medal bleached all purpose flour, she said that the closest flour on the foodservice side was one of their H&R (hotel and restaurant) flours. When I asked her what the protein content of that flour was, she said 10.5%. It didn't matter which of the GM H&R flours we looked at, the protein content would be 10.5% since all of their H&R bleached all purpose flours, no matter the weights, are identical in terms of their formulations.

Armed with the above information, I went back to Reply 64 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg553016#msg553016 to revisit what I posted there against the information I was given by the GM rep this morning. In so doing, it appears that I hit the nail on the head, both as to the GM flour on the foodservice side that I felt came closest to the Gold Medal retail all purpose flour, and also its protein content (10.5%). So, when and if Pod4477 decides to proceed further with a blend of an all purpose flour with vital wheat gluten in an effort to try to further recreate the Pizza Hut stuffed crust dough, I think we will be in the ballpark and perhaps nudge closer to what PH is doing with that dough.

As an interesting side note, when I asked the rep on the foodservice side what the enzymes are that are used in the retail Gold Medal all purpose flour, she said that she did not know. When I asked if they might be fungal amylase, she said that she had never heard of it. All of this is understandable since on the foodservice side of the GM flour business, fungal amylases are not used. Or, at least, I have never seen mention of fungal amylase in any GM spec sheet that I have looked at.

Peter

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