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Offline TMB

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Whole Wheat Flour crust
« on: December 12, 2018, 10:58:17 AM »
I'm sure I'm just over looking this, but has anyone used whole wheat for their crust ?

Just wondering what if any white flour needs to be mixed into it to make it better or use as is?    I know that my father would use 50/50 bread flour/whole wheat for homemade breads but not sure if pizza crust would be different. ??? 
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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2018, 11:48:14 AM »
I'm sure I'm just over looking this, but has anyone used whole wheat for their crust ?

Just wondering what if any white flour needs to be mixed into it to make it better or use as is?    I know that my father would use 50/50 bread flour/whole wheat for homemade breads but not sure if pizza crust would be different. ???

Yes, whole wheat will work but you will not get as good a rise compared to white flour. If you want to try that I would recommend finding some white whole wheat. I is still whole wheat but has a bit milder flavor. If you can screen out some of the bran that will help a lot too... You will likely need to find 100% stone ground if you want to try to remove any bran.....
Norm
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Offline TMB

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2018, 11:53:40 AM »
Yes, whole wheat will work but you will not get as good a rise compared to white flour. If you want to try that I would recommend finding some white whole wheat. I is still whole wheat but has a bit milder flavor. If you can screen out some of the bran that will help a lot too... You will likely need to find 100% stone ground if you want to try to remove any bran.....
OK great!   Rise in the crust is not as important as the texture and flavor in lower carb crust :chef:

Thanks Norm, your help over the last few months has really been GREAT for lowering the carb counts and flavor on my recipes.        I'll go get some and see how it does 
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Online Jackitup

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2018, 12:33:25 PM »
Also, I think the WWW is milled finer than regular whole wheat and is already pretty fine, as in the Hodgson's Mills or King Arthur brands, Ultragrain is another higher end brand that comes to mind. All behave MUCH better than regular WW.
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

Offline TMB

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2018, 12:38:33 PM »
Also, I think the WWW is milled finer than regular whole wheat and is already pretty fine, as in the Hodgson's Mills or King Arthur brands, Ultragrain is another higher end brand that comes to mind. All behave MUCH better than regular WW.
I beleive you ar right.  I have been studying the WWW and believe it's what I'm looking for  :chef:

thanks
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Online Jackitup

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2018, 12:41:17 PM »
I've used the Ultragrain in the past.
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2018, 12:42:36 PM »
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=search2

Type in Ultragrain in advanced search box, link didn't work right
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2018, 12:46:19 PM »
Eagle Mills makes it I believe
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2018, 08:45:29 PM »
TMB,   I have been primarily making 100% home milled wheat pizza for years.  I agree with Norm,  WWW has a milder flavor, and i prefer that, though a 20 to 35% Red whole wheat will give it an interesting taste.    My thought is that whole wheat requires a hotter oven to get a good taste .   Many have cooked a very good pie in a home oven with regular flour,  if you search through the threads here,  you will see that Villa Roma got some great results with 100% whole wheat, but look at the photos, and you will see some pretty nice leoparding and char https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5682.40
 he was using a LBE  - which is a diy propane fired pizza oven that allows very high temps.     In my own experiments, I found that following his recipe in a regular home oven yielded an unimpressive pizza.   Once I got a Blackstone, I got much better taste and results ,  because I could cook at a higher temp.    Good luck in your pursuit of healthier pizza, I hope you have looked into both home milled, as well as wild yeast, since there is some suggestion that both of those make the final product healthier than other alternatives.

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2018, 12:01:01 AM »
I've been fooling with desem-style 100% WW breads, using Prairie Gold WWW flour from Wheat Montana, and getting excellent results. My most recent batch had 33% Bronze Chief (red WW from Wheat Montana), and it smelled *good* -- I ate half a (900g) loaf once it cooled enough to cut and taste.   :-[

I got the WWW a few weeks ago from Walmart on-line, for little more than my local wholesaler's price, but now it's not even coming up on their site.   :(

;D Just checked again, and Prairie Gold is back, $6.73 for 10# (two 5# bags). Free shipping to your local store, or direct to you if $35+ total order.


My no-fuss process (for bread, but it should work for pies too):

Starter is 50-55% hydration, kept cool (~50F) and fed every day or two--this is the "mother"
Levain is 60% hydration, fermented for 16 hours at 68F--33% of total dough flour, roughly 1/10 is from "mother"
Autolyze is 100% hydration, all the remaining dough flour (67%), held 6-8 hours at 68F
Salt is 2.2%, added *only* after the levain is *fully incorporated* with no lumps remaining, then S+F to develop gluten

For bread I like a longish bulk, gentle shaping, and a short final proof; for pizza I'd ball after a couple-three S+F, and plan on opening and baking a few hours later, as it's ~85% hydration and pretty active.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 01:16:15 AM by vtsteve »
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Offline andytiedye

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2018, 12:03:39 AM »
We use Prarie Gold ground extra fine, mixed 50:50 with KABF.  And sourdough.

Offline TMB

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2018, 08:00:37 AM »
TMB,   I have been primarily making 100% home milled wheat pizza for years.  I agree with Norm,  WWW has a milder flavor, and i prefer that, though a 20 to 35% Red whole wheat will give it an interesting taste.    My thought is that whole wheat requires a hotter oven to get a good taste .   Many have cooked a very good pie in a home oven with regular flour,  if you search through the threads here,  you will see that Villa Roma got some great results with 100% whole wheat, but look at the photos, and you will see some pretty nice leoparding and char https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5682.40
 he was using a LBE  - which is a diy propane fired pizza oven that allows very high temps.     In my own experiments, I found that following his recipe in a regular home oven yielded an unimpressive pizza.   Once I got a Blackstone, I got much better taste and results ,  because I could cook at a higher temp.    Good luck in your pursuit of healthier pizza, I hope you have looked into both home milled, as well as wild yeast, since there is some suggestion that both of those make the final product healthier than other alternatives.
Not yet but going to  :chef:  Still trying to explain to my better half why we need to grind meat to make our own sausage and burgers ;D
Live, Ride and Always thank God!
6 Big Easy's
1 Rec-Tec grill/smoker
1 Home Built pellet grill
Working on a pellet pizza oven
Grill2Go grill
Lots more but not enough room ;)

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2018, 11:13:28 AM »
Whole white wheat flour (Ultragrain) is definitely the way to go. It is also available in different "grinds" so you can have a coarseness that you typically see in whole-wheat flour while still getting the flavor advantages of the white wheat. The greatest challenge to making good whole-wheat products is in getting the dough absorption correct. I've discussed this topic and procedure a number of time in the past here if you want to research it. I've also included the topic in one of my published articles. The problem is that the bran is very slow to absorb water so if you add enough water to make a good dough by the time it's ready to use the dough is too stiff as the bran has now hydrated, to a great extent, this is where whole-wheat products have gotten a bad rap. Someone here once said whole-wheat products taste like they were made with leaves and twigs, probably a pretty apt description of products made from an under absorbed whole-wheat dough. Ultragrain isn't as bad in this respect due to the much smaller particle size for the bran so it hydrates faster and more consistently. For the most part you will be looking at dough absorption percentages around 75% when using 100% whole-wheat flour. Products made with any amount of white flour in combination with whole-wheat flour are correctly termed as being "wheat (bread, pizza crust, etc.") as opposed to "whole-wheat" which does not contain any white flour at all.
We used to get all of our whole white wheat flour from Farmer Direct Foods, Atchison, Kansas/800-372-4422.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TMB

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2018, 11:31:56 AM »
Whole white wheat flour (Ultragrain) is definitely the way to go. It is also available in different "grinds" so you can have a coarseness that you typically see in whole-wheat flour while still getting the flavor advantages of the white wheat. The greatest challenge to making good whole-wheat products is in getting the dough absorption correct. I've discussed this topic and procedure a number of time in the past here if you want to research it. I've also included the topic in one of my published articles. The problem is that the bran is very slow to absorb water so if you add enough water to make a good dough by the time it's ready to use the dough is too stiff as the bran has now hydrated, to a great extent, this is where whole-wheat products have gotten a bad rap. Someone here once said whole-wheat products taste like they were made with leaves and twigs, probably a pretty apt description of products made from an under absorbed whole-wheat dough. Ultragrain isn't as bad in this respect due to the much smaller particle size for the bran so it hydrates faster and more consistently. For the most part you will be looking at dough absorption percentages around 75% when using 100% whole-wheat flour. Products made with any amount of white flour in combination with whole-wheat flour are correctly termed as being "wheat (bread, pizza crust, etc.") as opposed to "whole-wheat" which does not contain any white flour at all.
We used to get all of our whole white wheat flour from Farmer Direct Foods, Atchison, Kansas/800-372-4422.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Thank you SIR, great info.  My quest for the Holy Grail of low carb breads and crust sure has been fun and tastey  :chef:     I have a lot more to learn, but with the things I get from folks like you and others it's a fun journey!  ;D ;D ;D ;D
Live, Ride and Always thank God!
6 Big Easy's
1 Rec-Tec grill/smoker
1 Home Built pellet grill
Working on a pellet pizza oven
Grill2Go grill
Lots more but not enough room ;)

Online Jackitup

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2018, 12:37:48 PM »
Not yet but going to  :chef:  Still trying to explain to my better half why we need to grind meat to make our own sausage and burgers ;D

Quality and ingredient control!!
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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Offline barryvabeach

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2018, 09:15:50 PM »
Tom,  I did a search for your post you were referring to, and I think this is the one
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34548.msg343713#msg343713

Basically,  I read it to say that if you use bakers percentages for your whole wheat dough, and autolyse for 60 minutes, it should work out, you can't try to judge the hydration by eye, since it takes a long time for the flour to absorb water.  Correct?   I have seen several videos suggesting you put water in a mixer and keep adding whole wheat until you see a change - such as it pulls away from the sides, and I always thought that was a poor way to make whole wheat bread. 

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2018, 09:28:09 PM »
But do remember, after the flour has had a chance to hydrate fully, you must check the viscosity and add more water if deemed necessary, then, once you don't see any appreciable change over time from the last water addition, subtract 5% from the total bakers percent of water you added and this will get you very close to where you want to be absorption wise, you may still want to make some adjustments depending upon how you're managing your dough. Also, remember that any kind of whole-wheat flour doesn't tolerate long fermentation times nearly as well as a white flour will, this is due to the cutting effect of the bran particles on the gluten structure.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2018, 01:13:26 AM »
Also, remember that any kind of whole-wheat flour doesn't tolerate long fermentation times nearly as well as a white flour will, this is due to the cutting effect of the bran particles on the gluten structure.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

And correct me if I'm wrong Tom, that's why the finer grind and/or sifting helps with exactly that!
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2018, 07:38:49 AM »
Steve...what's desem style? Id be interested in trying a new WW flour at a price that good. How does it compare taste and handling-wise to King Arthur WW ( red, not white)?

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Whole Wheat Flour crust
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2018, 11:02:21 AM »
Desem is a Dutch/Belgian low-acidity, whole-wheat sourdough. I converted a dab of my regular starter to WWW over the course of a week, keeping it around 50F. I've had people asking for 100% WW, so I figured I'd give it a shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desem
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/27999/honest-bread-100-wholewheat-desem-bread-and-some-country-bread


Wheat Montana claims to use an "all-in" steel cut milling process -- for me, it's been working *much* better than the KA WWW.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 11:07:52 AM by vtsteve »
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