Re: Matt's NY Pizzeria Visits

[hammettjr]

I've been saying for the last couple years one of the best things I can do to help to my pizza making is trying out different pizzerias.

Last night I finally went to Joe's, then made my second visit to NY Pizza Suprema.

***
Experiencing Joe's gave me insight into where Hotsawce and Scott are coming from. As I said on another thread, I believe there are many different sub-styles within NY-style, and that no one style is better, best, or the 'true' style. And Joe's was simply different than what I'm used to.

What was different was the crust. (My slice came from a pie that came out of the oven - no re-heat.) The crust had a crisp, yet was light. Maybe soft, but not in an oil-induced kind of way. I really liked the crust, both texture and flavor. And I actually ate the entire rim, which is especially surprising given I was heading to another pizzeria after.

The undercrust also had a char flavor for much of it. It was reminiscent of what I recently described from Amore. I'm not sure whether I like this or not. And I'm not surprised that someone here recently described their slice as 'burnt'.

I'm not a dough/baking expert, but if you told me this was not low hydration and was baked hot and fast, I'd believe it. I'm not going to guess bake time or temp. I'm not saying it's 4 minutes, but it sure didn't seem like 8 minutes at 500. The oodles of picutures I've seen of these slices really don't convey the crust. Mine don't really either. Though the undercrust shot is telling. I also really like the last picture I've posted. You can see the thinness and some of the texture.

Crust aside, flavorwise it was exactly what I'd expect from reading about it on the forum. It was a good foodservice tomato and mozz. But that's it. Simple and subtle is one way to describe it. But I think these slices are basically a blank canvas for the customer to make their own. You can see in the background of one of my photos that they don't provide shakers of add-ons....they provide the large plastic containers of the seasonings. They are all over the shop and there's constant motion of customers shaking pepper, oregano, garlic etc onto their slices. I didn't partake in this, I never do.

Overall, very nice crust, ratios were ok, flavor wasn't abundant though people wont generally complain and add their own seasoning.

***
NY Pizza Suprema is on the opposite end of the flavor spectrum. Not only do you get smacked in the face with Romano, but the sauce...I have no idea what they are doing with their sauce. All I can say is that with every bite I literally said "mmmm". What's amazing is that I'm really not a fan of Romano. The slice doesn't look like much (although does look better in real life than in my cell phone pics), but there's no way we'll ever see this flavor. The ratio was different compared to Joe's too. More sauce on this pie...the way I like it.

I may need to experiment with Romano again, but I would try just a bit of it to be in the background, and keep the parm in the forefront.

I tried the upside-down square as well. I forgot how much I used to like Sicilian. Sauce here is really in the forefront. I was surprised that the flavor on this was actually much more subtle compared to the regular slice. It tasted like good tomato, then some oregano and fresh basil tossed on top. You can see the romano on top too, but I couldn't taste it. They say this is a cooked sauce with onion, and I did find a piece of onion in it, but again, I thought this sauce was much simpler compared to the slice. Perhaps the slice just has way more romano on it?

Next time I'll grab a slice and a regular Sicilian.

***
Side note on Bleecker St pizza - my intent was to go to Bleecker St pizza and Joe's. I went to Bleecker first, and they didn't have any plain slices. Just a few topped pies that had been sitting around. They were very apologetic and explained that Friday night they get slammed by delivery orders, and pointed to the stack of boxes waiting to be filled. The oven was jammed and the one pizza maker was doing all he could. They said they should have a plain pie ready in 20 minutes, so I went Joe's then went back to Bleecker. But it was the same situation. The guy at the counter wanted to guess 15-20 minutes more wait, but the pizza maker said at least 30. I could tell it wasn't happening any time soon, so I decided it wasn't the night for it. I do want to get back there though, given their focus on sauce and parm.

***
Joe's pics below, NY Pizza Suprema in the next post.

[hammettjr]

Pics from NY Pizza Suprema

Edit: last pic I just found online  - recent pic of a fresh baked pie...wow

[Jon in Albany]

Nice write up. I was at a party last night and Suprema came up in conversations. I've never been but the person I was talking to loved it.

[Dangerous Salumi]

Yes, nice write up.

[quietdesperation]

Matt, great wrireup on Joe’s and suprema. My take on them is similar: If we have a guest and they want to understand nyc slices, there’s no better place to start than Joe’s. But imo, it lacks the personality of a bleecker st or suprema.

The latest bake looks great! I find Galbani oils off at that temp/bake time. I guess you didn’t have that problem?

[hammettjr]

Bleecker street is awful...

That's your opinion and not fact, correct? Just checking 

What do you find that's so objectionable?

Regarding Suprema, I didn't notice sweetness and certainly wasn't bothered by any sugar present. For my tastes they are a bit heavy on the Romano - I wouldnt want it that heavy on a weekly basis, but I find it enjoyable on occasion.

[hammettjr]

...
The latest bake looks great! I find Galbani oils off at that temp/bake time. I guess you didn’t have that problem?

It's hard to say because this was an unusual bake. It was ultra thin crust, fairly light on cheese, but heavy on sauce.

The result was a consistent orange circle, and it was hard to distinguish what was sauce vs oil. It definitely wasn't overly greasy, and no orange oil dripped. Probably because half my cheese was low fat grande.

Overall it worked in a pinch. My flavor is from the sauce and hard cheese(s) anyway, so the taste wasn't significantly compromised.

[Josh123]

Suprema > Joe's easily.

Joe's is bland. Its made well and aesthetically pleasing, but the flavor just isnt there.

[Minolta Rokkor]

That's your opinion and not fact, correct? Just checking 

What do you find that's so objectionable?

Regarding Suprema, I didn't notice sweetness and certainly wasn't bothered by any sugar present. For my tastes they are a bit heavy on the Romano - I wouldnt want it that heavy on a weekly basis, but I find it enjoyable on occasion.

I'm a Romano heavy kind of kind, heavy Romano becomes tangy and the flavor stacks. Heavy Parmesan imo just muddles.

Honestly never found Pecorino Romano enjoyable.

[jkb]

That's your opinion and not fact, correct? Just checking 

What do you find that's so objectionable?

Regarding Suprema, I didn't notice sweetness and certainly wasn't bothered by any sugar present. For my tastes they are a bit heavy on the Romano - I wouldnt want it that heavy on a weekly basis, but I find it enjoyable on occasion.

Joe's > Suprema > Bleecker

My opinion, not fact.

[quietdesperation]

Sauce is too sweet for my liking.

last time I went to suprema, I posted the sauce was too sweet. Oddly, the time before, I thought the sauce was great. so maybe there's some variation. matt, forgot to ask, I recall harry recommended the upside-down slice at suprema, seems like you liked it? I've never tried it.

IMO, ranking pizza joints is a little silly. On a given day, I may be in the mood for what Joes has to offer, another day sal and carmines. It's tough to rank well-made pizza. by way of analogy, who is the best artist?

[hammettjr]

...matt, forgot to ask, I recall harry recommended the upside-down slice at suprema, seems like you liked it? I've never tried it.

I actually recall Hotsawce recommending it. I did like it, though thought it wasnt as flavorful as the regular slice. I want to try the regular sicilian next time.

[hammettjr]

...IMO, ranking pizza joints is a little silly. On a given day, I may be in the mood for what Joes has to offer, another day sal and carmines. It's tough to rank well-made pizza. by way of analogy, who is the best artist?

I agree that labeling a pizzeria the best (or as I said a few posts ago, labeling a style the best) doesn't make much sense.

People of course can have their preferences and favorites.

What's most helpful IMO for the group on this forum is to elaborate on each pizza and what you like or dislike. When I reviewed Joe's I tried to outline what I tasted and saw, without alot of opinion.

What I find very interesting about Joe's is that we all agree that it's a simple sauce, but some find that classic, while others find it bland. There's no right or wrong here, just preferences. I personally don't generally eat pizzas with toppings, partially because I think pepperoni or other toppings messes with the subtle beauty of a great slice. But I'm not going to say its bad or wrong to order a pepperoni slice. A step further than me, someone could easily say that the pizza I make has too much oregano, sugar, and hard cheese. And that this takes away from the flavor of the tomato and mozz. But this is what I like (most of the time to QD's point).

This is why seeing a comment that simply says Pizzeria X stinks isnt helpful. It may stink for precisely the reason someone else thinks it's great.

[jkb]

Joe's is mild, but it's balanced and the flavors are good.  I don't need to be beat over the head with flavor.  I like raw vegetables and unseasoned steamed chicken breast.  Slow down and focus on what you're eating.

[hammettjr]

Joe's is mild, but it's balanced and the flavors are good.  I don't need to be beat over the head with flavor.  I like raw vegetables and unseasoned steamed chicken breast.  Slow down and focus on what you're eating.

I agree with most of this. I've learned over the last 8 years that plain brocolli has a ton of flavor that I enjoy.

And eating slowly and mindfully greatly enhances my eating experience.

But I can mindfully enjoy a well made sauce, just like I can a plain tomato 

[Josh123]

Joe's is mild, but it's balanced and the flavors are good.  I don't need to be beat over the head with flavor.  I like raw vegetables and unseasoned steamed chicken breast.  Slow down and focus on what you're eating.

Most people arent eating street pizza for subtlety, though. When I want raw and earthy flavors, I get Neapolitan margherita

[jkb]

Most people arent eating street pizza for subtlety, though. When I want raw and earthy flavors, I get Neapolitan margherita

Trust me, nobody eating one of my pies will be reaching for a shaker jar.

[hammettjr]

Trust me, nobody eating one of my pies will be reaching for a shaker jar.

And yet there was constant shaking of seasoning at Joe's when I was there. You prefer to put basil, pepper and hard cheese(s) in your pies, correct?

[hammettjr]

Tell that to all of the NYers here that consider Joe's the best.
...

This doesn't make sense.

Who are all these NYers? People tend to have a favorite in their neighborhood, particularly if they grew up there. Tell all the NYers that consider Amore the best that they are eating crap pizza that isn't real NY style...

Joe's is an as-seen-on-tv destination. So is Di Fara. Given the poplularity there will be many people that call one or the other of these the best. But one is "simpler" as you say and one is loaded with flavors. How do we reconcile the 2?

My point, which everyone seems to want to ignore, is that there is no best or true style. There are differences. Some prefer one over the other. Some like both and on any given day choose what they're in the mood for.

[HansB]

My point, which everyone seems to want to ignore, is that there is no best or true style. There are differences.