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Offline hotsawce

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More Sourdough Problems
« on: December 30, 2018, 08:05:53 PM »
Well, I've been working on a very low inoculation room temp sourdough in the style of Craig's method/Ops in Bushwick. I am doing entirely room temp fermentation, but at a much warmer temp than what Craig or some other members have done here because I don't have space for a cooling chest. Generally, around 67 to 78f. Big range, but most of the time I'm around 69-73f.

Unlike my sourdough in the past (that almost always flattened out into a pancake and was extremely sticky,) this is very elastic, almost bouncy/rubbery. That being said, it will stretch out just fine but it appears the dough in some places is a little uneven. More concerning are these runaway air bubbles on the edge of the crust that are very thin. Without question, these would pop and burn in the oven.

I'm curious if anyone can help me determine what is going on. I have a hard time thinking it could be acidity as I used an extremely small amount of starter and it wasn't very warm during fermentation. I don't think it's a yeast problem because the dough clearly proofed.

My recipe and process for this dough was as follows

Flour (100%): 320g < King Arthur 00
Water (61%): 195g < Cool to the touch
Salt (2.82%): 9g < Sea salt
Starter (0.625%): 2g <Liquid, 100% hydration and just after peak.

Process:
Dissolve salt in water. Dissolve starter in water. Mix in flour until fully hydrated. Rest 20 minutes. Hand knead until pretty smooth. Rest another 20 minutes. Form into smooth ball for bulk.

Bulk began at 3pm and ran until Noon the next day. The bulk had increased maybe 30 or 40%. Some activity, but not a lot of bubbles when balling. I balled at 12pm and stretch at 7pm (about 28 hours total fermentation - 7 hours in balls and 21 hours in bulk.)

Attached are some pictures, including one where I stretched the 210g doughball up to about 15" just to see how the dough stretched across the pizza.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 08:09:15 PM by hotsawce »

Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2018, 11:36:54 PM »
Lou,


The one thought I have based on the opened dough pic ( not the 15 inch version but the smaller size) and your note of elasticity, is that maybe the dough was a little past prime fermentation. I'm an expert in going too far with fermentation and when it's in early stages, the results can be like this...elastic and thin spots. Doc Tom has helped me understand  that being over can take many forms...and still make great pies, just not perfect. As far as the bubbles, not sure what you could do except pop them as they bake to keep them from  being too large  All above just thoughts from a guy on the amateur side of course.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2018, 12:23:53 AM »
Interesting. I'll cut my starter amount down to 0.325% for the time frame.

I don't think my starter is the issue anymore - It clearly leavens the dough. It's active. And I use such a small amount I don't think it can possibly be producing too much acid. My only other thought was maybe the gluten was overdeveloped?

I'm going to increase the water a bit, go lighter on the mix, and reduce the starter slightly and see if it helps at all.

Lou,


The one thought I have based on the opened dough pic ( not the 15 inch version but the smaller size) and your note of elasticity, is that maybe the dough was a little past prime fermentation. I'm an expert in going too far with fermentation and when it's in early stages, the results can be like this...elastic and thin spots. Doc Tom has helped me understand  that being over can take many forms...and still make great pies, just not perfect. As far as the bubbles, not sure what you could do except pop them as they bake to keep them from  being too large  All above just thoughts from a guy on the amateur side of course.

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2018, 05:27:50 AM »
Thanks Lou..hope the next batch works great for you

Offline Heikjo

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2018, 05:45:57 AM »
I agree that it looks to be on the far side of fermentation. Still usable, but based on the activity on the bottom of the container, it has fermented pretty far, making it less elastic and potentially a bit stickier.

It will always be a potential issue without temperature control during fermentation. If it changed the same way every time, it would be consistent, but if it's warmer early one time and colder early the next, you will likely experience a difference.

There is a pretty big window where the dough is usable and your dough was more towards the end. There are many photos in Craig's thread and the SD prediction thread of bottoms of containers. They can be useful guidelines. When I started out with SD I fermented them way too far. This resulted in trickier doughs to work with and a few failures, but also one of my best pies. These days I use less starter and don't let them ferment nearly as much.

You just have to experiment and find something that works. If you find a routine where the dough is around it's prime or slightly past when you plan to use it, it will still be fine should it be warmer one day.

Dough temperature also affects how it handles. A dough at room temperature will often be a bit more difficult to handle than one at 60F. Especially if you combine a dough at RT that's also fermented a bit far, you need delicate touch to avoid tearing and other issues.

Large bubbles can be popped prior to launching or dressing the skin to avoid the large bubbles that will char and burn to ashes.

Your starter certainly seems to work well. Good luck. :)

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Offline HansB

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2018, 09:23:19 AM »
This probably won't help but this was made with 5% starter, 36 hours in ball at 64F. It opened very nice. The only negative for me was that there was not a lot of oven spring on the cornicione.


Edit: After Mitch's post, this was Marino 00 BIO flour.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 11:17:03 AM by HBolte »
Hans

Offline Heikjo

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2018, 09:44:08 AM »
It must be mentioned that different cultures work differently. 5% with one might work fine, but with another you get a soupy mess that has lost structure and doesn't work very well. That why experience is the key. Specifically experience with your starter, your flour, your equipment, your oven, your hands.

As mentioned, you can make great pies with a dough that's fermented well past what might be ideal.

I've thrown away one or two doughs that just didn't work at all. They had fermented way too far and stuck to everything. Massive amounts of flour helped a bit, but the dough just fell apart and tore all the time. I could maybe have used it in a pan or on parchment paper.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 09:48:14 AM by Heikjo »

Offline norcoscia

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2018, 10:16:43 AM »
It could just be bubbles but the bottom up photo looks like it has seams and maybe not closed tightly. Hard to tell from one photo so just mentioning it as something to think about / check.
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG, Baker's Pride M02T 220V, PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline mitchjg

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2018, 11:04:05 AM »
Lou:

I would wonder if you are having trouble with the dough because of the flour.  The King Arthur 00 is extremely low in protein @8.5%.  Most references, as I recall, that I have seen here on pm.com would lead you away from this flour for pizza.  https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/italian-style-flour-3-lb

Perhaps try this again with Caputo or similar.
Mitch

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Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2018, 11:16:17 AM »
Hey Mitch!  Good to see you :)  Happy New Year!

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2018, 11:37:13 AM »
Mitch -

Itís the commercial 00 flour so itís 11% protein. Itís newer - I donít know why they are different.

Seam is closed tightly but I think not fully integrated for one of two reasons - either need more water or overdelvoped/overfermented at that point. I havenít had issues with stickiness. In the past I had issues with sticky, soupy, slack doughs. My current starter seems much healthier. I just filled the ball in flour gave it a few presses and it hand tossed to size pretty easily.

I think it was definitely on the tail end of fermentation (surprisingly.) I kept a ball out and checked around 1am - runaway thin bubbles forming on top of the dough and the bottom of the dough starting to become wet; I assume this was the dough starting to break down. It probably went too far in the bulk stage and developed too much strength over that 21 hours.

The next batch will be one gram of starter for 320g of flour. I donít think I can measure
Much less than that  :-D.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2018, 11:38:03 AM »
Hans, did you bulk this dough or go right into balls

This probably won't help but this was made with 5% starter, 36 hours in ball at 64F. It opened very nice. The only negative for me was that there was not a lot of oven spring on the cornicione.


Edit: After Mitch's post, this was Marino 00 BIO flour.

Offline HansB

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2018, 11:50:08 AM »
Straight into balls.
Hans

Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2018, 11:44:46 PM »
I'm surprised that at 36 hours and only 5% starter they didnt turn into pancake batter. Worth a try!

Straight into balls.

Offline Satyen

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2019, 05:21:16 AM »
Rgd the bubbles, a 210gm dough ball stretched to 15 inch skin, the co2 has no room left within the dough.... Maybe try increasing the thickness factor by using more dough or reducing the size of your skin.

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2019, 02:44:04 PM »
Please re-read the post more carefully - the stretch beyond the initial 10-11" to 15" was only to see the gluten development and dough distribution throughout the skin.

Rgd the bubbles, a 210gm dough ball stretched to 15 inch skin, the co2 has no room left within the dough.... Maybe try increasing the thickness factor by using more dough or reducing the size of your skin.

Offline norcoscia

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #16 on: January 01, 2019, 03:23:58 PM »
The other thing I think is worth mentioning is (as something to think about) - if I let my dough warm up to those temperatures it would be hard to open without issues (for me) and that is with me using a much higher protein content flour. Keep us posted, it is interesting but likely (like most things) a combination of factors that drove your dough condition.

I'm as guilty of this as anyone else but I see folks on the forum (not talking about this post necessarily -- it is kind of ubiquitous on the forum ) look for one bit of the dough puzzle to hang a hat on and think that is the culprit or the item that is so very important that not much else matters. I think doing that is human nature but when it comes to dough behavior it is a collection of things that control any outcome. Hydration, re-balling, temperatures, RT or CF, gluten development, gluten amount (and the list goes on and on) all need to be in proper balance with each other to achieve a desired final dough / crust profile and performance.

I'm now leaving my soapbox - everyone reading is relieved I have finished typing.

PS. (the horror, I'm still typing) I forgot to add - I think there are lots and lots and lots of ways (combinations) of process and recipes that can give someone what they are looking for -- but -- the bad news is -- there is an infinite amount of ways to get it wrong / miss your mark.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 05:21:57 PM by norcoscia »
Norm
Baker's Pride GP-61 NG, Baker's Pride M02T 220V, PizzaParty Ardore (with saputo tiles) LP
Focus is NY style but do others too
Preferred Flour (for NY pies) is All Trumps BB
Preferred temperature for NY is 550F, for NP 900+F
Preferred type of yeast IDY

Offline mitchjg

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #17 on: January 01, 2019, 09:00:10 PM »
Mitch -

Itís the commercial 00 flour so itís 11% protein. Itís newer - I donít know why they are different.

Seam is closed tightly but I think not fully integrated for one of two reasons - either need more water or overdelvoped/overfermented at that point. I havenít had issues with stickiness. In the past I had issues with sticky, soupy, slack doughs. My current starter seems much healthier. I just filled the ball in flour gave it a few presses and it hand tossed to size pretty easily.

I think it was definitely on the tail end of fermentation (surprisingly.) I kept a ball out and checked around 1am - runaway thin bubbles forming on top of the dough and the bottom of the dough starting to become wet; I assume this was the dough starting to break down. It probably went too far in the bulk stage and developed too much strength over that 21 hours.

The next batch will be one gram of starter for 320g of flour. I donít think I can measure
Much less than that  :-D.

Thanks.  I did not know that they sold it as a different commercial flour.  Having said that, I still wonder - 11% is a little on the low side (but should not be fatal). The W and all those other fancy pants numbers may be an issue.  I don't know, just isolating what seems to be the atypical aspect.  What if you tried to make an identical dough, side by side with a different, more mainstream flour?
Mitch

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Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2019, 02:30:36 PM »
You are spot on - and this is why I want to keep the process on the simple side. I took another shot with this dough.

This time
100% KA 00flour
65% water
2.8% salt
0.3125% peaked liquid starter (this is 1g for 320g of flour...)

Because of the additional flour, I was able to mix until incorporated with a fork and really didn't hand knead much beyond that. Bulked from 3pm to 11am next day. Ambient temp started around 75f but dipped to 68 or so then up and down but within that range.

This was the bulk dough when I balled - I think, already too active (again!) I have the balls sitting now and will see how they shape up in a few hours. they appeared pretty active once balled...good news is the seam of the doughball appears to have integrated well this time around. Could be from the additional water/lighter mix.

Interestingly, I watched Jeff Varasano's stretching video where he mentioned the problem I had in the previous batch. The "webbing" or "layers" of gluten he described is what I experienced, and he attributed it to overworking the dough. We will see!

If this keeps up (not sure I can use much less starter...) I may have to just try the Vero/UPN style same day dough (mix at 11ish use at 5) with 20% starter or so. I really do want to avoid the extra steps and variability, so it might even mean doing what Hans did (and what Scottie's does in portland;) More starter, no bulk at all, right to balls and proof.

Update: attached are a couple photos of the 210g doughballs stretched. They stretched easily (12" is the small, all the way up to 15" in the second photo.) Far less thin spots/webbing but still seems to be a bit over-active. I had the chance to compare it to commercially yeasted dough I've used and with that perspective have come to the conclusion I have far more runaway bubbles in different areas of the dough skin.

I would probably try 0.1% starter next and drop the hydration down to 62 or 63%.

The other thing I think is worth mentioning is (as something to think about) - if I let my dough warm up to those temperatures it would be hard to open without issues (for me) and that is with me using a much higher protein content flour. Keep us posted, it is interesting but likely (like most things) a combination of factors that drove your dough condition.

I'm as guilty of this as anyone else but I see folks on the forum (not talking about this post necessarily -- it is kind of ubiquitous on the forum ) look for one bit of the dough puzzle to hang a hat on and think that is the culprit or the item that is so very important that not much else matters. I think doing that is human nature but when it comes to dough behavior it is a collection of things that control any outcome. Hydration, re-balling, temperatures, RT or CF, gluten development, gluten amount (and the list goes on and on) all need to be in proper balance with each other to achieve a desired final dough / crust profile and performance.

I'm now leaving my soapbox - everyone reading is relieved I have finished typing.

PS. (the horror, I'm still typing) I forgot to add - I think there are lots and lots and lots of ways (combinations) of process and recipes that can give someone what they are looking for -- but -- the bad news is -- there is an infinite amount of way to get it wrong / miss your mark.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 01:25:37 AM by hotsawce »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: More Sourdough Problems
« Reply #19 on: January 10, 2019, 03:41:08 PM »
Another try. More improvements, but still not what I want.

This time,

100% KA 00 Flour
63% water
2% salt
0.2% starter

Mixed lightly, a few short kneads, then bulk from 3pm to 9:30 am next day. Balled at 9:30. Less bubbles in the bulk dough but still saw some activity. No runaway bubbles or issues when balling. The dough was ready to use at 3, no question. Still short of my ideal start time (5pm with 6h usable life.) Felt sticky coming out of containers (probably the room temp and long fermentation,) but a dip in flour and I didn't really have any issues stretching. Soft and supple - easy to press out. 230g stretched to 12" easily, and I kept going to 14". Saw some thin spots (possible gluten degradation?) but none of those webbed layers like the previous pizzas. Ambient room temp started at 71 but I'm sure hit 78 or more during the evening.

I'm on the fence. I think I need to go lower on starter for this method but not sure I can. I think the warmer room temp complicates things a bit, and the long fermentation may just give me a stickier dough to work with. I think I need to figure out how to do it morning of with a shorter ferment....

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