A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway  (Read 9243 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« on: January 21, 2019, 05:12:40 AM »
I can finally make Neapolitan pizza after getting the Effeuno P134H oven from Italy via the Norwegian distributor:D :pizza:

Up to this point Iíve made my own take on NY style with SD in a home oven with stone and 300C. I aim to bake pies in 60-90 seconds in the new oven. The pies of Craig, Sauzer, Antilife, Arne, Icelandr, Schold, Amolapizza and so many more are great inspirations and what Iím aiming at. I especially try to learn from those making neapolitans with sourdough. Of course this entire forum is extremely helpful and I have to mention Tom and Peter for all their contributions and knowledge. More often than not I get help from them by finding old topics about what I'm seeking answers for. I would also like to mention the Italian forum La Confraternita della Pizza which has a lot of good info on the P134H oven and how to use it. Thanks to Google Translate Iím able to learn from and discuss with the Italian expertise too. Iíve been to Naples and ate at the famed pizzerias there, which was what really sparked my interest in neapolitans.

The Oven:
Effeuno P134H countertop oven, late 2018 model. 2x450C thermostats. Triple glass door. 1900W upper element, 900W lower element. 3cm clay stone (biscotto). I think it's a great oven for Norway, where we got long winters and low temperatures. With this oven it's no problem making pizza all year around.

The Equipment:
Wine cooler set at 15C for fermentation. Wooden launch peel from American Metalcraft. Aluminium peel from American Metalcraft.

The Dough:
Flour: 100% (currently Caputo Pizzeria, but will experiment)
Water: 62-65%
Starter: 2-10%
Salt: 2.5-3%

The Dough Process:
I use the Preferment Calculator for the recipe. At some time prior to making the dough, I feed the starter (typically 4-16 hours). First thing I do when making the dough is adding water to the bowl. I add salt and swirl to dissolve, then add starter and swirl with a spatula to dissolve. The starter has typically doubled or tripled at this point. Next I add flour and mix everything. At this stage the dough is a bit sticky, so I let it rest covered for 10 minutes. Then I knead and fold the dough a bit and if it looks fine, set away to ferment. If itís still a bit sticky and rough, I might leave it 10 minutes more. Then itís off to fermentation either in bulk or balls. I usually do 48-hour or 24-hour doughs. With 12 hours in balls or re-balled. The first 12-36 hours on plastic or glass and the last 12 the dough sits on wood to dry out the bottom so I can use less or no bench flour.

I sometimes use a pluviometer to determine the fermentation status of the dough. The dough is increased with an additional 80g and I put the 80g ball into the pluviometer. Initially itís at ca. 16 mm/m≤ and it seems to be ideal around 25-30. I find it a bit difficult to gauge a dough just from looks, so itís a useful tool. Itís also a nice way to somewhat compare the fermentation of my dough with other people on the internet. I mainly use it when I change flour, recipe, temperatures etc. Once Iíve found a consistent method, I donít need to use it very often. When I first started with sourdough and RT, my tendency was to let them ferment too far and become difficult to work with, so it has been great help.

The Oven Management:
I let the oven heat up 45-60 minutes before baking. I donít have much experience yet and will never master the oven, but I will always try to get a little bit better each time. Based on other owners of this oven, I will probably turn the one or both thermostats down some time before dressing and turn up again a few minutes before launch to get the elements going.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2019, 05:14:55 AM »
The First Pies:
I made two 12Ē pies the first day and Iím mostly happy I didnít make a mess in the oven. The dough was 100% Caputo Pizzeria (311g), 62% water (185g), 10% starter (40g) and 2.5% salt (8.3g). They fermented ca. 24 hours, first 12h in 15C and then I took them out to RT, which was around 22C/72F. If anything, they were maybe fermented a bit on the far side, but not too bad. I had one sitting on wood the entire time and one on wood for 12 hours then 12 hours on plastic so I could monitor the bottom of the dough. The one sitting on wood was very nice to work with and needed hardly any bench flour, but Iíll do 12 plastic + 12 wood next time and use a pluviometer. The second needed a bit more flour since it was stickier. The top was sticky on both, which I worried would be a problem when I opened the dough if the sticky parts were pulled to the edges and caught the bench or peel. Iíll see what I can do with the top stickiness, maybe ferment in entirely wooden boxes the last 12 hours. The doughs opened pretty well with a reasonable amount of resistance. Iím still a rookie a opening doughs into skins, but slowly improving.

After 60 minutes heating I turned the upper element down to 400C before I started opening the dough. Before dressing I left the door open 30 seconds and turned the thermostat up to 450C two minutes before launch. I didnít touch the lower thermostat, but I might try lowering it next time, or turning it off some time before launch. The bottom didnít have a very charred taste, but did blacken more than I wanted.

One margherita and one white with fennel salami. The first I launched too close to the door and ended up undercooked at one side. I didnít think about turning it until later. The second was launched farther in, but still cooked faster at the inner most part. I might want to turn the pies during bake. Much experimentation to come.

The Results:
Iím reasonably happy with the pies. They were unevenly baked, but tasted OK. The white one was a bit on the heavy side for my taste with the creme fraiche and salami. Iím a much bigger fan of acidity and bright tastes, but my girlfriend prefer the fattier and richer stuff. This was my first time with the Caputo flour, but it behaved pretty similarly to the flour Iíve been using before.

Day Two:
Planned to make a single marinara and all wen well until it snagged on the middle of the pie during launch and the disaster happened. Ended up with a somewhat edible half-assed calzone and lots of topping left in the oven. I've just turned on the heating again to pyrolyse it...  :( This still remains my biggest problem when making pizza. Most likely to do with dough management, handling or launching, but I'll also get some sand paper and sand the peel better. I used some 600 grit, but it's still got a somewhat rough surface in my opinion. I might go up to 1500. The sticky dough is something to address, and opening of the dough. It doesn't tear, but get's really thin in the middle and I don't think it takes a lot of resistance when topping is added. Don't know if I'm stretching it too thing and leaving too much on the cornicone or if it's just poor technique and a rough peel.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 08:11:46 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline sk

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 715
  • Location: Marietta, GA
  • Belle Pizze!
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #2 on: January 21, 2019, 09:15:08 AM »
Heikjo:  So glad to hear you are making NP pizzas now!  Your inspirational pizza makers are the same as mine.  So much to learn from them.  Thank you for the details on the dough.  I often end up with dough that looks and acts much like yours. 

Regarding the dough on wood.  Can you explain that a bit more.  What sort of wood.  Is it simpy like a small board.  How do you cover the top or keep it from drying out?

I am also interested in how you overcome the dough getting so thin in the middle.  I'm sure for me it's more technique than dough formula but I will be interested in your adventures.

Curious why you think the dough was a bit overfermented but opened with a reasonable amount of resistance.  Being a rookie, I am not totally sure how to judge over or under fermentation. 

I'm excited to follow your posts!
Pizza Party 70x70 WFO/Saupto Floor

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #3 on: January 21, 2019, 09:32:19 AM »
Heikjo:  So glad to hear you are making NP pizzas now!  Your inspirational pizza makers are the same as mine.  So much to learn from them.  Thank you for the details on the dough.  I often end up with dough that looks and acts much like yours. 

Regarding the dough on wood.  Can you explain that a bit more.  What sort of wood.  Is it simpy like a small board.  How do you cover the top or keep it from drying out?

I am also interested in how you overcome the dough getting so thin in the middle.  I'm sure for me it's more technique than dough formula but I will be interested in your adventures.

Curious why you think the dough was a bit overfermented but opened with a reasonable amount of resistance.  Being a rookie, I am not totally sure how to judge over or under fermentation. 

I'm excited to follow your posts!
Thank you. :)

I'm using pine since that is what I got hold off for now. It's just a small piece of 1cm thick wooden board that I put the dough on and then cover with a plastic or glass bowl. At some point I'll look for plastic boxes that fits perfectly in my wine cooler and I can use for both stages. First with the dough just in the box, then when 12 hours are left I remove the dough, re-ball it, put in a wooden board, put the dough on it, close the box and put it in the cooler again. I never have problems with the top drying out but rather it being too sticky. I wonder if a box made completely of wood would help dry it out a little compared to a wooden board inside a plastic box.

Regarding the dough, there are a lot of variables and possible outcomes. The last dough today had reached 30 in my pluviometer, and I think they work a bit better around 25. It had only been sitting on wood for 6 or so hours after re-balling, but the timing there depends on a lot of things. There is a pretty large window where a dough is fine to use, but to avoid disasters I want to aim at the ideal point as often as possible. Judging fermentation is very difficult, which is why I like the pluviometer. It gives me a goo reference point. There is still the intricacities of the sourdough starter, how it was fed, when it was fed etc. which also plays a part and one that you can't measure in volume. The acidity of the sourdough affects the handling of the dough.

I'm fairly sure that how I open the dough is a big part of it, but it's difficult to know how to do it right and how the dough should feel. My way of thinking is that the closer I get to ideal, the less likely disasters are to happen. And above all else I do not want the first pie of the evening to stick to the peel and create a mess that renders the oven unusable for many hours when I got guests and 10 doughs ready and waiting. So I want to attack the problems from all angles I can think of.

I did a bit of sanding on the peel today and I can get it a lot better. I starter with 600, but switched to 240 just to get down to the deepest crevices. I think 240->400->600 and some wet 600 in the end could be good. Unfortunately I don't have a machine to do it, so I'm currently relying on manual labor.

I think I need to find or buy a wooden brush so I can sweep out the charred remains before next time. ;)
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1643
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2019, 06:24:21 PM »
Hello Heikjo,

You must be more than happy to finally get your oven  :chef:

I would say that you want to wait till your dough ball seems very puffy before baking (let's say after a proofing period). It seems to me that you didn't have a great spring oven because of that, as if your dough was a little under-fermented!

Thank you for sharing anyway!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2019, 06:42:35 PM by Yael »
ďLearn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artistĒ - Pablo Picasso

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2019, 03:47:10 AM »
I would say that you want to wait till your dough ball seems very puffy before baking (let's say after a proofing period). It seems to me that you didn't have a great spring oven because of that, as if your dough was a little under-fermented!
They might have been, I didn't have too much control over the first two doughs and they wasn't treated ideally. The last one (without photo) seemed to puff better on the parts that didn't become entangled with the rest. One of my best pies ever were made with a dough that was well past what I would call ideal fermentation, at least from a handling perspective. They certainly don't get worse by sitting a bit longer. I've seen some photos of doughs cut open towards the end of fermentation with lots of holes and activity, then you got some that are just a flat disc with no significant amount of air bubbles. It might even be wrong calling something under- and over-fermented when it's still within the large window of useability. I definitely want those well-fermented doughs, but I'm also a bit hesistant because of the snagging risks during launch. Which is why I still use some bench flour and cornmeal on the peel. I hope one day to reach Craig's levels of flour amount, but it won't happen overnight.

I think the starter is working fine, it seems to do so in the starter jar. My bread doughs aren't as puffy these days either, but that could be more because of the lower winter temperature.

I just got back from work and Christmas holidays and these were my first pies since too long, so it takes a bit to get back into it. We're refurbishing a room this week, so I won't be making pizza every day, but I'll try to squeeze in as many as I can. Experience and more pizza is what I need.

I love that the oven practically cleans itself with the high temperatures. I had sauce and topping spread out on the stone, let the oven run a while longer and just brushed it out later.

Here's a macro photo of my wood peel. First showing how it looked at delivery and then after sanding with 240 grit for a bit. I might have to do more 240 to get down into it and then gradually increase grit.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 04:26:28 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Hanglow

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 732
  • Location: Scotland
  • The next one will be better
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2019, 04:30:31 AM »
That picture makes me want to sand my peels, they are rather rough at the moment :D. I've been using remilled semolina flour, it's very forgiving and falls off the dough better than 00 wheat flour when shaping and launching.

 I'll be interested in following your progress, I've just recently done some more sourdough pizzas for the first time in quite a while and want to do more of them

Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1643
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2019, 04:32:32 AM »
[...]It might even be wrong calling something under- and over-fermented when it's still within the large window of useability.
[...]

I get your meaning, and maybe I didn't find the best words to describe what I meant, but Italian pizzaioli usually really want to use the dough during its last moment of life, when it starts to bubble.

I don't know how Craig peel the pizza, I also heard he doesn't use a lot of dusting flour (if none at all), of course this is the best. It will come soon ;)
ďLearn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artistĒ - Pablo Picasso

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2019, 05:09:19 AM »
That picture makes me want to sand my peels, they are rather rough at the moment :D. I've been using remilled semolina flour, it's very forgiving and falls off the dough better than 00 wheat flour when shaping and launching.

I'll be interested in following your progress, I've just recently done some more sourdough pizzas for the first time in quite a while and want to do more of them
This peel was pretty rough when I got it, but it was also pretty cheap so I suppose I couldn't expect it to be too smooth. I don't plan to treat it in any way. I read a post by BrickStoneOven mentioning he had a treated peel that he wasn't too happy with, but which worked a lot better after sanding with 1500.

I get your meaning, and maybe I didn't find the best words to describe what I meant, but Italian pizzaioli usually really want to use the dough during its last moment of life, when it starts to bubble.
I understand and I agree. The well-fermented doughs has always been my favourites in flavour and texture. Hopefully when I get everything else in the process working better, I can get away with those kind of doughs. Pizzadaheim's photos of his doughs has always intrigued me: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53437.msg554866#msg554866

I don't know how Craig peel the pizza, I also heard he doesn't use a lot of dusting flour (if none at all), of course this is the best. It will come soon ;)
Yeah, the only reason I want to use less bench flour is to avoid the taste from the flour in the pizza.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2019, 04:05:59 PM »
I get your meaning, and maybe I didn't find the best words to describe what I meant, but Italian pizzaioli usually really want to use the dough during its last moment of life, when it starts to bubble.
I was thinking a bit more about this today and after looking at pizzadaheim's video of opening a ball, I've thought that maybe my doughs has had too much resistance and needed too much force to open. What I usually do is press down the dough, press out a cornicone and then try to expand the dics, but I often think that the cornicone ends up with too much dough and the more I work it, the thinner the middle gets, while the cornicone doesn't yield as easily. Then when I finish with lifting the skin on my knuckles, the center is stretched even thinner. A dough that's well fermented and bubbly and has been balled 12 hours before is loose and easy to work with. There is at the same time maybe more of a risk of stretching the dough too far, but if I can manage the dough hydration, avoid stickiness and be gentle when opening, the well-fermented dough might better let itself open to a skin than one less-fermented a more taut.

I got two doughs in bulk in the cooler now. I plan to make them tomorrow evening if all goes well. Maybe take them out to a higher temperature after 12 hours to get a more fermented dough.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1643
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2019, 09:41:31 PM »
Look this extract (enclosed pic) from Accademia Pizzaioli pizza class, of which I am... let's say "sous-instructor" and translator of the Italian chef here in China, you see where he drew the arrow (green). It's right before the dough bursts. Actually I didn't know either it was that late in the fermentation, I didn't dare to wait too much because there's the risk of passing the point of no return... but I've been making it afterwards and the result makes quite a difference.

If your dough has too much resistance, you can indeed try a sooner balling, a higher hydration, or a shorter kneading.
How long before baking do you make balls?
ďLearn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artistĒ - Pablo Picasso

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2019, 05:34:10 AM »
Look this extract (enclosed pic) from Accademia Pizzaioli pizza class, of which I am... let's say "sous-instructor" and translator of the Italian chef here in China, you see where he drew the arrow (green). It's right before the dough bursts. Actually I didn't know either it was that late in the fermentation, I didn't dare to wait too much because there's the risk of passing the point of no return... but I've been making it afterwards and the result makes quite a difference.

If your dough has too much resistance, you can indeed try a sooner balling, a higher hydration, or a shorter kneading.
How long before baking do you make balls?
I like that drawing, thank you. ;) I'm probably well on the left side of the green arrow. By the dough bursting, does it mean the point where it has reached a limit in volume and past that point will start to lose volume and deflate? I've had some bread doughs get there, but not sure about pizza. I have had some doughs that were really far and airy, but they were only in plastic containers, ended up pretty sticky and easy to tear. I've also been afraid of launch failures when using dough that's fermented close to the point of no return.

Maybe I should try making a dough, putting a webcam in front of it and let it record from start to finish to see what happens. Maybe put a pluviometer next to it for some future reference.

I just got the oven, so I've only done 24 hour doughs so far, where I ball after 12 hours and place the balls on wood (still in plastic containers). Once I get things going, I'll go back to my usual method, wihch is 36 hours bulk + 12 hours in balls (or re-balled) on wood. The balls I used on my first few attempts did not fit this schedule and had less time in balls. It's been a bit busy the last days, so I haven't had the time to really focus on it. Switching to a new flour also takes some time getting used to the fermentation progress. I'll make two doughs tonight that I plan to ferment for 48 hours.

I've not really been kneading the dough much with the method I use now. I just mix it, let it sit 10 minutes, then do a small bit of kneading, maybe 10 more minutes rest, a minute of kneading then to bulk fermentation.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 05:41:35 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1643
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2019, 06:43:35 AM »
All the problems you are talking about I also experience them, I think you don't have so many troubles actually. It's more about adjustments. It needs a few batches to get the best of your dough, so at home, because I assume you don't eat pizza every day  ;D, it takes a little bit longer to get there - same for me, I don't run restaurants anymore, so when I make tests sometimes they don't give me the best results at first.

Pictures or video would help indeed, maybe there's nothing wrong  ::)

12H seem a little bit long to me... This is a topic that I often see in the forum, but I don't recall having read "the right time" about it, just I can only say about my own experience...
ďLearn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artistĒ - Pablo Picasso

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2019, 07:09:40 AM »
All the problems you are talking about I also experience them, I think you don't have so many troubles actually. It's more about adjustments. It needs a few batches to get the best of your dough, so at home, because I assume you don't eat pizza every day  ;D, it takes a little bit longer to get there - same for me, I don't run restaurants anymore, so when I make tests sometimes they don't give me the best results at first.

Pictures or video would help indeed, maybe there's nothing wrong  ::)

12H seem a little bit long to me... This is a topic that I often see in the forum, but I don't recall having read "the right time" about it, just I can only say about my own experience...
I will probably make more pizza than is good for me now that I got the new oven.  :D

I just have to keep working on it and making notes on what I did and what the result was. I will post some photos and videos later. I don't think there is a solution that works for everyone, so I just have to experiment try to improve it. Especially when working with sourdough you have to find what works for you. I see most use 4-12 hours in balls, but there are so many other parameters that can affect how the dough ends up. Like how far it's fermented, like in the drawing you posted. Someone using the dough at an earlier stage in the fermentation might want a longer time in balls since the dough is more taut at that stage. Someone using the dough closer to the green arrow might not want more than 4-6 hours since the dough is already pretty soft and extends easily.

A photo a took of my starter yesterday. Not sure if it had peaked here, but not too far off at least.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 07:11:46 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27429
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2019, 07:33:41 AM »
I don't know how Craig peel the pizza, I also heard he doesn't use a lot of dusting flour (if none at all), of course this is the best. It will come soon ;)

Wood dough boxes.

It makes a difference. The other day, I made a couple pies and rather than the wood boxes, I used plastic bags because I wanted to do a CF experiment. The first thing my son said was 'there is a lot of flour on the bottom.'  :-D   
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27429
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2019, 07:38:30 AM »
This peel was pretty rough when I got it, but it was also pretty cheap so I suppose I couldn't expect it to be too smooth. I don't plan to treat it in any way. I read a post by BrickStoneOven mentioning he had a treated peel that he wasn't too happy with, but which worked a lot better after sanding with 1500.

I would have thought smoother was better, but I'm really not sure how much difference it makes. I use a couple different wood peels from time to time and none of them are particularly smooth, and they may actually be a bit easier to launch from than aluminum other than that they weight more. A while back I was at a pizzeria and I noted that the peels looked kind of like the surface of the moon. I would have thought it would have been a nightmare to work with them but the pies floated right off into the oven. I think I remember from back in physics class that making surfaces exceptionally smooth can actually increase the friction between them.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2019, 07:41:09 AM »
Wood dough boxes.

It makes a difference. The other day, I made a couple pies and rather than the wood boxes, I used plastic bags because I wanted to do a CF experiment. The first thing my son said was 'there is a lot of flour on the bottom.'  :-D   
Does it make a difference if the entire box is wood compared to just the bottom in a plastic box? My doughs are often sticky on the top when I ferment on a wooden board in a plastic container. Would it help if the entire box was in wood so the moisture in the box isn't sealed in there as plastic does? It would be for the phase in balls, last 8-12 hours. I often need to add some flour to the surface when opening, and don't really want that. There is a lot of small drops of water on the inside of the plastic containers and I imagine that might be less of an issue in a box made entirely of wood.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 27429
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2019, 07:43:50 AM »
I hadn't thought about it like that, but it probably does make a difference not just from the fact that the wood might absorb some moisture from the air but maybe more so in that the boxes don't seal up as tight as typical plastic boxes - at least mine don't.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 869
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2019, 08:13:55 AM »
I would have thought smoother was better, but I'm really not sure how much difference it makes. I use a couple different wood peels from time to time and none of them are particularly smooth, and they may actually be a bit easier to launch from than aluminum other than that they weight more. A while back I was at a pizzeria and I noted that the peels looked kind of like the surface of the moon. I would have thought it would have been a nightmare to work with them but the pies floated right off into the oven. I think I remember from back in physics class that making surfaces exceptionally smooth can actually increase the friction between them.
I can see that being true. One probably has to study the surfaces with a microscope to see what happens. Total friction is the result of all points of contact between dough and surface. Neither will ever be a perfect surface, so they got the hills and valleys. Ideally, I'd think the surfaces needs to be smooth enough that the pies doesn't snag on the wood, but not very much past that point, since an even finer surface may make more points of the dough touch the wood.

I tried to demonstrate with a drawing and how I imagine a smoother surface can increase the points of contact. I don't know if it's true or if the structure of the dough and wood works like that or at what point you possibly might experience more friction. And all said, you probably don't have to go too smooth before the gain in going even smoother becomes very small. If you have a nice and smooth surface and still struggle, it's probably got more to do with the dough and handling than the peel. The reason I want to optimize the peel is allowing me to ferment doughs further and use a higher hydration for better pizzas.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline vtsteve

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1928
  • Location: Vermont, USA
  • If my pizza is wrong, I don't want to be right!
Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2019, 10:02:51 AM »
I usually burnish a new wooden peel with a piece of corrugated cardboard; it smoothes out the surface fuzz without taking off any material, and leaves some of the macro-scale roughness.
In grams we trust.
My wood-fired NY thread: Pizza Thursday

A D V E R T I S E M E N T