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Author Topic: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?  (Read 655 times)

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Offline JG8505

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In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« on: February 07, 2019, 10:54:25 PM »
Hello everyone,

I'm quite new to pizza making and as the title suggests I live in Canada and need help purchasing the right ingredients.

I live in a small town in British Columbia but I do have access to italian flours like tipo 00 pizza flour as well as semola di grano duro flour. I've used bread flour as well with ok results.

I'm just wondering if I really do need to use italian flour for long cold ferment or can I get by with bread flour or AP flour? or maybe some kind of mix?
What do you all recommend?
I really like making the roman style pizza's in teglia because I have the right equipment for it (the 40x30 blue iron pans).
Also, what sugar percentage should I use for a 72 hour + ferment at 4 degrees celsius?

Thanks!

Offline Rolls

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2019, 06:42:52 AM »
For Roman style teglia, a supermarket AP or bread flour should be fine. I often use a regular AP flour from Five Roses which will easily hold up to a long cold ferment. I wouldn't go out of my way to use Italian flours, especially since they're more expensive, but there's no harm in experimenting if you must. If using sugar in your dough, I would limit this to 1-2% based on the flour weight of the recipe.


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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2019, 08:30:34 PM »
I think for canadian grocery store flour your best bet is rogers bread flour which is about 13.6% gluten/ protein give or take plus it's unbleached. Robin hoods bread flour is also good but I don't believe it is unbleached.
Our all purpose flour(robin hood or rogers) is also good as it is higher protein than american flour, about 12-13% protein depending on batch. I have seen save on sell some italian style flour if you have one in your neighborhood.
I like rogers as they tend to be on the higher quality side with fewer additives.

I'm still new to all this so maybe more expierienced canadians can chime in and validate or refute some of my claims.

Offline Fat_Tony

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 01:27:24 PM »
Hey bahd! (Canadian for Hello Friend)

Loblaws sells a 00 flour. I haven't tried it yet but it's a black bag with green text if you're feeling 'saucey' and want to experiment with that type of flour. Although for the type of pizza you're into, IMO you're better off with AP or bread flour. I would experiment with both and try mixing them, write down your results and have fun with it  ;D

Offline canugghead

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 08:13:01 PM »
If you are in or near Toronto, give this a try, it doesn't say 00 but works well for me. I can't tell the difference between this and the small expensive black bag 00 sold at Loblaws.  Less than 15 loonies for the 20kg bag if purchased in store (non delivered).
https://www.costcobusinesscentre.ca/Primo-Mulina-Neapolitan-Style-Pizza-Flour%2c-20-kg.product.100299011.html

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Offline Fat_Tony

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2019, 01:44:38 PM »
If you are in or near Toronto, give this a try, it doesn't say 00 but works well for me. I can't tell the difference between this and the small expensive black bag 00 sold at Loblaws.  Less than 15 loonies for the 20kg bag if purchased in store (non delivered).
https://www.costcobusinesscentre.ca/Primo-Mulina-Neapolitan-Style-Pizza-Flour%2c-20-kg.product.100299011.html

Sweet! I didn't know costco sold this type of flour. I'll make a mental note for when I'm making doughs for WFO's! Cheers!

Offline canugghead

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2019, 06:39:29 PM »
Sweet! I didn't know costco sold this type of flour. I'll make a mental note for when I'm making doughs for WFO's! Cheers!
Please note this is sold at Costco Business Centre only. I have not seen it at any regular Costco.  CBC caters to restaurants and closes early at 6 pm I think, but you can use regular membership. No instore butcher nor bakery, no food sampling.

Offline JG8505

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2019, 09:03:47 PM »
Thank for all the replies.
I've seen the Presidents Choice 00 flour for pizza but I thought that might not be a good choice for a long cold ferment. I was under the impression that a higher protein percentage was need for 24 plus hours in the fridge, something north of 13%??
I could give it a try. Maybe mix it with some Bread flour?
Also I've noticed that a lot of pizza in teglia recipes ask for fresh cake yeast. Where do I get that? I only have access to Active and Instant dry yeast. If I were to use ADY or IDY, at what percentages should I use them?

Offline mishanctrl

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 06:08:27 AM »
I think for canadian grocery store flour your best bet is rogers bread flour which is about 13.6% gluten/ protein give or take plus it's unbleached..

I was looking at the Rogers flour. It doesnít looks like the bread flour is unbleached. I am debating which of their flours might be suitable for my dough. Both their unbleached all purpose and their bread flour show 13g protein/100 g but their bread flour is advertised as a mix of hard flour and gluten flour so it confuses me that both are showing 13g protein as listed on their website here:
https://www.rogersfoods.com/products/?fwp_products_cat=flour

Iíve been using Robin Hood bread flour and Bulk Barn hard flour (which comes from Grain Process Enterprises). Iíve been preferring the Bulk Barn even though it is only 12g/100 bs the Robin Hood (shown as 4g/30g)

Thinking of trying the Rogers but confused on how both their AP and Bread show same protein amount on package and why they just used gluten flour to supposedly bump up gluten even thought protein on package remains the same
 

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 10:55:04 AM »
The rogers bread flour is indeed unbleached it just doesnt say so on front of the packaging. If you look at the ingredients and description on the back and side of their bags you will see.
I am not sure why their nutrition label doesnt indicate a higher protein but according tthem its 13-13.6% gluten.

Unless you can go to a restaurant supply or know someone who can it's very difficult to find hi gluten flour in the 14% range. Alternatively,  what a lot of american members here do is buy vital wheat gluten and add it to their bread flour to bump up the gluten content.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:59:09 AM by DreamingOfPizza »

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Offline mishanctrl

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 11:15:22 AM »
The rogers bread flour is indeed unbleached it just doesnt say so on front of the packaging. If you look at the ingredients and description on the back and side of their bags you will see.
I am not sure why their nutrition label doesnt indicate a higher protein but according tthem its 13-13.6% gluten.
Thanks for this info. Might try out their bread flour. I wonder what percentage gluten flour they add to it since I know Dough Doctor recommends increasing water by 1.75-2x the weight of added VWG.  I have tried experimenting with VWG with both the Bulk Barn and the Robin Hood bread flours (72% protein from Bulk Barn to hit the ~14% range and I havenít decided yet one way or the other if I prefer it or not


Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 12:22:41 PM »
I am sure if you emailed them they would happily tell you along with any other questions. I wish manufacturers here would just put this info on their packaging

Offline mishanctrl

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 12:32:31 PM »
I actually had emailed them this morning already! Iíll post with any reply I get

Offline mishanctrl

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 05:48:17 PM »
Here is what I heard back from Rogers:

The percentages used in nutritional tables are approximates. They vary a bit with each load of grain but we cannot change the wording on the bag each time there is a variance. Our bread flour has a protein level between 13-14% and our all purpose flours, both no additive and bleached are between 11-13% protein.
The white bread flour is unbleached.

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 11:35:16 PM »
Here is what I heard back from Rogers:

The percentages used in nutritional tables are approximates. They vary a bit with each load of grain but we cannot change the wording on the bag each time there is a variance. Our bread flour has a protein level between 13-14% and our all purpose flours, both no additive and bleached are between 11-13% protein.
The white bread flour is unbleached.
Thanks for delivering on that info
I am happy to hear that their bread flour can range in the 14%spectrum. I was going to start working on a lehmanns ny style recipe for my next pie, so I think the rogers bread flour will be a good candidate as a high gluten flour.
I wonder what Robin Hoods best for bread protein is? I will have to contact them one day. Although, have been happy with rogers for the time being.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2019, 10:17:04 AM »
I wonder what Robin Hoods best for bread protein is? I will have to contact them one day. Although, have been happy with rogers for the time being.

DreamingOfPizza,

According to this post, the protein content of the Robin Hood Best for Bread flour apparently is 13%

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13365.msg132309.html#msg132309

However, you might also want to check the several Canadian flour sources in the document I created at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012

In particular, and to get a better feel for the protein content of Canadian flours, you may want to take a look at the Ardent Mills Bakery Canadian foodservice/commercial flour document for Robin Hood, at:

https://ardentmills.ca/

See, also, the Robin Hood Canada retail entry in the abovementioned listing of flour sources.

BTW, a flour with a protein content of around 13% should work well for a NY style pizza.

Peter




Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2019, 04:09:22 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

According to this post, the protein content of the Robin Hood Best for Bread flour apparently is 13%

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13365.msg132309.html#msg132309

However, you might also want to check the several Canadian flour sources in the document I created at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012

In particular, and to get a better feel for the protein content of Canadian flours, you may want to take a look at the Ardent Mills Bakery Canadian foodservice/commercial flour document for Robin Hood, at:

https://ardentmills.ca/

See, also, the Robin Hood Canada retail entry in the abovementioned listing of flour sources.

BTW, a flour with a protein content of around 13% should work well for a NY style pizza.

Peter

Peter,
Thank you for the flour resource link. My dad delivers pizza for a Greek restaurant, so I asked him if he could talk to the owners on my behalf to see if they can order in some Saskania Hi Gluten flour for. I figured it was worth a shot.
3 days later, the flour arrives... a 20kg (50 lb) bag of the hi gluten at a whopping $19.00 Canadian. Considering 5 lbs of bread flour at the grocery store runs about 6 bucks canadian that is one DAMN good deal. I have double freezer bagged most of it and then double garbage bagged it and threw it in my deep freeze for storage. Any ideas what the ideal freezing temp is for flour? If it even matters at all.

FYI, after getting the flour I chose your variation of a lehmann recipe to try out. The one where you tried an autolyse (I did 7 or 8 minute wait instead of 10) with a food processor and I beleive some other hi gluten flour brand that you didnt usually use. The only bit I strayed from was refridgerating for 1 hour and then placing in a bread bag, instead I just went right for the bread bag into the fridge for the next day and the day after. Also, I mistakenly dusted it lightly with flour instead of doing a light coating of olive oil before putting in bag.  I also had to adjust the recipe to 12" pies to accomodate my stupid little 13.5 inch pizza stone. My final dough temp was in the high mid to high 70's if that matters, I know you were around low 80's.
Since my fridge and climate is much colder too, I thought I might leave it in the fridge a bit longer.

anyways, thanks for making my life much simpler with the lehmann food processor write up, it worked beautifully and the dough came out GORGEOUS. Although my black and decker food processor started to smell like burned rubber near the end there, poor thing...
Time for a new one anyways... one with plastic blades perhaps.

Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2019, 04:26:24 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

I don't think that the freezing temperature is a major issue. However, trying to freeze the contents of a 50-pound bag of flour at one time, even if broken down into small bags, can take some time. Tom Lehmann has written on this subject many times, so if you do a forum search you will learn a lot about freezing flour. Here is one example:

Reply 9 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35785.msg493685;topicseen#msg493685.

Peter

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2019, 06:36:14 PM »
Thanks, I did just read that. I only bagged up a little more than half of the flour in smaller bags and put it in the freezer, the other half is in my pantry for immediate usage. I also intend on giving some of it away. I have no idea how long this will last me. :o :pizza:
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 06:38:14 PM by DreamingOfPizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: In Canada, which flour for long cold ferment?
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2019, 09:58:42 AM »
DreamingOfPizza,

FYI Tom Lehmann opined again on the matter of freezing flour in this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56387.msg567032#msg567032

Peter


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