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Author Topic: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys  (Read 608 times)

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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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So I went ahead and made Bubba Kuhns hand mixed dough recipe for NY Style Pizza with a little over 24 hour cold ferment. I followed the recipe exactly and the dough came out fantastic and so manageable. I really enjoyed the flavor of the dough, it was much better than my past few attempts at other recipes but the only thing bothering me was the texture of the dough, it was dense, both the crust and the body of the pizza and one of the pies was a little thicker than I would have liked. not a lot of those nice air pockets you see here. Also I baked it for about 10 minutes and the dough could have been a BIT more cooked on the inside, I think. I wonder where I went wrong?
Should I have fermented a little longer to 48 hours?or maybe should I have used less dough or stretched the dough out even more to thin it out? Or maybe I didn't knead the dough long enough? I am fairly new and just learned about thickness factors, I am suspecting that's where I might have gone wrong or maybe its a combination of things I did wrong.

I was baking on a pizza stone close second row from bottom of oven at 500 if that helps.

Please let me know if I can offer any more info.

Just want to thank everyone here, I have done a lot of reading the past few weeks and I feel lucky to find places like this that have people so willing to share knowledge. Just watching Bubbas videos, he is a great teacher... his dough mixing and shaping techniques are easy to follow and pick up. A lot of pizza making wisdom, not sure if he is still active here, and Pete-zza's massive contributions to this place is so invaluable, I am really grateful to have all of this info available. Still so much to learn and excited to finally get it right.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2019, 08:19:57 PM by DreamingOfPizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2019, 10:34:11 AM »
DreamingOfPizza,

Bubba last visited the forum in March of 2016. He was a real character and I enjoyed exchanging posts with him very much. By any chance, was the recipe you used one of those that I posted at Rely 28 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19201.msg187980#msg187980 ?

Peter

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2019, 12:40:48 PM »
No, the recipe used was from bubbas youtube video for the hand mixed dough. I want to add my fridge likes to sit at 38-40. I refridgrated right after forming dough and cutting up to portion and rounding into tight flour dredged balls.

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2019, 10:25:31 PM »
Okay, I just looked back in the bubba ny pizza thread and I noticed that the recipe calls for IDY not ADY like I used. I feel like a bonehead... I wonder if this contributed to my problem?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 10:01:34 AM »
DreamingOfPizza,

I was planning to look at the video you viewed but I wanted to look at all of Bubba's videos to refresh my memory and to see if they would add to what you saw. However, I couldn't set aside enough time to view all of the videos. I plan to do that sometime today.

With respect to the yeast mix-up, it is possible that caused some problems because ADY ideally should be prehydrated in a small amount of the total water at a temperature of around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes, after which it can be combined with rest of the total water (at a much lower temperature) and other ingredients. However, the mix-up might not have been the direct reason for your results you achieved. Bubba used a lot of oil in his NY style dough, much more than is normally used for that style, but I wanted to see if he also used a lot of oil in the recipe you used. I also want to see the weight of his dough balls and the corresponding pizza sizes.

Peter

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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 04:23:45 PM »
Thanks for the reply Pete-zza.
I made another batch of dough just now following your post in that thread and I have adjusted the recipe to give a thickness factor of about .08, this time also using IDY for the sake of the recipe. I plan to make 2 12" pizzas with dough balls weighing about 9 ounces each give or take.
the formulation to achieve a TF of about .08 I tried to follow as closely as my scale could allow:

Rogers Bread Flour ~13.5% protein (100%):    307.78 g  |  10.86 oz | 0.68 lbs
Water (55.33%):    170.3 g  |  6.01 oz | 0.38 lbs
IDY (1.667%):    5.13 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.7 tsp | 0.57 tbsp
Salt (1.667%):    5.13 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Olive Oil (6.3482%):    19.54 g | 0.69 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.34 tsp | 1.45 tbsp
Sugar (1.667%):    5.13 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.29 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
Total (166.6792%):   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = 0.08
Single Ball:   256.5 g | 9.05 oz | 0.57 lbs


I will bake one of the dough balls tomorrow and another the following day to compare tastes, textures and so forth. Should I post pics here or include them in the Bubbas NY pizza thread?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 04:41:29 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

I think it would be fine to post the photos in this thread. We can always go back to Bubba's thread and post a link to this thread once we are done here.

Good luck.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 06:42:55 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

I did manage to look at all of Bubba's videos again. I also went directly to YouTube to read the comments to the videos. Some of the comments and Bubba's replies in the comments sections provided details that were not specifically covered in the videos or other posts in Bubba's original thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19201.msg187657#msg187657. I also scanned the rest of the posts in Bubba's thread in case I missed something. For example, I wondered whether you used a dough formulation that was different than the ones I posted. But when I looked at the videos, they all used the same ingredients and amounts. In one of the video comments, Bubba himself confirmed that they all of the dough videos used the same recipe. From my review of everything, I also noted that Bubba's dough was intended to be cold fermented (he said at 38-40 degrees F but that 40-42 degrees F was also OK) for a day but that it would make a good NY style pizza after two days and a good pan pizza after three days.

It will be interesting to see how the recipe you posted today works out. Your thickness factor is lower than any used by Bubba but it is still in the range of thickness factor values used to make a NY style pizza. I will also be interested to see if the large amount of oil (6.3482%) impedes the rate of fermentation. I mention this because 1.667% IDY is a very large amount of yeast for a cold fermented dough. In fact, Bubba himself said that if the dough were to be fermented at room temperature it would be usable in short order to make pizzas.

I also wonder how extensible your skins are when the dough balls are opened up, given that some members and commenters mentioned that the dough was on the dry side. Your dough may not be as dry as using high gluten flour since you are using bread flour. But even then I suggest that you let the dough balls warm up for about an hour or so after removing them from the refrigerator but watch them closely if they look like they are rising too fast. If they overferment, they may be hard to handle and tears may form in the skins. Any way you look at it, 1.667% IDY is a potential threat to success. Remember, also, that Bubba called for water at 100 degrees F. Unfortunately, Bubba never told us what the finished dough temperature was.

As for baking the pizzas, you did not indicate what kind of oven you are using, but in my standard electric oven I put the unbaked pizzas on a pizza stone at the first rack level up from the bottom. And I typically use a temperature of around 500-525 degrees F and bake the pizzas for about seven to eight minutes. If the top of the pizza lacks the desired degree of browning, I move the pizza up to the top rack oven position toward the end of the bake to get more heat but at the same time try not to overbake the cheese and toppings.

In several respects, Bubba's dough reminds me more of an American style dough that typically contains a lot of oil and sugar (but more sugar than Bubba uses) but much less yeast. Some of Bubba's thickness factors are also close to what is often used for an American style dough. I think that many would say that Bubba's dough formulation is not one commonly used, if at all, for a classic NY style pizza. In this regard, you will note that Bubba said that his dough made a "great" NY style pizza after two days of cold fermentation. So your recipe may take you a bit closer to a NY style for your two-day dough, and also because of the lower thickness factor.

As a final note, unless there is someone else called Bubba Kuhn, it looks like Bubba is in a new line of business:

https://munchies.vice.com/en_us/article/gvmkj3/why-arent-people-eating-washingtons-giant-crawfish

See the next to last sentence to see the pizza connection.

Peter

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2019, 10:42:26 PM »
Pete-zza,

For my first try I remember the skins being surprisingly elastic and stretchy, yet strong enough to not rip or tear, I was quite happy with how forgiving the dough was. After 24 hrs, I remember thinking they were maybe not all the way double the size but perhaps close. Early on in the mixing and kneading I found the dough to be very easy to handle and as bubba described in the video, no extra flour or water was needed because eventually, the flour will soak up the water. I found that statement to be true. I feel like he was right there making the pizza with me, I had my phone set up with his videos playing while I tried to follow his steps the best I could, I really appreciated his slow demonstration of handling the dough then re doing it at his normal speed. Really a great teacher, and it shines through that he is a very kind person.

As for my oven I am using an Inglis electric home oven and am monitoring the temperature with a high heat oven thermometer placed on my crappy thin, black coated pizza stone, it's better than nothing as I try to figure out what I want to do with my oven. I find the the top most rack even without the broiler is the hottest zone after testing temps on bottom, middle and top with my stone. after about an hour or more in pre heat and can manage 525-550. When the broiler is on it can get close to 600 if I'm on top rack with the thermometer placed more towards the back of the oven about 3-6" inches from back wall, but I don't know how steadily I can hold that high of a temperature. I am not sure of surface temps yet but I do have a temp gun coming from amazon.

Right on, I guess Bubba is on to new things indeed, living the life of a fisherman! Maybe he can come back and post some of his pizzas with freshly caught crawfish!

While I have your attention, based on my oven and level of experience (ambitious, but not there yet) which dough recipe could you recommend I try that is hand mixing friendly, and considered NY , the wife likes her pizza on the thinner side so judging from pics I have seen a TF of .095 to .075. I have time on my side so I don't mind trying a multi day ferment if need be.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:56:29 PM by DreamingOfPizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2019, 03:22:40 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

I fully agree with what you said about Bubba and his videos. As a aside, I did a search using his email address and IP address, and both were indicated as being in the state of Washington.

With respect to your request for a dough formulation to use to make a NY style dough, and where the dough can be hand kneaded, there are many possibilities. But somewhat as a generalization, I would say that if a dough formulation calls for say, less than 55% hydration and no oil, you are likely to have a difficult time hand kneading the dough, and especially if the flour called for is a high gluten flour. In such a case, a food processor is likely to be a much better option. But if there is a lot of oil used to make the dough, and the combined hydration and oil values (by percents) approach the rated absorption value of the flour, hand kneading should not be a problem. By way of example, most high gluten flours have rated absorption values of around 63% +/- 2%, and most bread flours have rated absorption values of around 62% +/- 2%. If you look at Bubba's values, he used 55.3333% water and 6.3482% oil (extra virgin olive oil). Add those two numbers together, and you get 61.682%. As you can see, that value falls in the range mentioned above for a high gluten flour, which is what Bubba used in his videos.

Many years ago, starting in September of 2004, or about a year after I joined the forum, I conducted many experiments using Tom Lehmann's NY style dough recipe. The recipe I used was the one given at the time at the PMQ Think Tank at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/New-York-Style-Pizza-Dough. Eventually, a similar recipe was posted on this forum with Tom's permission. That version is at https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php. Either version is a good place to start.

Not long after I started my experiments with Tom's recipe, I got around to making the dough by hand. I discussed one such experiment at Reply 68 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg5674#msg5674. I should note that at the time of that post, the dough calculating tools had not yet been created. That was to come much later. Also, at the time of that post, in which I used the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high gluten flour, King Arthur advocated that one not use that flour to make a dough that was to be hand kneaded. That prompted me to make a smaller pizza (12") to be sure that I could have success hand kneading the dough. It was later that I discovered that King Arthur's admonition against hand kneading was intended to apply to bread dough that required a lot of kneading to achieve full gluten development. That wasn't necessary for pizza dough that is intentionally slightly under kneaded. Eventually, King Arthur stopped using that admonition.

As for thickness factor, I used about 0.10-0.105 for Tom's NY style pizza. At the time, I had little idea as to what thickness factor values were used by professionals for that style, and I did not see anything that Tom or others wrote about at that time about thickness factors used by professionals. Later, it seemed that there were a range of values, typically about 0.075-0.105, with a value of about 0.085 being a popular value for the street NY style (I have seen lower for some so-called "elite" NY styles). I personally favored a value at the higher end of the range, but that was just me. Today, you can use the dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-calculator.html. That tool was named after Tom, in part because it was his NY style dough recipe that we used in creating the tool, but also to show gratitude and to honor Tom for all of his accomplishments in the field of pizza making. With the Lehmann tool, you can create your own NY style dough formulations, with whatever thickness factor you would like and any number of dough balls. For the amount of yeast, you might want to take a look at Craig's yeast quantity tools at:

Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg349349#msg349349, and at:

Reply 406 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511818#msg511818

If you click on Craig's charts, they will become enlarged.

If you need any help in the above regard, or to review any dough formulation before proceeding further, let me know.

I should also mention that there are many other NY style dough formulations than Tom's. You can see a list at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

However, the above said, I think that Tom's NY style dough formulation makes a good start on that style. It was his recipe that started me on my "career" on the forum and that taught me an enormous amount about pizza making, especially in a home setting. But I don't mind if other members offer up their favorite NY style dough formulations for you to use to make NY style pizzas and that are best suited for beginners.

Peter


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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2019, 04:58:23 PM »
Thank you Peter, I really appreciate the suggestions. I love the extended dough calculator, it is a very handy tool and it is how I came up with the formula to adapt bubbas recipe to a thinner crust.

As for Bubba, I think you are right, he probably does reside in Washington. I remember reading about his pizza restaurant Bubbas Homespun Pizza in Seaview, Washington and some members confirming it is the same Bubba that posts here. the thread is here if interested : https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1720.0

If you or anyone else are curious this is how my .08 ish TF bubbas dough with bread flour turned out after a 24 hour cold ferment. I will bake the other dough ball tomorrow to compare differences.

Just like before, the dough handled great when stretching it out to size, no issues with tearing that I could notice and it was fairly easy to get to size. The technique bubba shows in his video is very effective.

Overall I enjoyed it a bit more this time with the thinner crust, it certainly looked better and cooked better. it still had a dense quality to it as you can see from the pictures. Let me know what you think!

Mostly Cracker Barrell Pizza Mozzarella cheese, with some very very soft, sticky and squishy provolone (almost had a dough like quality), a light touch of oregano and olive oil. I tested brushing a part of the crust with olive oil, not sure if you can tell from the picture. turned out good. After tomorrows 48 hour bake I will be ready to move on to another recipe, probably Lehmanns

« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 07:11:26 PM by DreamingOfPizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 09:05:06 AM »
DreamingOfPizza,

Overall, I think that you did well. I was wondering whether the high amounts of IDY and olive oil would create problems even though the videos did not suggest that.

I look forward to the results from the longer fermented dough.

Peter

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 10:47:07 AM »
Thanks Peter,
Aftet looking through the Lehmann roadmap thread I can see what you mean about the higher hydration and lower yeast measurements... Some of those pies are more along theblines of what I want to eat. I especially liked your natural preferment with autolyse experiment but I dont think I am ready to take my pizza making to that level yet. I will try a more basic lehmanns variation next time i make a batch.

I will report later with the 48 hours bubba ferment.

Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 03:22:12 PM »
Alright, reporting back for pizza duty....

The 48 hour Cold Ferment turned out much better looking and tastier than the 24 hours cold ferment. I am happy with the results.

You can see that the crumb is a bit improved just from one extra day in the fridge, and as you suggested letting the skin get to room temperature before shaping (roughly 2 hours). The dough was not as extensible as the 24 hour version but it was still easy to work with and didn't have many issues. I didn't get a picture of the naked shaped dough skin but I managed to preserve some of the gas bubbles along the rim and in the body of the pizza.

Here are my pics. Thank you Peter for taking the time to help me out and give me some good info, pointers and directions.
Time to move on to the Lehmann recipe (or one of the variations)... Perhaps I will do a personal thread where I can just post all my pies.
Also a big thank you to Bubba, your videos are invaluable and have given me a good foundation to work on in my future pizza making endeavors.




Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 04:22:15 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

Once you take the dough out of the refrigerator to warm up (they call this "temper"), you want to let the dough rest AT room temperature, not TO room temperature. Technically, the interior temperature of the dough ball should be around 50-55 degrees F. That is a common value used by many pizza chains and is also the range that Tom Lehmann also recommends. But some of our members prefer higher temperatures, sometimes as much as 70 degrees F. So, in you case, you can try different temper times in your particular room temperature setting to see what works best for you.

Peter

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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2019, 05:08:00 PM »
DreamingOfPizza,

Once you take the dough out of the refrigerator to warm up (they call this "temper"), you want to let the dough rest AT room temperature, not TO room temperature. Technically, the interior temperature of the dough ball should be around 50-55 degrees F. That is a common value used by many pizza chains and is also the range that Tom Lehmann also recommends. But some of our members prefer higher temperatures, sometimes as much as 70 degrees F. So, in you case, you can try different temper times in your particular room temperature setting to see what works best for you.

Peter

Thanks Peter, very well noted. I did keep an eye on it to make sure it didn't blow up too much. I wonder if another day in cold storage would have been better because my fridge seems to get really cold. It sits at 36-38 degrees.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2019, 06:21:45 PM »
Thanks Peter, very well noted. I did keep an eye on it to make sure it didn't blow up too much. I wonder if another day in cold storage would have been better because my fridge seems to get really cold. It sits at 36-38 degrees.
DreamingOfPizza,

I suspect that another day would be an improvement if it doesn't overferment by that time. But having such a low refrigerator temperature improves the chances.

Peter


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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #17 on: February 27, 2019, 03:10:32 PM »
I tried this recipe last week and found on the fourth day of refrigeration, the dough was very workable. Produced a fine pie.  Not so much on day one or two.

Reminded me of pizza back in the late 50's early 60's when Ma & Pa local shops where all the rage.  Pizza was a new thing back then in the mid west.  ;D

Regards: john
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Offline DreamingOfPizza

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2019, 02:16:38 AM »
I tried this recipe last week and found on the fourth day of refrigeration, the dough was very workable. Produced a fine pie.  Not so much on day one or two.

Reminded me of pizza back in the late 50's early 60's when Ma & Pa local shops where all the rage.  Pizza was a new thing back then in the mid west.  ;D

Regards: john

Thats good to know John, i think next time I try this recipe I will do a 3 to 4 day refrigeration. Do you have any pictures of your bubba pizzas?

Offline Buck47

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Re: I used Bubbas NY style recipe and had some questions for you guys
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2019, 12:27:14 PM »
I did take photos, but I've since deleted them from the phone.  Truth is most all my pies look the same anymore.  It's the depth of flavor, texture of the crust, and the ease of opening I find myself pursuing at this point.  Also important is the ability to design a 3 to 4 day refig dough.

The other thing I've started doing is finding the working time of my dough after I remove it from the refig and let it Temper 1 1/2 to 2 hours.  Most of my pies now are opened and dressed at between 4 and 5 hours after being removed from the refig.  I'm keeping a record of ambient room temp.   One again my goal is to learn the flexibility in the working time after three & four day refig time and being brought out to temper and remain a workable dough.

BTW: this is a 12 inch pie from a 15 ounce ball.
 
It looked much like this:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2019, 12:43:24 PM by Buck47 »
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