A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Beginner sour dough recipe  (Read 1013 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Beginner sour dough recipe
« on: February 20, 2019, 07:44:39 PM »
Hey there!

I'd like to try making my first sourdough pizza. I've gotten pretty with IDY. I've had a starter for a while, but I don't use it much, although I have made some pretty good sourdough bread a couple times.

I identified Pete-zza's recipes in https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12644#msg12644 and https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg12748#msg12748 as a potentially good place to start because they seem thoroughly explained, reasonably simple, and they fit into my timeline.

Here's my plan, please let me know how it sounds!

Over the next couple days, I'll feed my starter. I've been feeding it All Purpose flour, but I suppose I'll switch to Gold Medal Bread Flour. The final feeding will be Saturday morning.

On Saturday night, I will combine some starter with some flour and warm water to establish a slightly wetter than dough consistency. This will be my "dough preferment", as Peter describes. I will leave this in a covered bowl over night at room temperature, which will probably be around 60 degrees (it's cold in NJ and I'm not running a heater all night for the dough...)

On Sunday morning, I hope that the Dough Preferment will be roughly doubled in size. I will then mix the preferment with the flour and cold water in a Cuisinart food processor. I'll let it rest for 20 minutes and then mix in the oil and salt. (I'm not really sure what finished dough temperature is going to be--I'll take the temperature of my water and finished dough so I know for next time.) I'll divide the dough into two pieces (I'd like to make two pizzas with it) and cover each one and let it rise. (I'll be home during the day, so room temperature should be more like 70-75 degrees.)

By 5 pm, hopefully it will be close to doubling in volume and I'll be ready to make pizza. But even if it hasn't I'll give it a try anyway, since that seemed to go OK for Peter.

Iíll be baking in a gas home oven at 550 on a thin steel on top of a thick stone, probably with a medium stone above the pizza.

My ingredient list will be:

Gold Medal Bread Flour: 100%
Water: 63%
Dough Preferment: 20%
Salt: 1.75%
Olive Oil: 1%

How does this sound? Any thoughts? Am I going horribly astray somewhere?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2019, 09:59:00 PM by nickyr »

Offline parallei

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2019, 06:41:24 PM »
That will work. ;D

Just be prepared to pop it into the fridge, or into a slightly warmer environment it it doesn't look right.  I'd bump the salt to 2% or so, but that is just me.

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2019, 06:52:35 PM »
That will work. ;D

Just be prepared to pop it into the fridge, or into a slightly warmer environment it it doesn't look right.  I'd bump the salt to 2% or so, but that is just me.

Will do, thanks!

Any tips for things not looking right that I should watch out for? I'm thinking that I'll need to watch out for growth that is too slow or too fast, irregular large bubbles, and the dough starting to sag.

Offline parallei

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2019, 07:03:29 PM »
Will do, thanks!

Any tips for things not looking right that I should watch out for? I'm thinking that I'll need to watch out for growth that is too slow or too fast, irregular large bubbles, and the dough starting to sag.

Yep, you've got it.  Too slow or too fast.  Irregular large bubbles can be popped while opening.  Never had a dough sagging problem. I'm guessing it would be pretty far gone by then.  Let us know how it goes and have fun.

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2019, 07:04:46 PM »
Yep, you've got it.  Too slow or too fast.  Irregular large bubbles can be popped while opening.  Never had a dough sagging problem. I'm guessing it would be pretty far gone by then.  Let us know how it goes and have fun.

Will do! Thanks for the advice and encouragement!

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2019, 08:48:07 AM »
Dough Preferment had a good night...

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2019, 09:00:48 PM »
The dough came out well! Easy to work with and very tasty. Thanks for your guidance!

I would have liked a bit more sour flavor though, it wasnít super noticeable. I know itís not my starterís fault because Iíve made more sour bread. I suppose that after the preferment step I should try doing a 48 hour ferment in the refrigerator to get more flavor?

Could also have done with a bit more oven spring...didnít get a good picture of that though. Had a lot of people over and the pizzas were going fast. (Which, btw, explains the odd topping combosói was teaching people to make stuff and letting them top things and we had vegans so each pizza had a vegan corner)

All in all, a great success, but plenty of room to grow!


Offline parallei

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2019, 08:58:20 AM »
.............. I suppose that after the preferment step I should try doing a 48 hour ferment in the refrigerator to get more flavor?

Nice job!  I've started using Ischia stater again after ignoring it for quite some time.  The pies I did the other day were a 24 hour, room temperature fermentation with about 6.5% starter.

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2019, 02:26:33 PM »
Nice job!  I've started using Ischia stater again after ignoring it for quite some time.  The pies I did the other day were a 24 hour, room temperature fermentation with about 6.5% starter.

Thanks! So I take it you just put the starter straight into a dough, rather that doing the Dough Preferment step Peter described? How sour was it? And how wet is your starter?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 28765
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2019, 03:02:53 PM »
nickyr,

I think you did a nice job. The two posts that you cited go back to 2005, at a time where I did not know much about using natural starters. In both cases, I was trying to use overnight prefermentation and prepare the final doughs the next morning such that they could be used to make pizzas at the end of the day.

Like you, I did not get a lot of oven spring. But, I was told by the forum's experts on the NY style that a classic NY slice had a small rim. So, I no doubt assumed that my degree of oven spring was in line with what they said. My goal in both of the posts you cited was simply to see if I could transform Tom Lehmann's NY style dough formulation into natural preferment versions.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline parallei

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2653
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2019, 03:45:35 PM »
So I take it you just put the starter straight into a dough, rather that doing the Dough Preferment step Peter described?

Yes, that is correct.  I just gave my stater a couple of feedings and it was ready to go. The other evening, I only used about 20g  of starter.  The method Peter described was, in effect, feeding his starter overnight.

How sour was it?

The way I've maintained and used my Ischia starter over the years has never yielded a very "sour" taste in the final doughs.  The final product usually has a noticeable sourdough taste, but it is not overly sour.  When I've given the starter to other folks, I usually tell them something along the lines of - "Think of a commercial San Francisco Sourdough Bread as a "10" on the sour scale.  This is a "3.5" if you use it like I do."

I'm sure there are ways to handle your starter to get more "sour".  Other's here on the forum would more about that then me. :o

And how wet is your starter?

For years, I've kept it at 100% Hydration.  Equal weights of flour and water.



Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2019, 10:15:42 PM »
Awesome. Thank you Pete-zza for making an easy and delicious sourdough recipe and thoroughly writing it up, and thank you parallei for the ideas for next steps! Off to a good start and excited to learn more.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2019, 10:31:27 PM by nickyr »

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 28765
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2019, 10:34:39 AM »
nickyr,

In my last post I forgot to mention that you can modify the recipes I discussed in the two posts that you cited by using the preferment dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html. In 2005, that tool did not exist. It was created many years later by another member (Boy Hits Car) and I, and specifically for use with natural sourdough preferments. We also allowed for the addition of commercial yeast and oil and sugar for those members who may have wanted to try to make home versions of naturally leavened Neapolitan style doughs.

Peter

Offline Heikjo

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 865
  • Location: Oslo, Norway
  • A sour dough makes a happy me
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #13 on: February 26, 2019, 03:15:25 PM »
You're brave to invite lots of people over when trying something new. I'm glad it worked out well, the pies looks good.

The recipe is good and I wouldn't change it much at this point. Your priority at an early stage should be to control fermentation and getting to know your starter and how it works. You control fermentation with the 1: amount of starter, 2: fermentation temperature and 3: fermentation time. If a dough is fermenting too slow, increasing any of the three will speed it up. If it's too fast, decreasing any of the three will slow it down. I'd suggest only adjusting one of those variables from time to time.

The most challenging part of baking with sourdough is in my opinion knowing when a dough is ready to use. There's no blueprint for when a dough is ready and it also got a pretty large window where it can be used. You can get pretty close with visual clues, but every starter and dough is different, so you'll have to experiment to find out what works for you.

If you ferment in a transparent glass or plastic container, you can use the bottom of the container as a guide to how ready the dough is. You can find many examples in photos in these topics:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0

Make sure you write down each attempt, how the process went, what you thought about the result and what you would like to change for next time.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2019, 08:25:08 AM »
Great, thanks you both for the tips!

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline GumbaWill

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 314
  • Location: New york New york
  • Many paths lead to the same destination
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2019, 06:21:37 AM »
The dough came out well! Easy to work with and very tasty. Thanks for your guidance!

I would have liked a bit more sour flavor though, it wasnít super noticeable.

Nice looking pie. I let a sourdough skin go to far yesterday. I am going to try again today. Getting the most sour out of your starter will begin at the beginning of the process. when you start building up your starter for a levein, let it go all the way to peak and just beyond. after the the first feeding don't feed it again till it starts to recede. You can then do this a second time if you like. You will notice the different smell once the starter is hungry. I hope this helps. I never let mine go passed peak becuse I am not a fan of very sour bread or pizza.

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2019, 06:41:37 PM »
Nice looking pie. I let a sourdough skin go to far yesterday. I am going to try again today. Getting the most sour out of your starter will begin at the beginning of the process. when you start building up your starter for a levein, let it go all the way to peak and just beyond. after the the first feeding don't feed it again till it starts to recede. You can then do this a second time if you like. You will notice the different smell once the starter is hungry. I hope this helps. I never let mine go passed peak becuse I am not a fan of very sour bread or pizza.
Ooh great to know, thank you! Iíll try experimenting with that

Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2019, 11:30:02 PM »
Since I made this post originally, Iíve only been baking with IDY. I got a lot better at a lot of things, so maybe that was a good call. But today I took another crack at the sourdough. I did basically the same process as before, except I (accidentally) used closer to 33% preferment. Also, my apartment was warmer since itís not February.

It was amazing. So much better than last time. Noticeably sourdough, but not overwhelmingly so. And much better oven spring.

My best guess is that the first time I did it it was underproofed due to having less preferment and a colder ambient temperature? Would that explain the difference in flavor and oven spring?

Half vegan cheese, so not the best picture, but you sort of get the idea :-) Itís a little pale, but I guess thatís too be expected with no sugar.

My next step is definitely to try to replicate this.


Offline nickyr

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 222
  • Location: Hoboken, NJ, USA
Re: Beginner sour dough recipe
« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2019, 11:31:05 PM »
Oh, and I used 180 grams of bread flour. I didnít write down what I used before, so now Iím taking note!

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress