Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli

[Buck47]

First a big  shout out to Pete-zza, Steve and all the members.
 
Through the years I have written few post but have been a devoted reader and student of the experience of others.
I could use the members help tweaking  a dough for once a week use.
 
You see I have a small rural rental unit called “Amish Country Granary” and have built a small pizza shop inside the horse barn across from the ‘Tack Room’ and Saturday night is pizza night. 
The Pizza and Stromboli are not meant for sale but are part of the experience.  And I like pizza on Saturday nights

So why not make one or two extra for guest.  Where only talking two or four pizza’s here.  This is not a big time operation. 

Anyway my basic recipe has been The Lehmann  NY style.
 I’m making a good pie now but would like to improve the mouth feel,  dough refrigeration and freeze ability.
   
Flour 100%
Water 62%
IDY  .23%
Salt kosher 1.25%
EVOO   1.0%
Sugar   2%

Method of mixing was designed by  Pete-zza ‘s :   
Water,  sugar,  salt,  oil into bowl mix with paddle.  Change out to dough hook – add flour mix two min/shaggy dough – rest autolysis 20 min – sprinkle on yeast mix at speed two  4 min – remove, ball , refrigerate.
 
The goal:

12 to 15 ounce dough ball used to produce twelve inch (12’) pie and or Stromboli
This would be a  refrigerated dough – with a best use window of 4 to 6 days.
I have  designated  refrigeration and can hold a steady temps  34 -38 degrees.
I would also like this dough capable of freezing for 7 to 14 days after refrigerated fermentation. ( I understand any dough designated for freezer may require the addition of extra IDY – I just don’t know how much extra  IDY to add to basic recipe)

Standard  Kitchen Aid mixer.

Baked in ‘Bakers Pride P22’ two stone pizza oven at temperatures in the range of 550F to 600F .

The final product would have an open crumb outer skin with a initial slight crunch yielding to softness when bitten into.

Cornicione height of 5/8 to 3/4 inch displaying  medium 3/8’ to large 1/2’ open hole crumb.

Available Flours: 
Montana, Hi Gluten – Spring wheat
                                                   https://www.graincraft.com/products/montana-hi-gluten/
Winona – Unbleached Bromated Patent Flour
                                                  http://michiganegg.com/products/flours-grains-cereals/1fw8045/

Basic Toppings:
Pizza dressed with – 4 ounce sauce, 18 to 20 pepperoni slices, 3 to 4 sliced mushrooms, 5 ½ ounce grated cheese.

Thanks for taking the time to read this posting.   And thanks in advance for you future input and suggestions.
 
Kind regards: john      AKA Buck47

[Jackitup]

Some pics?!?!?

[Buck47]

Some pics?!?!?

Hi Jack:  What would you like photos of?

[jkb]

Just don't try to pass off farrier shavings as sausage.

[Jackitup]

Hi Jack:  What would you like photos of?

Both the pies and stromboli! They sound great....

[Buck47]

Here are a few photos of the results I'm now achieving. 

15 ounce ball -- 12 inch pie

Flour is a Winona Patent flour at 4 days - (105) hours Refrigeration. 

Two hours on counter to warm and an additional 3 hours (or 5 hour total) to test working qualities after sitting out not refrigerated.

Room ambient air temp today was 72 degrees F.

8 min bake at 525 degrees F.

Flavor of crust was good, but chewy. Reminded me of pasta that needs another three min cooking time.

Want to increase the air hole size and change the texture of the crust.

To that end I have four more dough balls in the frig made from a High Gluten flour. They should be ready to bake starting this Thursday.


 

[Buck47]

Tonight's bake  was a definite improvement.  Much closer to what I'm looking to have as my standard pizza. 

Dough % have stayed the same except for a change in oil from 1.0% to 3.5% and a change in flour from Winona patent flour to a High Gluten flour.

Refrigerated 4 days -- removed from Refrig. and tempered 4 1/2 hours at a room temp of 80 degrees F.

Oven solid 550 F.    Texture, taste and chew factor of the crust / cornicione was about perfect.  No gum line.

15 ounce ball to a 12 inch pie.  Eight min bake time.

[foreplease]

Beautiful, Buck! Nice going. I have loved following your story and that you returned to post here after so long.

[Buck47]

Thanks foreplease:

It is good to be back reading and catching up on whats been going on at the forum.  For years life got busy, but now with the rental unit completed and the barn/tack room renovated I want to add Saturday night pizza back into life's routine.

Truth is I never did post much.  Read extensively and learned from other. Pete-zza and the other members have left so much valuable information. And I'm a big fan of Tom Lehmann.

Have you tried making Neapolitan style pizza?  The 800 degree 00 flour type?

Always wanted to try that and it looks like in the past few years the small LP ovens have come into there own.

Anyway if you where here I would offer you a slice of tonight pizza - I would value you opinion. 

Kind regards:  john

[foreplease]

Thanks, John. I am just on the front edge of attempting NP with a chance of success. I recently bought the Ardore high temp gas oven and have made a dough I think will get me there. Unfortunately, I was only able to try it twice - and at very cold outdoor temps - before some health problems dictated that this is going to have to wait a few months. I knew of the problem when I ordered the oven and still wanted to get it in place.


That said, true NP is not as important to me as I thought it would be when I joined the forum.

[Buck47]

What a coincidence -- I too purchased the same oven - should have it next week sometime.

Looking for a basic recipe that has a 3 to 4 day fermentation. A start on Wednesday morning, ready to use Saturday late afternoon kind of thing.
I would interested in what your using for dough and how you work it up.

Many of the ingredients will be hard to get unless the garden is up and going. Fresh Basil being one. I can get 00 flour at wholesale (50) pound bag at Restaurant Depot where I have an account.

And for the standard pizza supplies Lucky I have a Amish bulk food store 1/2 mile from me that stocks all the standard pizza supplies.  Good grade of commercial cheese, Hormel pepperoni and sausage and all at wholesale pricing.  But Neapolitan style ingredients are  going to be a bit more difficult.

I may be the only guy on the forum who can hitch up a horse & buggy and go shopping for his pizza supplies.

Sorry to hear about the health issues. I do hope all that works itself out soon for you.

Kind Regards:  john

[foreplease]

I can see you in the delivery business with what you have.


Honestly, I am not far enough along the NP path to offer good advice. There are many helpful posts specific to the Ardore (coincidence is right) here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54604.0

[Buck47]

Sunday night Pizza: 

Same Basic recipe, 15 ounce ball - 12 inch pie. 
White sauce / Alfredo style @ 3 ounce's. Chicken breast, Mozzarella and Romano cheese.
Notes:  Nice soft crust, good chew, holes in crust about perfect. No gum line at 550 F - 8 min Bake.

Could use a garlic oil brushed on the crust.   Artichoke, and possibly a few leaves of spinach for color.

Flour 100%
Water 62%
IDY  .23%
Salt kosher 1.25%
EVOO   3.5%
Sugar   2%


Next test batch of dough made today and ready next week will be the same with only the water changed from 62 % to 64%.

[Buck47]

Monday nigh pizza bake:
Four day old fermented dough. the last one of this test of dough. Tempered 2 hr  30 min.

Appears to have lost a bit of oven spring around crust, but then I added more toppings to this pizza.
 
Alfredo sauce, Mozzarella, Artichoke hearts (drained) precooked chicken, grated Romano, Minced Garlic.

I'm finding the crust is a bit softer than I would like. May reduce the oil from 3.5 % down to 2% with hydration at 64%

I found the taste excellent. May add more than one tsp garlic next time.  Eight min. bake time at 550 F

 

[Buck47]

Today's bake produced the style of pizza I have been looking for. It is based on Pete-zza's Papa john clone recipe.
The dough was refrigerated 122 hour - 5 days.

Four 15 ounce balls – 12inch dia.
HG flour 100%     993g
Water     56.5%    561g
IDY           0.14%     1/2tsp
Salt          1.75%     17g
Oil            7.3%        73g   Canola
Sugar       4.8%        48g

Made four balls Thursday 27, 2019 at 10:00 AM.
On Sunday March 3rd I removed the dough from refig and tempered all four balls for 4 to 5 hours to test the working time of the dough.
Baked two of the four balls, and instead of throwing out the remaining  two balls – I re-balled them and put the tray back into the refig.
On Tuesday March 5th @ 11:00 AM I again removed the remaining two dough balls and set out to temper. Thinking the dough was to old to make pizza I was planning on making some garlic knots and bread sticks at 1:00 / 2:00 PM. 
The dough pushed out well and was easy to handle so I went ahead a made a 12 inch  pizza, with sauce and cheese only.  550 F oven – 8 min bake time.
Noticed a few air pockets when pushing out the dough, simply deflated them – topped the pizza and baked.
The results where spectacular.
 
Large fluffy crust, 1 inch high, delicate and light with large air pocked circling the whole crust. The Cornicione did not deflate after cooling.
Slight resistance to the bite and then a sense of soft cloud like fluffiness.  Remarkable complex flavor and mouth feel. The floor of the pie was a solid 3/16 to ¼ inch thick with no gum line. It too was of a delicate light texture.

Made a second pie with the remaining dough ball, this time with sauce, cheese, and pepperoni. And once again another perfect crust.

My goal now is to duplicate these results several times working toward a six day fermented dough, made on Sunday evening and used the following Saturday. 

The center of the pie is a bit thick ( 1/4 inch) so I may reduce the size of the ball from 15 ounce to 13 or continue with a 15 ounce ball and push out to a 13 or 14 inch Dia. in hopes of reducing thickness. I want the Cornicione to remain the same = airy and 1 inch high.

[Pete-zza]

John,

As soon as I saw the dough formulation you used, I knew you had tried the original Papa John's clone dough formulation, but for a 12" pizza rather than the 14" PJ clone pizzas that I made. Also, you used a high gluten flour. Originally, PJ said in its advertising that they used a high gluten flour but subsequently stopped saying that. Instead they said that they used a high protein flour. You can see how I reacted to that change in the first paragraph of Reply 1120 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg458731#msg458731

As you can see from the above post, I came to believe that a flour with a protein content of about 13.3-13.6% was perhaps a good range. I do not mean to suggest that you stop using your high gluten flour. If you are happy with the results, you should still be able to use that flour. However, if you would like to go down in protein content, you can combine a basic all purpose or bread flour with the high gluten flour that you are now using. There is even a tool on the forum that can do the math for you. It is the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm

I also tend to agree with you that you may want to use a smaller dough ball weight. Your 15-ounce dough ball weight translates into a thickness factor of 15/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.13263. A member who once worked for PJ told me that the dough ball weight for a 12" pizza was 14.5 ounces. For that dough ball weight, the corresponding thickness factor is 14.5/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.12821. That is not a great deal different but you might give the lower thickness factor a try to see if it is an improvement and meets your needs. FYI, the thickness factor that applies to the PJ 14" size is 0.12992.

You might also want to try out an updated PJ clone dough formulation along the lines of the formulation given at Reply 585 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667

The formulation set forth in Reply 585 came about when I acquired better information that allowed me to get closer to what I believed PJ was using. Peoples' palates vary so it is hard to say whether the differences will be noted in the finished results, although I have noted that sugar seems to be the ingredient that tasters seem to detect the most on their palates.

In your case, you would use the lower amount of yeast and use the adjusted values for the other ingredients. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, I believe that the numbers for a single 14.5 ounce dough ball look like this:

High Protein Flour (100%): Water (56%): IDY (0.14%): Salt (1.9%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%): Sugar (5.89%): Total (169.48%):

242.55 g  |  8.56 oz | 0.53 lbs 135.83 g  |  4.79 oz | 0.3 lbs 0.34 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.11 tsp | 0.04 tbsp 4.61 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp 13.46 g | 0.47 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.96 tsp | 0.99 tbsp 14.29 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp 411.08 g | 14.5 oz | 0.91 lbs | TF = 0.12821

Note: Dough (14.5 ounces) is for a 12" pizza with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.12821; no bowl residue compensation

In your case, you can modify the above formulation for a larger number of dough balls, and you can also use a bowl residue compensation to compensate for losses in the mixer. I typically use 1.5% for the bowl residue compensation.

I'm glad that you liked the pizzas you made using the formulation you posted. Hopefully, you can improve upon those results even further.

Peter

[Buck47]

Pete,

Thanks you so much for the detailed information.  Just what I was hoping for.

Per your suggestion I will make this Recipe today and cold ferment for six days:

High Protein Flour (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.14%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.48%

Making one batch with a HG flour and a second batch with a Quality AP flour to compare the results between the two flours. 

BTW, is the hydration on this dough 61.55% (the combined total of the water and oil) ?

The six day fermentation works well with my schedule - as I only need the dough on Saturday evenings.

I will post results next week after I bake.

I feel confident I can lock in a solid Dough formula that gives me the crust characteristics as shown in the photos above and a six day fermentation for maximum flavor.

Thanks again for your help.  Kind regards:  john

[Pete-zza]

BTW, is the hydration on this dough 61.55% (the combined total of the water and oil) ?

John,

Technically, only the water can hydrate the flour. However, the oil also has a "wetting" effect and, especially when used in a large amount, should be taken into account. That is why we add the two percents (for water and oil) together and compare with the rated absorption of the flour used. I sometimes refer to this combination as the "effective hydration" for lack of a better expression. The rated absorption for a typical bread flour is around 61% +/- 2%. For a high gluten flour it is about 63% +/- 2%.

Peter

[Buck47]

Good to know.

The Amish bakery and bulk foods store are just 2 miles from my home. In the bakery she uses the Winona patent flour for all her breads and rolls as do most of the women in this community.  The Montana flour and another flour just labeled High Gluten are big sellers to the English who buy at the bulk foods. 

As you can see the results are quite good.
 

[Buck47]

Stromboli