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Author Topic: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)  (Read 2932 times)

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Offline bifi85

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2019, 06:20:28 AM »
New try, new fail. I used 1/2 of the culture this time.

documented process

dough:
100% flour
63% water (fridge cold)
3% salt
0,31% Ischia Culture (48 h @ 20 C [68 F])  This time I halved the Ischia Culture and used 0,155%.

I placed a proofing glass with 70 g dough next to the dough. After the 48 h I placed it in the kitchen (22-24 C [71,6-75,2 F]).


01 - After 36 h bulk and 12 h ball fermentation.
The dough in the proofing glass doubled in size.


02 - After transfer (upside-down).
The dough needed some semolina treatment.


03 - Before shaping the dough ball (top is top).


04 - Shaping the dough ball.


05 - After the final shape.
The dough is in a bad shape. You can see clearly through some parts of the dough. This translucent parts are wet on the bottom side.

The dough in the proofing glass still grew and grew over 60-68 h.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2019, 11:51:54 AM »
New try, new fail. I used 1/2 of the culture this time.

documented process

dough:
100% flour
63% water (fridge cold)
3% salt
0,31% Ischia Culture (48 h @ 20 C [68 F])  This time I halved the Ischia Culture and used 0,155%.

I placed a proofing glass with 70 g dough next to the dough. After the 48 h I placed it in the kitchen (22-24 C [71,6-75,2 F]).


01 - After 36 h bulk and 12 h ball fermentation.
The dough in the proofing glass doubled in size.


02 - After transfer (upside-down).
The dough needed some semolina treatment.


03 - Before shaping the dough ball (top is top).


04 - Shaping the dough ball.


05 - After the final shape.
The dough is in a bad shape. You can see clearly through some parts of the dough. This translucent parts are wet on the bottom side.

The dough in the proofing glass still grew and grew over 60-68 h.
Very good documentation.

From the videos I see a dough that is a bit too "digested"/fermented.

If those rubber bands mark the start (0h) and the end (48h), then to my eyes it looks like your dough has expanded somewhere around 2.2x (120%). That's ok but more than I would recommend (around 70% is my personal goal and where history shows I have the most success). In particular for long fermentation like 48 hours with Caputo Pizzeria it is important to watch the fermentation.

So good on you to reduce the amount of SD. You can probably reduce even further, or bake earlier.

For how long was it in balls by the way?

I've worked with dough that looks like yours. I understand that you are not satisfied, but I'd just like to say that in my opinion it actually does not seem that bad. Maybe not ideal, but at least I hope you got your pizza fix. :) Should be doable with care.

In short, even less yeast and/or less time can help. So too can a lower hydration. Reducing any or all of these factors will get you there eventually I believe.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2019, 05:12:46 PM »
Two more thoughts:

1. Depending on how you mix your dough, you could try to work it a bit more. More gluten to resist the long working of the yeast and enzymes.

2. The "flattening technique" may have a lot so say on weak spots etc.

...all of this assuming your flour is good. :)

Arne

Offline bifi85

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2019, 07:42:56 AM »
For how long was it in balls by the way?
Text below picture 01: "After 36 h bulk and 12 h ball fermentation. The dough in the proofing glass doubled in size."

1. Depending on how you mix your dough, you could try to work it a bit more. More gluten to resist the long working of the yeast and enzymes.
I mix the dough in the mixer together. Hand fold it a few times and let it rest for 10-15 min. Do this (hand fold and rest) 3x till dough is smooth.
I never had a overmixed dough, so I don't know when it is too much. I could let the dough much longer in the mixer. I use very cold water so it doesn't get hot.

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2019, 10:26:40 AM »


Text below picture 01: "After 36 h bulk and 12 h ball fermentation. The dough in the proofing glass doubled in size."

Whoops, my bad.

I mix the dough in the mixer together. Hand fold it a few times and let it rest for 10-15 min. Do this (hand fold and rest) 3x till dough is smooth.
I never had a overmixed dough, so I don't know when it is too much. I could let the dough much longer in the mixer. I use very cold water so it doesn't get hot.

If you haven't already, try less yeast still and a little more mixing time.

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Offline JanCZ

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #45 on: August 04, 2019, 07:10:33 PM »
Hi men I have same problem!!!

Dough is too sticky and balls not rising. I'm using recipe with poolish 65% hydra (25g adyp and then I use recipe without poolish same hydra (1g ady), total difference process and same result, before I was using caputo same  blu bag - bad ways but good result.  One day I bought flour from commercial shop and this happened to me. I think caputo is somethimes %$#...next day I will use polselli classica I can reply whats happened.

Offline bifi85

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #46 on: November 21, 2019, 04:57:50 AM »
Mixer:
Maybe I don't mix the dough good enough for good gluten development (but pizza dough has weaker gluten development by nature).
I use a Bosch Compact Mixer (with dough hook).
I mix usually a total weight of 1 kg.
I start with water (ice cold) in the mixing bowl and let the yeast and salt dissolve in it.
Then I pour over all the flour and start mixing for 5-10 min until all is combined and no dough is on the mixing bowl walls.

When I see pizza dough videos with a spiral mixer, the finished dough looks always very smooth and elastic (maybe the dough in the videos has always much more water in it than mine).

I use the same pizza dough process as always (detailed version with videos).

Dough:
100% flour (Red Caputo aka chef's flour aka Caputo Cuoco)
65% water
3% salt
0,37% Ischia Culture (48 h @ 19,8 C [67,6 F])

The pictures are taken after a ca. 42 h bulk fermentation.
When I ball the dough I don't get a smooth skin, it always tears even after one fold.
The bulk is ca. 1 kg dough and the ball is 250 g.

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Problem with Neapolitan pizza dough (hydration)
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2019, 05:09:07 PM »
Dough is too sticky and balls not rising. I'm using recipe with poolish 65% hydra (25g adyp and then I use recipe without poolish same hydra (1g ady), total difference process and same result
This one never ceases to amaze me - IMO, if your dough is too wet, use less water.

Mixer:
(but pizza dough has weaker gluten development by nature).
I'm starting to disagree on this one.
I usually use supermarket flour which is labelled at 10% protein. Here in Australia that means that if you take 100g of flour, you will get 10g of protein.
That is at what ever the moisture level is.

The other day, I used a bag of typo "00" La Molisana soft wheat flour.
10.5% protein. Aussie style label has to tell you what you are going to get when you use 100g of the product.

I gave it lots of mixing time, and lots of stretching and folding.

Guess what - initial 60% hydration made the dough too wet to handle. I did several re-balls with a fair bit of bench flour to get the moisture down a bit. Anyone who has ever tried to add more flour knows how much extra kneading is required. So no way there wasn't full gluten development.
It was beautiful to stretch.
Made nice puffy cornicione.

If you read all the guff published about pizza flour they make a distinction between protein percent, gluten percent and W strength.

To me the high strength from medium protein levels suggests that in the finely ground typo 00 flour the proteins are fully available for the formation of gluten, which makes sense.
e.g. whole wheat flour has high protein, but a fair bit of that is in the bran that has been left in so I find it doesn't work well despite the big numbers. Not all of the protein is available for the reactions that form the gluten.
In typo 00, even at lowish protein levels, the proteins seem fully available for gluten development.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2019, 05:46:00 PM by wotavidone »

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