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Author Topic: IDY, SD calculation  (Read 1956 times)

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Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #80 on: March 16, 2019, 08:08:22 PM »
But why even consider using the SD starter if using a small amount of IDY with long fermentation produces a very similar taste?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #81 on: March 16, 2019, 08:52:55 PM »
Because it doesn't.
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Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #82 on: March 16, 2019, 09:44:43 PM »
I personally think it does and so does jsasaras, and probably many others feel the same

Offline HansB

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #83 on: March 16, 2019, 11:13:46 PM »
It's starting to sound like you are just trying to convince yourself it's OK to not use SD. It's OK to not use SD.

Did you miss Craigs post? No one is telling you to use SD.

Seems like you're beating a dead horse...
Hans

Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #84 on: March 17, 2019, 02:38:52 AM »
Did you miss Craigs post? No one is telling you to use SD.

Seems like you're beating a dead horse...

Nope. I have been using SD for a while. Just getting others opinions on what they think the taste of that compares to using small amounts of IDY, long fermentation. 👍🏻
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 07:19:41 AM by Pizzaman143 »

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Offline Huzpitahas

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #85 on: March 17, 2019, 06:56:39 AM »
Thank you Pizzaman for bringing this up! It is a great topic and I also agree that using small amounts of indirect yeast tastes very similar to when I use sourdough starters.

Offline Rick_F

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #86 on: March 17, 2019, 01:17:22 PM »
People can taste the same thing and experience it differently.  I love cilantro, it is very herbaceous and love it in my food.  My friend thinks it tastes like soap.  He's right and I'm right, why, because our brain registers it that way.  I love jalapenos, they are not very spicy to me.  A different friend of mine can't even have black pepper on her food.  Her sensitivity to spicy foods is way stronger than mine, and we experience it differently.

In this case there are the people who can not discern the difference in taste between bakers yeast and sourdough, but I'm ok with that.  They taste different to me, different enough that I think it's worth the effort to upkeep a culture and use it in my pizzas.

If the difference is indiscernible to you, maybe it is not worth using for YOU.  And I'm ok with that, lol.

Offline Rolls

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #87 on: March 17, 2019, 01:30:19 PM »
Not trying to incite a forum food fight over the ol' "sourdough vs. baker's yeast" debate, but I've always found the following response from Michael Gänzle, who is an authority on this subject, to be insightful.  It's a response to an inquiry made by TXCraig1 in an old thread:

Quote from:  Michael Gänzle
Let's stay with sourdough for a moment, specifically sourdough used for leavening (and containing C. milleri and L. sanfranciscensis): here, cold (refrigerated) fermentation favours yeast over lactics; baker's that want to reduce the acidity in the product typically ferment cold (<20°C down to 4 -8°C)

Yeast dough without added lactics will turn into a sourdough after 8 - 16 h of fermentation at room temperature. How long that takes depends on the yeast and flour, fresh yeast has more lactics than dried yeast, i.e. the dough acidifies faster; whole grain flours have more lactics than white flours, i.e. the dough acidifies also faster. I never read anything about how long the lactics take to grow to reasonable numbers in the fridge, I assume it takes at least twice as long compared to room temperature.

Refrigeration does not inhibit enzyme activity (amylase, protease, a few others). I assume that much of the flavour impact of long fermentation results from more time given to cereal enzymes to break down starch and protein.

Extended fermentation of yeast dough for flavour formation seems a bit pedestrian. The use of a proper sourdough starter will produce superior results in shorter time.

In just a few short sentences, Gänzle offers some explanations that seem to me to give some credibility to both sides of this argument.  Like many issues in life, the answers are not always black and white, but are often expressed in shades of gray.


Rolls
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 01:33:56 PM by Rolls »
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Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #88 on: March 17, 2019, 01:54:17 PM »
Not trying to incite a forum food fight over the ol' "sourdough vs. baker's yeast" debate, but I've always found the following response from Michael Gänzle, who is an authority on this subject, to be insightful.  It's a response to an inquiry made by TXCraig1 in an old thread:

In just a few short sentences, Gänzle offers some explanations that seem to me to give some credibility to both sides of this argument.  Like many issues in life, the answers are not always black and white, but are often expressed in shades of gray.


Rolls

Thanks Rolls! Great quote. So when using small amounts of fresh or dry yeast for long fermentation, the dough is considered sourdough, according to this quote.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2019, 02:13:49 PM by Pizzaman143 »

Offline Rolls

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #89 on: March 17, 2019, 03:11:57 PM »
Thanks Rolls! Great quote. So when using small amounts of fresh or dry yeast for long fermentation, the dough is considered sourdough, according to this quote.

I'm not in a position to say and I think the exact answer would depend on what is the formally accepted definition of "sourdough" within the baking sciences.  From my own experience, yeasted doughs that are fermented for a long time at RT definitely seem more pungent in aroma, which I've always attributed to alcoholic fermentation and the acid byproducts in the dough.  Just last night, I made a poolish for some bagels, and like anyone will tell you, a poolish has a pronounced aroma which is not detectable in a regular dough of shorter fermentation.  But the difference is not only in aroma, as poolishes and bigas and other prefermented starters are also added to doughs to enhance flavour.  In fact, in baker's jargon, we often hear the term "souring agent" in reference to yeast based starters.  Presumably, the term "souring" refers to the acidification that takes place as the mixture ferments for an extended time.  Having said that, I don't know if it would be correct to call this "sourdough", as we typically know it, and I'd be inclined to say that it isn't.  Then again, Gänzle's statement that "yeast dough without added lactics will turn into a sourdough after 8 - 16 h of fermentation at room temperature" might suggest otherwise.


Rolls
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #90 on: March 17, 2019, 06:51:12 PM »
Thanks Rolls! Great quote. So when using small amounts of fresh or dry yeast for long fermentation, the dough is considered sourdough, according to this quote.

If you're interested in the context, the question I asked Dr. Gänzle had nothing to do with sourdough but rather what is and isn't happening in a baker's yeast cold ferment. You can read the exact question in context here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #91 on: March 17, 2019, 06:55:56 PM »
Just getting others opinions on what they think the taste of that compares to using small amounts of IDY, long fermentation. 👍🏻

Why?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline rdbedwards

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Re: IDY, SD calculation
« Reply #92 on: March 25, 2019, 07:32:36 PM »
I made two batches of 48hr RT dough, one on Thursday, the other on Friday.  Same flour, IDY, salt %, mixing time, finished dough temp, hydration, etc, but with different results.  The pizza I made Saturday night was some of the best yet, whereas the Sunday night dough was disappointing in comparison.  The only difference I noticed was a banana-like aroma in the Sunday dough and a hint of banana flavour in the baked crust.  The likeliest cause might be the ester isoamyl acetate, could this have affected the fermenting yeast?

Frustrating!  Maybe this is another case of Craig's theory that pizza will sometimes just do what pizza wants to do.  I cannot think of a source of contamination.

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