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Author Topic: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance  (Read 299 times)

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Offline quietdesperation

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sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« on: March 14, 2019, 10:40:32 AM »
I'm in the midst of baking my first tartine sourdough loaves. Someone videotaped the whole process on youtube. In the introduction, she mentions the sourdough fermentation process eliminates most if not all of the gluten, making it a good choice for people with gluten sensitivity.

a quick google search confirmed there's something to this. for instance, I found this less-than-scholarly article on the less-than-confidence-inducing-named site healthyish: https://www.bonappetit.com/story/gluten-sensitive-sourdough

“When you add baker’s yeast, that speeds the process of the rising of the bread, and it doesn’t give the fermenting event enough time to really happen,” Scarlata says. “It should be a 12-hour-plus process for best digestibility.”

it seems to me scarlata's assertion of " a 12-hour-plus process" needs some context around the type of flour used, dough temp, ambient temp and the amount of yeast. In any case, I wonder if the 24-hour cf workflows we use in conjunction with commercial yeast results in high gluten elimination? And I wonder if the 5-6 hour rt fermentation I used isn't as digestible. Or perhaps, in terms of gluten elimination, both workflows end in the same place? And perhaps we need more gluten than sourdough bread to provide structure and oven spring to our pizza?

In any case, I wonder if adopting some of the dough practices around sourdough bread could help members with gluten sensitivity and create a more healthy(-ish) pizza.

thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 10:45:21 AM by quietdesperation »
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2019, 11:13:40 AM »
It it reduced gluten to levels low enough to be meaningful, wouldn't the dough fall apart?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline quietdesperation

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2019, 11:49:26 AM »
that would be my guess too but he has a pizza recipe in his book and he says they just pinch some of the dough leftovers, so it's the same dough as their sourdough bread. the pictures look pretty good...closer to what jpb is doing than a ny bake. 

maybe pizza is bread after all. (just kidding!!)

"Is that a pie fit for a king
A wondrous sweet
And most particular thing?" - sweeney todd

Offline Pazzo

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2019, 11:50:37 AM »
I didn't know that it gets rid of the gluten. But I have heard that the longer fermentation develops enzymes and other things that allow gluten to be digested easier. Ben Greenfield talks about it quite a bit, check him out. I have a gluten allergy, which is horrible because it was a major road block in my pizza eating and I also used to love making fun of the gluten free people. I started making my own pizza because I realized that if I ate wheat products with a high amount of yeast and short fermentation times I would get migraines and fever like symptoms as well as vomiting. Once I started doing atleast 24hr rt ferments I noticed no symptoms at all. Cold ferment needs to be longer than 48hrs usually for me.   
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Offline foreplease

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2019, 11:09:06 PM »
Hans has been successful with SD bread being well-tolerated by gluten intolerant people. Hopefully he will see the OP and comment.
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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2019, 11:45:54 PM »

Offline Heikjo

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2019, 02:30:04 AM »
What is meant by gluten intolerance here? Someone with celiac disease or people who get airy and unwell from food containing gluten? If the latter, I believe time is more important than the sourdough. I got IBS (irritable bowel syndrome) and my stomach can act up a lot if I eat too much stuff it can't handle too well. That's because of FODMAPs, not gluten for me. I don't know if they have figured out the gluten sensitivity yet. The fad component is probably present in many situations, some just got IBS, but some they can't just explain with FODMAPs. I've seen the term non-celiac gluten sensitivity (NCGS) being used.

Some years ago when I started making sourdough bread, it was because I'd read in a book that many with IBS could work a lot better with SD bread since it break down the stuff that makes the stomach act up, at least to significantly lower amounts. Some time ago I read a tweet from Monash University that suggested it wasn't necessarily the sourdough that made those loaves better for people, but that an SD dough fermented far longer than most breads with commercial yeast, store bought or homemade. Especially store bought since they need to pump them out at a fast rate and don't let the doughs ferment for very long.

When comparing yeast doughs with varying lengths of fermentation, they found that the longer ones had lower amounts of their present FODMAPs, similar to an SD dough.

If true, it makes sense to me. If I buy a pizza that's risen fast, I get more airy than if I made it myself with IDY and let it ferment 24+ hours. I can't say I notice any difference between 24+ hour SD and IDY pies in my stomach.

I don't believe SD actually break down gluten to where it doesn't affect stomachs as much, I would rather attribute that observation to FODMAPs, which aren't also present. Gluten is there structure in any dough. If long fermentation got rid of it, wouldn't that severely affect structure in the final product and how the dough behaves?
Heine

Offline andytiedye

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2019, 03:24:47 AM »
My wife is allergic to whole wheat, but has no problem with sourdough bread made from whole wheat.

Offline Rolls

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2019, 09:23:36 AM »
My understanding is that through proteolysis, the LABS found in sourdough degrade the proteins associated with gluten intolerance. However, in a regular homemade sourdough bread, the gluten is NOT totally degraded but merely diminished enough to be more tolerable to those with gluten sensitivities.

Marco Gobbetti, who is an expert in this field, has experimented with hydrolizing wheat flour with water, selected LABS and fungal proteases, in a process which degrades the "harmful" proteins to supposed "safe" levels (ie. <10ppm) for those with gluten intolerances or celiac disease . The slurry is dehydrated to create a "gluten free" flour which is then used to make a dough, which is leavened with baker's yeast.  Structuring agents, such as gums, are added to give form to the product.

Here is the paper by Gobbetti et al.: https://aem.asm.org/content/68/2/623 and a video presentation which I previously posted in the thread linked in Bill's post above:




Rolls

   
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Offline Pazzo

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2019, 09:45:56 AM »
There is so much information out there and one can pretty much find a study or research that aligns with what they want to believe. The information I've seen that makes the most sense to me is about phytic acid and how it clings to other minerals and renders them indigestible to certain people. Slow fermentation reduces the phytates which in turn makes important nutrients more bio-available, reducing digestion issues. The lactic acid in sourdough fermentation makes it more efficient then yeast at reducing the phytate content.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2019, 10:35:14 AM »
Marco Gobbetti, who is an expert in this field, has experimented with hydrolizing wheat flour with water, selected LABS and fungal proteases, in a process which degrades the "harmful" proteins to supposed "safe" levels (ie. <10ppm) for those with gluten intolerances or celiac disease . The slurry is dehydrated to create a "gluten free" flour which is then used to make a dough, which is leavened with baker's yeast.  Structuring agents, such as gums, are added to give form to the product.

I think the takeaway from this is that while it may be a valuable tool in the commercial manufacturing of gluten free flour and/or other product, there isn't a viable application for home cooks.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Rolls

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2019, 11:02:37 AM »
I think the takeaway from this is that while it may be a valuable tool in the commercial manufacturing of gluten free flour and/or other product, there isn't a viable application for home cooks.

I think the original concept was to market bread, biscuits and even pasta products, and then the flour itself at some point.  I'm not too sure, as I don't follow the "gluten free" movement very much.  For me, the greatest achievement in Gobbetti's work was to use wheat flour as a base, unlike most other gluten free products.


Rolls
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Offline quietdesperation

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2019, 11:00:10 PM »
An interesting older thread on this topic:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50362.msg506516#msg506516

thanks bill, as you say, interesting thread. I see rolls and craig had a similar exchange in that thread.
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A wondrous sweet
And most particular thing?" - sweeney todd

Offline PizzAmateur

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Re: sourdough pizza and gluten tolerance
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2019, 11:16:16 PM »
I simply feel sorry for those who are gluten intolerant.

I find that I am the opposite.

I get cranky if I DON'T have some gluten!

As in a pizza!  (chuckle)

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