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Author Topic: Instant Sourdough Yeast  (Read 2208 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2019, 08:32:00 AM »
At least for me, it is obvious that this is just a "flavoring". 

Based on the sourness level of a 1kg batch made with half a pack, I don't think it's just a flavoring. I think it has viable LAB.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2019, 08:34:59 AM »
From the looks of it I'm guessing that it's nothing more than IDY with an added inactive white sour for flavor.

The IDY is distinct, however the majority of what is in the package is a fine rust-red powder.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2019, 11:23:23 AM »
That would be the cultured rye flour.
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Offline parallei

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2019, 11:29:54 AM »
Based on the sourness level of a 1kg batch made with half a pack, I don't think it's just a flavoring. I think it has viable LAB.

Having used this product two or three times now, I would agree.

Also, if it was just a "flavoring" of some type wouldn't it need to be listed somehow in the ingredients list?  I don't think of the LAB in my starter as a "flavoring" that would be listed on an commercial ingredients list.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 11:40:01 AM by parallei »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2019, 04:59:15 PM »
It has to do with the U.S. labeling regulations, the "cultured rye flour" is the flavoring and the fact that the LAB is shown in brackets immediately following the cultured rye flour means that these are the ingredients used to make the cultured rye flour. You will see similar things on the label of various bakery products such as where lecithin is shown as an ingredient immediately followed by brackets showing the source of the lecithin.
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Offline parallei

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2019, 05:33:24 PM »
It has to do with the U.S. labeling regulations, the "cultured rye flour" is the flavoring and the fact that the LAB is shown in brackets immediately following the cultured rye flour means that these are the ingredients used to make the cultured rye flour. You will see similar things on the label of various bakery products such as where lecithin is shown as an ingredient immediately followed by brackets showing the source of the lecithin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I guess I didn't express my thoughts very well.  To my mind, the byproducts of LAB activity produce a flavor like the byproducts of a commercial yeast fermentation produce a flavor (though a different one).  I wouldn't call commercial yeast a "flavoring" and I've never seen it listed as a "flavoring".  Is commercial yeast a "flavoring"?

When my amateur baker's mind thinks of "flavorings", it thinks of things that are directly added to a dough like herbs, spices, extracts and the like. I do not think of the inherent flavor of a substance like wheat as a "flavoring" and I don't think of the byproducts of fermentation as "flavorings".

What are "flavorings" vs flavor?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2019, 05:46:21 PM by parallei »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #26 on: May 20, 2019, 06:43:38 PM »
It has to do with the U.S. labeling regulations, the "cultured rye flour" is the flavoring and the fact that the LAB is shown in brackets immediately following the cultured rye flour means that these are the ingredients used to make the cultured rye flour. You will see similar things on the label of various bakery products such as where lecithin is shown as an ingredient immediately followed by brackets showing the source of the lecithin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how one would label the ingredients of a viable dried culture. White sour, on the other hand, lists acetic and lactic acids as ingredients, correct?
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2019, 07:27:17 PM »
It was pretty easy to shake out the IDY using a piece of paper, so I started an experiment.  3 bowls @100%HR: 1) control, 2) 0.2% Sifted LAB, 3) 0.2% ISDY. I tasted them after mixing, and there was no sour taste at all in any of them. I'll leave them out for a while and see what happens.

As easy as it was to shake the IDY to the top, if using less than a whole bag, you might want to watch to be sure that you're getting an proper blend of the two.
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Offline parallei

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2019, 07:48:44 PM »
It was pretty easy to shake out the IDY using a piece of paper, so I started an experiment.  3 bowls @100%HR: 1) control, 2) 0.2% Sifted LAB, 3) 0.2% ISDY. I tasted them after mixing, and there was no sour taste at all in any of them. I'll leave them out for a while and see what happens.

As easy as it was to shake the IDY to the top, if using less than a whole bag, you might want to watch to be sure that you're getting an proper blend of the two.

What is the "control"?

As an aside, I'm not too happy with how you shook out the bag.  Next time, you split and I choose.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #29 on: May 20, 2019, 07:50:09 PM »
What is the "control"?

Just flour and water.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2019, 06:53:19 PM »
I have the results of my tests, and I'm 99.9% convinced that the package contains viable LAB and is not simply a flavoring. This morning, there was no activity in the control, a modest amount of activity in the LAB only, and significant activity in the as-packaged. By this evening, there was still next to no activity in the control, however there was significant activity in the LAB-only, and the as-packaged had peaked and was starting to fall. As far as flavor, there was no detectable sourness in the control while the other two were similar with a noticeable, but not particularly strong, sourness. Keep in mind that I only use 0.2% in each of the two test batches.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2019, 07:47:26 PM »
I've contacted Lesaffre and got the answer directly from the manufacturer. It contains no viable lactbacillus. It is indeed a mixture of inactive cultured rye flour and IDY.
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Offline parallei

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2019, 07:49:30 PM »
Yesterday, I did a 24 hr dough @ 57F using the ISDY and baked it off this evening.  I used GM Organic AP, 62% HR, 2.5% Salt and 0.25% ISDY.  The 0.25% ISDY was 2.5X Craig's chart recommended 0.1% IDY.  The baked off crust had a pleasant sourdough flavor. I gave the dough a few sniffs over time as it was fermenting.  I agree with Craig, this isn't just a flavoring that has been added to the IDY.


Offline parallei

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2019, 07:52:23 PM »
I've contacted Lesaffre and got the answer directly from the manufacturer. It contains no viable lactbacillus. It is indeed a mixture of inactive cultured rye flour and IDY.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Interesting, that is not what they told me at the Pizza Expo!  Who did you contact?  I'd like to speak with them.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2019, 07:55:51 PM »
Please send me your e-mail address at <[email protected]> and I'll copy you on my correspondence with the National Accounts Manager, Sandi Cazalet (she was at P.E.).
Tom
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2019, 08:03:23 PM »
I've contacted Lesaffre and got the answer directly from the manufacturer. It contains no viable lactbacillus. It is indeed a mixture of inactive cultured rye flour and IDY.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

I don't know how to square that up with the results of the test I did. There was a distinct increasing sour taste and aroma over the fermentation period. I also don't think there was enough yeast left in the sifted LAB sample test do do anything noticeable yet I got active fermentation.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2019, 08:04:48 PM »
Please send me your e-mail address at <[email protected]> and I'll copy you on my correspondence with the National Accounts Manager, Sandi Cazalet (she was at P.E.).
Tom
Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Email sent.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline dmckean44

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2019, 08:06:29 PM »
I wonder if the dead starter added to plain flour might provide a more hospitable evenvironment for the naturally occurring lactobacillus in the flour to re-produce.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2019, 08:15:18 PM »
Is it possible that some form of bacterial fermentation was taking place, perhaps along the lines as discussed at Reply 125 Reply at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35873.msg363650#msg363650 ?

Peter

Offline parallei

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Re: Instant Sourdough Yeast
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2019, 08:21:55 PM »
Please send me your e-mail address at <[email protected]> and I'll copy you on my correspondence with the National Accounts Manager, Sandi Cazalet (she was at P.E.).
Tom
Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

e-mail sent to you also.  However, I did contact Lesaffre on their general site with the same question.  We'll see!

Thanks

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