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Offline cheeze_pizza

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First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« on: February 26, 2019, 01:24:13 PM »
Hey all! I've been really excited about venturing into the realm of roman style pizza. I have been a little weary of this adventure due to reservations working with high hydration dough but I'm ready to give it a whirl.

I have used the mixture that Rolls mentioned in the Pizzarium thread. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9989.msg489773#msg489773 75% Hydro, Flour split (90/10 APF/Semolina) 0.75% IDY, 2.2% salt and 2% oil. I made a single batch of around 1350 grams to fill out a 40cm x 60cm sheet pan (the pan just barely fits in my oven!  ::) )

The dough is currently around 52 hours into cold proof and I will be stretching and doing a test bake tonight. (4 hours rest on the counter before baking) I'm not sure that the dough is as smooth as my Detroit Style dough (which is also somewhat high in hydration)

I have noted that the pan will slide in like an oven rack, but it will not sit on my pizza steel due to the grooves that the racks slide into (it sits maybe a half inch above the steel). Does Roman style need that direct contact on the sheet pan? I feel like it does...

Here are some pictures. The dough picture was taken right after mixing. Thoughts?

« Last Edit: February 26, 2019, 01:29:43 PM by Pete-zza »
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2019, 09:40:29 AM »
Well, I went to make the Roman style last night, but I was met with many challenges. Overall it was a pretty ugly sight! I think I know where I might have gone wrong so here goes:

Took the dough out from CF and turned out to the counter with a generous coating of semolina, directly covered with plastic wrap and let sit for 4 hours. The dough was still super sticky and rose nicely. After that, I had to gently peel the plastic wrap off (first mistake - next time maybe some oil or a plastic container) and then I sprinkled more semolina on the top of the dough and started trying to stretch it. It was sticking to the bench like crazy and I wasn't sure if I was still doing S&F or just trying to stretch to 2/3 of the pan and then move to the pan. My dough did not resemble the dough shown by Pino in Rolls post in any way  :o

The move to the pan was not good and the dough became super thin in the center and all thick on the outer edges. I did my best to try to smooth it out but it did not seem to improve much. I baked at 380F with it un-topped and got a decent bottom but the top was super soft and pale. At this point I decided to test some toppings on the better parts of the crust so I topped it up and baked again. The top still did not brown well nor get crispy in any way. I decided to just pull the pizza out and go with what I had.

Well, what I had was a terrible mess. The dough stuck to the pan in many places and I was only able to get one slice off the pan intact and even then the dough was very unevenly cooked.

Going forward, I think maybe using oil on the bench might be better. I also think I did not do a long enough S&F on the initial dough to make it smooth and build structure. I still am puzzled on the best way to stretch the dough in the pan if it is going to be that sticky. I also suspect that I did not season my brand new pan enough to prevent the terrible sticking.

I'd say it's not good for a first attempt, but I think I learned some things.

Pictures of the struggle are included.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 04:39:29 PM by Pete-zza »
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Offline vtsteve

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2019, 09:53:27 AM »
Here's the dough handling part of the video, 15 minutes in: https://youtu.be/OjXWVSbWBV4?t=1013

Not focaccia, but it could be. It's worth watching the whole thing.  :)

I would recommend watching this video for a great demonstration on a Grandma Pizza, it just so happens to be made by a sweet Italian Grandma (the whole channel is fascinating).  I haven't tried making one yet, but when I do get around to it I may very well try her recipe / methods.


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Offline Pazzo

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2019, 10:01:19 AM »
My limited experience with al taglio at home was done using Vetri's recipe. It worked really well for me and that was pretty much the first pizza I ever made that I didn't buy the dough from a pizzeria. I think you're right that you didn't hit it with as many s&f's that you should have. My dough looked a lot smoother when I was done and I was doing 80% hydration. I fermented in the fridge for at least 72hrs and the dough pretty much stretched itself in the pan on many occasions using oil. I used a bit of flour when balling and did it directly on the bench using a bench scraper. I kind of invented my own method because I couldn't quite get the pushing of the ball that Vetri described.
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2019, 10:18:23 AM »
Here's the dough handling part of the video, 15 minutes in: https://youtu.be/OjXWVSbWBV4?t=1013

Not focaccia, but it could be. It's worth watching the whole thing.  :)


She makes it look so easy. I think I'll definitely try the Crisco on the pan and more oil on my hands next time. I enjoyed the video and followed her YouTube channel as well. Thanks for sharing.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2019, 10:18:44 AM »
Here is a video from the confraternita (in Italian).

I've made this a couple of times and each time it gets easier.  The video shows quite well how to handle the dough and the transfer to the pan.  Note that they make another S/F to form it after taking it out of the fridge.

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Offline Rolls

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2019, 10:23:15 AM »
cheese_pizza,

Sorry things didn't turn out so well, especially since you were following one of the recipes I have posted.

Some thoughts for next time: I'm not sure how you mixed your dough, whether by mixer or by hand, but it is important to achieve a dough that is smooth and satiny and tacky to the touch, but NOT sticky. If mixing by hand, a series of stretch and folds after the initial mixing will help get there. If the dough ball is sticky, it will only pick up excess, undesirable bench flour and create the problems you've already encountered. In my opinion, it is better to work on your dough mixing rather than switching to oil during the stretching phase. Most teglia doughs are stretched on a generous bed of semola rimacinata (fine durum flour). After cleaning and reseasoning the pan, you might try using crisco to "grip" the dough as you stretch it into place, though a very light coating of oil is the traditional method. In fact, with a well-seasoned pan, even this can be omitted. For the bake, I normally place my sheet pan directly over one of the lower oven racks, rather than on a stone or steel, and move it to the upper third of the oven later in the bake.

There's a bit of a learning curve with teglia romana, but it's a great style to learn for a home oven, especially if you go to the trouble of sourcing a proper steel pan.


Rolls
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Offline Rolls

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2019, 10:26:37 AM »
cheese_pizza,

Also, have a look at the following video which I have posted before, with instructions in English:



Flour 100%
Water 85%  (80% also works well)
Compressed Yeast 0.7% (use less if using IDY or ADY)
Fine Salt 2%

Dissolve yeast in water.  When dissolved, add about two thirds of the water/yeast mixture to the mixing bowl containing all of the flour.  Stir together with a wooden spoon and gradually add the remaining water mixture in stages.  Add the salt towards the end.  Begin hand mixing the dough as shown in the video for about 5 minutes.  This technique is sometimes referred to as the "Rubaud" method.  After 5 minutes of mixing, let dough rest for about 10 minutes.  Repeat this process one or two more times.  Pour the batter-like dough on your work surface and let rest for another 10 minutes.  Scrape the dough into a lightly oiled tupperware container and chill for 15 minutes.  This will slightly stiffen the dough, making it easier to handle.  Remove from fridge and place on lightly oiled work surface.  With lightly oiled hands, give some stretch and folds in order to strengthen the dough mass.  Repeat this process two or three times. Place back in tupperware and refrigerate for 24 hours.  After 24 hours remove from fridge and divide and weigh dough pieces.  Handle the dough as shown in the video and place back in the tupperware to ferment at room temperature for 3-4 hours.  Lightly oil the sheet pans (notice the dark carbon steel) and stretch out dough as shown.  Use semola rimacinata as a bench flour.  Depending on the desired toppings, the pizzas can either be dressed completely before baking or, more commonly, the pizza is dressed in stages, as seen in the video.  Bake at 500-530°F for about 15 minutes.  Cool pizza on rack to preserve crispiness. 


Rolls
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2019, 10:53:27 AM »
My limited experience with al taglio at home was done using Vetri's recipe. It worked really well for me and that was pretty much the first pizza I ever made that I didn't buy the dough from a pizzeria. I think you're right that you didn't hit it with as many s&f's that you should have. My dough looked a lot smoother when I was done and I was doing 80% hydration. I fermented in the fridge for at least 72hrs and the dough pretty much stretched itself in the pan on many occasions using oil. I used a bit of flour when balling and did it directly on the bench using a bench scraper. I kind of invented my own method because I couldn't quite get the pushing of the ball that Vetri described.

Are you referring to a recipe in his book? I've been thinking about picking it up...

Here is a video from the confraternita (in Italian).

I've made this a couple of times and each time it gets easier.  The video shows quite well how to handle the dough and the transfer to the pan.  Note that they make another S/F to form it after taking it out of the fridge.



This seems very approachable and a good walk through of how it's done. Thanks.

cheese_pizza,

Sorry things didn't turn out so well, especially since you were following one of the recipes I have posted.

Some thoughts for next time: I'm not sure how you mixed your dough, whether by mixer or by hand, but it is important to achieve a dough that is smooth and satiny and tacky to the touch, but NOT sticky. If mixing by hand, a series of stretch and folds after the initial mixing will help get there. If the dough ball is sticky, it will only pick up excess, undesirable bench flour and create the problems you've already encountered. In my opinion, it is better to work on your dough mixing rather than switching to oil during the stretching phase. Most teglia doughs are stretched on a generous bed of semola rimacinata (fine durum flour). After cleaning and reseasoning the pan, you might try using crisco to "grip" the dough as you stretch it into place, though a very light coating of oil is the traditional method. In fact, with a well-seasoned pan, even this can be omitted. For the bake, I normally place my sheet pan directly over one of the lower oven racks, rather than on a stone or steel, and move it to the upper third of the oven later in the bake.

There's a bit of a learning curve with teglia romana, but it's a great style to learn for a home oven, especially if you go to the trouble of sourcing a proper steel pan.


Rolls

No need to apologize Rolls! I'm new at this style and some things can be daunting when first trying them out. I recall my first couple of kneads with Detroit Style Dough and I couldn't fathom that the dough would turn into a smooth mass. I guess I should have applied more of that thought process to this dough.

My dough was very sticky in the bowl, so I would agree I didn't spend enough S&F time with it. I'll stick with the bench flour for now, but I might give the Crisco a go on the pan. Do you need to refrain from incorporating more flour as you work the dough, or is that necessary here to reach the smoother, less sticky surface?

As for placement, would it be advisable to place the pizza in the lower rack of the oven? I could have my pizza steel on the rack directly above it to create a 'heat dome' if you will. Thoughts?

Also, thanks for the video and English explanation of the video. I just need my dough to resemble what they are working with with in the video and I think I can manage. I'm dying to give this another go so I might get another batch of dough going tonight after making my DSPs.

Thanks again for your input everyone.

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Offline Pazzo

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2019, 11:17:48 AM »
Are you referring to a recipe in his book? I've been thinking about picking it up...

Yes. For 920 grams of dough (enough for one half sheet pan - 18x13 inches) He recommends:

KABF             - 500g (100%)
Water (90f)    - 400g (80%)
ADY               - 4g (0.8%)
Sea Salt         - 15g (3%)

« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 11:20:44 AM by Pazzo »
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2019, 12:59:38 PM »
Yes. For 920 grams of dough (enough for one half sheet pan - 18x13 inches) He recommends:

KABF             - 500g (100%)
Water (90f)    - 400g (80%)
ADY               - 4g (0.8%)
Sea Salt         - 15g (3%)



Thanks for sharing!
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Offline Rolls

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2019, 01:01:08 PM »
My dough was very sticky in the bowl, so I would agree I didn't spend enough S&F time with it. I'll stick with the bench flour for now, but I might give the Crisco a go on the pan. Do you need to refrain from incorporating more flour as you work the dough, or is that necessary here to reach the smoother, less sticky surface?

I would stick with a fixed amount of flour for a given recipe, rather than add additional flour later on in the process in order to correct a "sticky" dough. My suggestion would be to use 75% hydration and to follow the techniques in the video I posted. The desired dough consistency can certainly be achieved through proper mixing and a series of stretch and folds, all done by hand.

Quote
As for placement, would it be advisable to place the pizza in the lower rack of the oven? I could have my pizza steel on the rack directly above it to create a 'heat dome' if you will. Thoughts?

I've never used a stone/steel either above or below the sheet pan, so can't really say. To achieve better crust colouration on the top of the pizza, try moving the pan from the lower rack to one of the upper racks after a few minutes from the start of the bake. You might have to play around with different oven settings (convection vs static) and temperatures in order to dial things in. Also, adding a sweetener or some malt to the dough mix might help.

A little practice and you'll get there in no time.



Rolls

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2019, 02:42:00 PM »
This seems very approachable and a good walk through of how it's done. Thanks.

As for placement, would it be advisable to place the pizza in the lower rack of the oven? I could have my pizza steel on the rack directly above it to create a 'heat dome' if you will. Thoughts?

If you want to try the no knead version I posted and something is still unclear, please let me know and I'll try to answer or translate what is in the video.  FWIW, I've tried 80% dough both in my kitchen aid and with this noknead version.  IMO the noknead wins by a big margin both by being easy to make/handle and for the final result.  Though note that I'm just a novice at this :)

First mix it together with a spatula, here it's important to get it all mixed up good, but not so much that it turns into a batter.  You don't really want any clumps of flour, but on the other hand that will go away during S/F and the long time in the fridge.

Do S/F at the following intervals 30m & 60m (in the bowl), then at 75m, 90m, 105m, and 120 minutes (on the table).  Here liberally use flour so that it doesn't stick to the table, but try not to get too much mixed into the dough.  Just enough to help form a skin on the outside.  After that 46 hours in the fridge in a closed container.

On baking day take it out and divide it (if making more than one), then S/F and back into the container for 4-5 hours at RT.  Here the object is to form a nice "panetto" with a nice skin holding it together.

Reverse the container over a lot of semolina rimacinata, and cover the dough with more.  Then comes the IMO hardest part which is to extend and transfer it to the pan.  IMO use as little pressure with your fingers as you can get away with, as you don't want to "punch down" the dough at this stage, be as delicate as possible..  Then transfer to the pan as shown in the video, this also takes some getting used to.  The dough stretches and gets longer when doing this.  Finally pull the dough perpendicular to the sides with one hand, while tucking it in with the other one.  Like that it's quite easy to stretch it so that it covers the entire pan.

I normally wet the top with a water/evo emulsion and sprinkle some salt on it, but it all depends on what the final result is supposed to be.  Topped during cooking, after cooking, just emulsion, salt, rosemary, etc...

I have a really hot oven and cook it for about 12 minutes, but this will wary depending on your oven.  I think it's important to have the heat from the bottom for this, the top will cook and brown anyways..  I aim for an even golden and crunchy bottom.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2019, 03:35:31 PM by amolapizza »
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2019, 10:59:42 AM »
Time for an update:

I went with the advice Rolls supplied and here are some results. I did a 75% hydration and a 48 hour CF, then 4 hour rise at room temp. The mixing by hand was a bit challenging as my dough did not have the extra 10% of water that the guy in the video had. This required a good effort to fold the dough in the bowl. It did come out pretty smooth and I felt good about that. After two days, the mass had filled the entire bowl and was a little gassy. The super fine semola created a great coating on the outside of the dough and it was no longer unimaginably sticky when shaping it.

I baked it at 510F for close to 16 minutes. The last 3 minutes were spent on the top rack and a final minute of the broiler over it. The top did puff up dramatically, so I think I should have spent a little more time dimpling the crust when I pressed it out. It baked a little unevenly with the bottom being very crispy and the top being more puffy and soft. The crumb was dramatically open and oh so wonderful! I was quite pleased with this second attempt. I've been topping it and re-baking as I want a slice and it's almost gone!

So I have learned that in my first attempt, I did not get the dough to a smooth consistency in the mixing phase. This made for a very sticky dough. I did not toss the dough in the semola to coat it all around to help prevent more sticking. I was pretty much doomed at this point.

I think next time, I will try 80 or 85% hydration and bake the base one rack higher. That should help with more even browning. Also, more dimpling to prevent a huge air bubble from forming on the top of the crust. Finally, I think I might have a little too much dough for the pan (40x60cm) but not 100% sure on that. I'm really excited to give this another go over the weekend!

Here are some pictures of the process. I'll have to divide them into two posts. Thanks for all the input, I'm glad that such a forum exists with such amazing pizza gurus. Take care for now!

Photo info:
1. After mixing and doing the hand fold in the bowl
2. After the 48 hour CF
3. After stretch and fold on the lightly oiled counter
4. Turned out after 4 hours rise onto semola coated work surface
5. Stretching in the pan
6. After bake
7. View of the center cut
8. View of the center cut from the other side

More bread porn in the next post!
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 11:07:34 AM by cheeze_pizza »
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2019, 11:04:03 AM »
More Pics:

1. Crust dressed with Speck, Basil, and Grana Padano
2. Side view of a piece
3. Profile of the crust from another area
4. The stack
5. A simple Margherita slice

Thanks again!  :pizza: :chef:
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Offline Rolls

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #15 on: March 07, 2019, 10:44:56 AM »
cheeze_pizza,

Your pizza looks good and I would be very happy with a slice of the margherita.  With teglia romana, delicate handling of the fully fermented dough is important, especially since the hydration level is particularly high.  A common mistake is to thin out the center of the partially stretched dough skin when transferring from the bench to the pan.  It is easy to overstretch the dough midair, where gravity will cause it to sag between your arms.  If this happens, once you settle it into the pan, you will have too much dough along the perimeter and a thin center.  I suspect this may have happened to you based on some of the photos.  Just keep in mind that you're trying to achieve a stretched dough of uniform thickness and even distribution of the air bubbles. No raised rim along the edges.

Taking note of your oven setup is a good idea in order to make adjustments in future bakes.

Looking forward to your next attempts.


Rolls
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2019, 11:56:25 AM »
I'm thinking it's time for another go at this. This time I'm using a smaller pan (30x40cm), which I think will allow better browning on the top of the dough. The larger pan is literally wall to wall in the oven and I don't think proper heat is getting to the top of the dough.

Since last time, I have started a levain that I'm tending to. I plan to use levain on this next go. The recipe I'm eyeing is 90% hydration with 30% levain, 2% salt, and 3% olive oil. I do recall doing math on how much dough I would need to fill the sheet properly, but I don't seem to have written it down...

So, let me pose this question, for a 1200 sq cm sheet pan, what would the target dough mass be? I feel like I could just base the recipe on 1kg flour to keep it easy, but I don't want a huge excess of dough. Once I have the total mass, I can produce the proper weights for the individual ingredients. Thoughts?

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2019, 05:59:02 PM »
The Italians calculate it like this:  40 x 30 / 2 ~ 600g, then add 10%, so roughly 650g would be a good amount.
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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2019, 10:54:00 AM »
The Italians calculate it like this:  40 x 30 / 2 ~ 600g, then add 10%, so roughly 650g would be a good amount.

Thanks for the input!

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Offline cheeze_pizza

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Re: First Foray into Roman Style al Taglio Pizza
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2019, 12:26:42 PM »
Pictures after the 3rd stretch & fold, then relaxed right before going in the fridge, and lastly in the fridge after 10 hours. More photos tomorrow.
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