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Author Topic: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven  (Read 11194 times)

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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #400 on: September 04, 2019, 12:03:19 AM »
Thank you!  So I decided to put in some support columns for the 3 shelves.  I'm going to do that back one first.  I used masonry cement and add mix-21 to mortar in a 6" wide partition block.  My idea is to stack 5 of them and fill with concrete.  They will then be mortared up to the bottom of the granite shelves.  I'm thinking 1 on each side, but I could do 2 on each side for extra support.  There is just enough room on the ground slab to support a 6" block.  Some of the slab is only 3" though, but I think there will be enough touching the slab to keep it study, especially with the mortar.  I also will mortar the back of each block to the stand, to keep it even more solid in place.

You lost me here. I think you are maybe stacking half blocks as a column to support the shelf holding the brick walls. I do not know what they base of the column is - how much of the column is on the foundation slab. Anyhow, if you are doing that you have about 8-in by 8-in by 5x8-in high, or 2560 cubic inches in volume. When you fill that column you will have almost 1.5 cubic feet of concrete which will weigh about 225 pounds. Again, assuming we are on the same page. I do not think whatever mortar you are going to jam between the column and existing support wall will hold the in place. Aside from keeping the columns upright, you also have to make good contact with the shelf you want to support.

Would something this size work stacked up on the edge of slab you have?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-8-in-x-4-in-Concrete-Block-30165803/100350254

Instead of filling cores, you could stack these, mortar all around and also drill in some kind of mechanical fastener to the stand walls,  a few long tapcons or some kind of anchor bolt. It sounds like you are tying to install a masonry version of a jack post and I'm not sure it really exists.


For the roof, I will fire up the oven tomorrow and finish the hydraulic cement.  Now I noticed that the same company sells liquid and non liquid roof tape https://gaco.com/product-details/liquidrooftape/. This seems like a good idea instead of or over the hydraulic cement.  It may be needed though as the GacoRoof seems like it would fill any minute gaps.  I'll probably fill each gap with remaining hydraulic cement and then see if I need a tape.  So far all big gaps are filled and now just little gaps remain between bricks.

I'm also wondering about toxicity compared to the sealer.  One of the clear sealers at Lowes was listed as non toxic.

Call Gaco and talk to someone there. They will tell you what their products can and can't do. If they don't have what you need, maybe they point you in a different direction. Whatever you apply to the roof, I think you may need to start with a flat surface. I thought you were putting on an even layer of hydraulic over the bricks. With such a low slope to the roof, I think you may see some ponding if there are ridges.

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #401 on: September 05, 2019, 09:32:59 AM »
You lost me here. I think you are maybe stacking half blocks as a column to support the shelf holding the brick walls. I do not know what they base of the column is - how much of the column is on the foundation slab. Anyhow, if you are doing that you have about 8-in by 8-in by 5x8-in high, or 2560 cubic inches in volume. When you fill that column you will have almost 1.5 cubic feet of concrete which will weigh about 225 pounds. Again, assuming we are on the same page. I do not think whatever mortar you are going to jam between the column and existing support wall will hold the in place. Aside from keeping the columns upright, you also have to make good contact with the shelf you want to support.

Would something this size work stacked up on the edge of slab you have?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/16-in-x-8-in-x-4-in-Concrete-Block-30165803/100350254

Instead of filling cores, you could stack these, mortar all around and also drill in some kind of mechanical fastener to the stand walls,  a few long tapcons or some kind of anchor bolt. It sounds like you are tying to install a masonry version of a jack post and I'm not sure it really exists.


Call Gaco and talk to someone there. They will tell you what their products can and can't do. If they don't have what you need, maybe they point you in a different direction. Whatever you apply to the roof, I think you may need to start with a flat surface. I thought you were putting on an even layer of hydraulic over the bricks. With such a low slope to the roof, I think you may see some ponding if there are ridges.

Thank you.  I may use those for the next two columns.  I used 6" partition block instead of the bigger ones.  The 6" width fit perfectly on the slab and I mortared the bottom one first to the slab and to the stand.  Then I stacked each one while mortaring each one to the stand.  I filled the entire column with concrete and then concreted in between the column and the shelf to make contact.  I will definitely give them a call and it was tough to get the hydraulic smooth since it set so quickly, but I could always sand it down I'm assuming. 

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #402 on: September 05, 2019, 10:52:22 PM »
So I got a pretty hot fire going and the roof and walls didn't heat up at all in 2-3 hours.  I think I may go with Spanish roof tiles.  This way I don't have to worry about how smooth the roof is, and I like how it's non-toxic.  I wonder if the synthetic can be mortared in.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #403 on: September 05, 2019, 11:44:19 PM »
Good news on the (lack of) heat loss! Sorry, I have no idea about mortaring in synthetic. Are the Spanish roof tiles you have in mind synthetic?
-Tony

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #404 on: September 06, 2019, 09:03:16 AM »
I've got no idea how to do a tile roof. You could poke around youtube. Maybe there are some installation videos. My only recommendation would be to check the minimum recommended roof slope for the tiles. Not all materials are meant to go on a fairly flat roof.

Good news about the top not heating up. Your going to finish your oven long before I finish mine!

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #405 on: September 06, 2019, 12:50:22 PM »
Good news on the (lack of) heat loss! Sorry, I have no idea about mortaring in synthetic. Are the Spanish roof tiles you have in mind synthetic?

Thank you haha!  I've seen some synthetic ones on a few sites, but it does seem like they're usually screwed in.  I'm going to call/go down to a few places and see what they have.  I have a feeling I may need the heavy traditional ones.  The weight is something I'm not liking, so I still may go with the silicone roofing.  I'll give them a call today as well.

I've got no idea how to do a tile roof. You could poke around youtube. Maybe there are some installation videos. My only recommendation would be to check the minimum recommended roof slope for the tiles. Not all materials are meant to go on a fairly flat roof.

Good news about the top not heating up. Your going to finish your oven long before I finish mine!
Thank you as well.  The only place I really saw anyone mortar them in, was on YouTube.  Most roofing on a google search is for modern methods, so it's been tough.  I can learn how to mortar some in hopefully, with a roofing mortar from Sakrete, I'm just worried about the crazy weight.  Good point about the roof slope.  How's your even coming?!  I didn't know you were building one! that's awesome  :D

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #406 on: September 06, 2019, 01:02:27 PM »


Thank you haha!  I've seen some synthetic ones on a few sites, but it does seem like they're usually screwed in.  I'm going to call/go down to a few places and see what they have.  I have a feeling I may need the heavy traditional ones.  The weight is something I'm not liking, so I still may go with the silicone roofing.  I'll give them a call today as well.
Thank you as well.  The only place I really saw anyone mortar them in, was on YouTube.  Most roofing on a google search is for modern methods, so it's been tough.  I can learn how to mortar some in hopefully, with a roofing mortar from Sakrete, I'm just worried about the crazy weight.  Good point about the roof slope.  How's your even coming?!  I didn't know you were building one! that's awesome  :D

Mine is built and enclosed but I've got to make the outside pretty. Right now it is exposed wonderboard and block.

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #407 on: September 09, 2019, 10:02:04 PM »

Mine is built and enclosed but I've got to make the outside pretty. Right now it is exposed wonderboard and block.

Sorry, for some weird reason I thought it was foreplease who was also building an oven.  Haha my bad.  Wow your oven looks amazing and professional.  I love the roof and I need to finish the walls too with some stucco.  I need to decide if I do columns on the sides too.  I feel that I should, but the slab is only 5" and the blocks are 6". 

1.  How do you like to hold your peels outside when you're cooking?

2.  So I made two pizzas so far using small fires.  After 1.5-2 hours, the floor is hot enough that I burnt the bottom, but since I like to cook with embers, the door has to be half closed and I'll need a bigger ember mass.  5 logs just isn't quite enough, so I'll need bigger fires or longer heating times.  Since I don't cook with open flames as much, keeping heat in with the door and more heat will help.  At least I found out how to prop the door half open and not kill the fire.

3.  So the heating of the walls has caused the mortar on one course to crack at the point where it bonds to the brick below.  It seems that the heat is expanding the mortar and then contracting when it cools down.  Is this okay?  It must be from the fact that I didn't use high temp mortar on the enclosure walls.  The weird thing is that it's happening over the course of a few feet long and on the chimney area too.  The chimney and walls are not connected either, and the cracks are at the same height course of bricks.

You can see The crack in the middle of the picture and these are just low heat pizza tests. I knew that it wasn’t going to make perfect pizza, but just wanted to see how the heat was.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 10:10:31 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #408 on: September 09, 2019, 10:15:22 PM »


Sorry, for some weird reason I thought it was foreplease who was also building an oven.  Haha my bad.  Wow your oven looks amazing and professional.  I love the roof and I need to finish the walls too with some stucco.  I need to decide if I do columns on the sides too.  I feel that I should, but the slab is only 5" and the blocks are 6". 

1.  How do you like to hold your peels outside when you're cooking?

2.  So I made two pizzas so far using small fires.  After 1.5-2 hours, the floor is hot enough that I burnt the bottom, but since I like to cook with embers, the door has to be half closed and I'll need a bigger ember mass.  5 logs just isn't quite enough, so I'll need bigger fires or longer heating times.  Since I don't cook with open flames as much, keeping heat in with the door and more heat will help.  At least I found out how to prop the door half open and not kill the fire.

3.  So the heating of the walls has caused the mortar on one course to crack at the point where it bonds to the brick below.  It seems that the heat is expanding the mortar and then contracting when it cools down.  Is this okay?  It must be from the fact that I didn't use high temp mortar on the enclosure walls.  The weird thing is that it's happening over the course of a few feet long and on the chimney area too.  The chimney and walls are not connected either, and the cracks are at the same height course of bricks.

Lately,  I build the pizza on the counter high table. Launch from the wood peel and then put the peel back on the table. I've been keeping the turning peel on the wheelbarrow of wood. I might make get some kind of stand to keep nearby.

I dont fully follow your description of the crack locations. I can tell you that every one wants to build a crack free oven but no one does. I've got a few cracks. I'm probably the only one that will ever notice them and you can only see them when the dome burns clear, but I have some cracks. From a straight structural stability standpoint, I think your oven chamber would be fairly solid just dry stacked. The mortar is added strength.

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #409 on: September 10, 2019, 03:27:50 AM »

Lately,  I build the pizza on the counter high table. Launch from the wood peel and then put the peel back on the table. I've been keeping the turning peel on the wheelbarrow of wood. I might make get some kind of stand to keep nearby.

I dont fully follow your description of the crack locations. I can tell you that every one wants to build a crack free oven but no one does. I've got a few cracks. I'm probably the only one that will ever notice them and you can only see them when the dome burns clear, but I have some cracks. From a straight structural stability standpoint, I think your oven chamber would be fairly solid just dry stacked. The mortar is added strength.

Very similar to my system, except that I have to build the pizza indoors.  Haha funny because that's exactly where I've been keeping the turning peel in between turns.  I was thinking of using some more partition blocks, and using the holes of them as a holder.  That's reassuring about the mortar in the oven, as I was nervous earlier when firing. 

The only visible cracks so far are in the red clay brick enclosure walls.  You can kind of see it in the middle of the second pic when zoomed in, but the crack is exactly at the bond between the mortar and the brick. It's splitting and opening when fired.  This same type of crack happened when I was demolishing the roof and caused the mortar to crack off.  The difference is that with this, the cracks close when the oven cools down.  The crack is thin and gravity is on my side.  It doesn't seem like it will be an issue as it goes right back down, but it's interesting how it opens up a bit.  I could always fill the cracks with a crack fix.  What is interesting is it is cracking at the same course on both the chimney area and the walls, with one being type s mortar and one being type n mortar and were done months apart!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 03:34:17 AM by Pod4477 »

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #410 on: September 11, 2019, 05:08:40 PM »
So I realized that Melbourne Firebrick Company uses acrylic texture coating on their perlcrete, so my plan is to use Castible cement or hydraulic cement on the roof and then seal it with the texture coating or a masonry sealer.  I may Also use dry loc crack filler to fill in the small gaps in bricks instead of using cement, but I'm not sure if I should use it where it's a silicone based product.

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #411 on: September 11, 2019, 08:04:48 PM »
I filled in the small gaps with masonry cement and now plan on sealing or using the acrylic texture coating.  I may have to sand down the entire thing to get it level.  The ATC must be fine with small heat, since the Melbourne Firebrick company uses it over their perlcrete.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #412 on: September 11, 2019, 10:55:30 PM »
I filled in the small gaps with masonry cement and now plan on sealing or using the acrylic texture coating.  I may have to sand down the entire thing to get it level.  The ATC must be fine with small heat, since the Melbourne Firebrick company uses it over their perlcrete.
If I am picturing this correctly, it may be easier to skim coat the entire roof with some kind of concrete product or something formulated to bond with the masonry work you have up there. Sanding bricks and mortar to a smooth surface - you are interested in having things on one plane rather than level, I presume - seems almost endlessly difficult.


Good luck. It must be a good feeling to be this close to having it wrapped up and fully useable. And, no, I am not building an oven.  :-D :-D
-Tony

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #413 on: September 12, 2019, 01:41:38 PM »
If I am picturing this correctly, it may be easier to skim coat the entire roof with some kind of concrete product or something formulated to bond with the masonry work you have up there. Sanding bricks and mortar to a smooth surface - you are interested in having things on one plane rather than level, I presume - seems almost endlessly difficult.


Good luck. It must be a good feeling to be this close to having it wrapped up and fully useable. And, no, I am not building an oven.  :-D :-D

Yup you're right.  So I filled in the gaps with the masonry cement, and now I am thinking of doing a skim coat with either masonry cement or maybe even a concrete patching product for added strength, and to get the top nice and smooth sloped.  Then I'll seal it or use the acrylic texture.  The acrylic texture coating says it's breathable, but I don't think it's as waterproof as a sealer.  It must be good stuff though if the Melbourne Firebrick Company uses it on their oven, although theirs is an igloo enclosure. 

Oh yes, it's very close now.  My concern is that cracking that happens along the enclosure walls due to heat.  It's definitely from not using refractory mortar, but most seems to be holding up fine.  It's just one course of the brick on the wall and chimney area (the same elevation on both) that is opening.  I assume I can just patch the crack that opens, but I don't like how it's the bond between the brick and mortar that is opening up.  Gravity does help, but I guess I could always seal it or stucco the bricks together to keep it together.  I also suppose it's a built in weep hole with the hairline crack.  The crack gets pretty big when it heats and then goes back down to barely noticeable after.  It may just be the mortar shrinking.  I'll try to take a video.  The debonded look of the crack is exactly the same as what happened when I used blunt force and caused the mortar to debond from the brick, so that's why I'm a bit nervous.  So far though, it's been strong.

Haha I always get users mixed up!
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 01:49:28 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #414 on: September 12, 2019, 08:12:28 PM »
Talked to PPG paints and they recommend a sealer instead of an acrylic texture coating, just from the standpoint of sealers being waterproof.  So my plan is to use concrete or concrete patching to get a nice smooth top with a better slope, and then sealer over that.

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #415 on: September 12, 2019, 10:39:47 PM »
I'm debating what to use to level the top.  I'm thinking a crack resistant concrete or concrete patcher.  The patcher should be ¼" which may be an issue, but I could do an 1" maybe.  I had good results with using the patcher around 1-2", and it was solid!  There's also concrete leveler mix.  I'd have to make the concrete slab 2" or larger though, but I'm thinking of giving it a slight pitch anyway.  Then my plan is to use a sealer or the silicone roofing Jon mentioned.

Also weighing options with the sealer/acrylic coating.  The acrylic seems less toxic with vapors and Melbourne Firebrick Company coats their perlcrete with it, so it should be safe.  I'm not sure if https://www.valsparpaint.com/system/galleries/download/product_datasheet/82092_Natural_look_waterproofer.pdf is as safe.  I'm assuming Melbourne Firebrick Company expects some heat to get to the Acrylic coating, so I'm sure it's safe if it heats up.  It's not waterproof, but seems good enough if they use it.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2019, 11:25:00 PM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #416 on: September 16, 2019, 10:20:31 AM »
So my current plan is to just hydraulic cement the entire roof and then use a sealer or acrylic texture coat for added security.  The texture coat isn't water proof, but I like how it may be better on the toxicity spectrum since we know Melbourne Firebrick Company uses it directly over their perlcrete layer. 

Offline foreplease

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #417 on: September 16, 2019, 11:15:05 AM »
So my current plan is to just hydraulic cement the entire roof and then use a sealer or acrylic texture coat for added security.  The texture coat isn't water proof, but I like how it may be better on the toxicity spectrum since we know Melbourne Firebrick Company uses it directly over their perlcrete layer.
You are probably right about the toxicity spectrum but I suggest looking into the facts manufacturers are forced to disclose vis-a-vis the product’s MSDS (material safety data sheet). Here is one for a product by ChemMasters that appears to be similar to what you have in mind. Once you have a specific brand and product in mind it would be a good idea to search for “brandname productname MSDS.” This one seems a little flawed in that I didn’t see any info about temperatures above 100° except that “product is not combustable.” Certainly, toxic or noxious fumes could be released at some point of being actively on fire.
https://www.chemmasters.net/SDS/TextureDOT-VariousColors.pdf
-Tony

Offline Pod4477

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #418 on: September 16, 2019, 11:08:20 PM »
You are probably right about the toxicity spectrum but I suggest looking into the facts manufacturers are forced to disclose vis-a-vis the product’s MSDS (material safety data sheet). Here is one for a product by ChemMasters that appears to be similar to what you have in mind. Once you have a specific brand and product in mind it would be a good idea to search for “brandname productname MSDS.” This one seems a little flawed in that I didn’t see any info about temperatures above 100° except that “product is not combustable.” Certainly, toxic or noxious fumes could be released at some point of being actively on fire.
https://www.chemmasters.net/SDS/TextureDOT-VariousColors.pdf

Thank you!  I checked one out for the Gaco and good idea to look at it for this product.  I didn't know much about the MSDS, but awesome info.  Thank you for finding this.  It seems like it only has mild symptoms, which is good.  I feel that Melbourne Firebrick Company must have done some research in order to use and sell it, but not sure.  It will resist water, but not water proof though.  I put a thin layer of hydraulic cement on the entire roof.  I'm a bit weary as I had to put it on a bit soupy, but it hardened up the same and my idea is that along with the acrylic, it should be fine.

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Re: Wanting to build a coal fired style outdoor pizza oven
« Reply #419 on: September 18, 2019, 06:04:28 AM »
So I got the roof a bit more even with hydraulic cement and now just need to decide on a coating.  The roof is still fairly flat though, so I'm still debating what to use.  I will be running more fire tests, so see how hot the roof gets though, possibly before I use any coating/sealers. 

I'm also a bit weary of the winter with regards to the slab that the oven sits on.  I hope I went down deep enough below the frost line.  I believe we followed Forno Bravos recommendations, but in MA, I probably should have gone deeper.  My friend who did it assured me it was below frost. 
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 06:07:04 AM by Pod4477 »

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